Maya or Max for Environmental Modeling
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Sorry if this is in the wrong forum, it's my first post so I kind of struggled to know where to put it. Feel free to move it where ever is best. Anyway, I've got yet another take on the Max vs. Maya question that's been beaten into the ground. I haven't found an exact answer to this question anywhere so I thought I'd post.
Here's my dilemma: I'm trying to learn game environment modeling, and strictly game environment modeling, but I'm unsure of which tool to choose. I'm pretty old to be starting this, so I need to go about it in the most efficient way to avoid any common pitfalls. I started with the basics of Blender for a bit but after reading on Polycount it became clear that I should devote my time to a more established package if I wanted a job. I began by downloading Max and trying to do a basic beginning UV a crate kind of exercise from a book, which didn't work for one reason or another (it was probably material selection differences between 2011 and 2012). Anyhow, this lead me to go ahead and download Maya which I had a better time with. I'm up to creating simple geometry now and I generally like the workflow as it seems to be a lot like Blender.
However, during this period I also started reading Polycount more, which has been illuminating on multiple fronts. One of the things I've noticed is that while people generally answer "either Max or Maya, pick one" when asked the question, most of the people answering "Maya" are character artists and not environmental artists. This split also seems to be born out when you look at (good) tutorials. Most of the "make a game environment" tutorials seem to be Max based while the character tutorials seem to be Maya based. I also find that the Max game environment books are better than the Maya one (it seems that there's only one).
My end goal is to be able to model old things rather than modern ones, so I'll be using Mudbox along with Maya or Max. I'd like to end up doing the kind of stuff you'd see in a Tomb Raider series (I'm an archaeologist by trade, so I've got a history thing going on). My question then, is if I should just move back to Max as it seems to be more in use in environment modeling, or can I keep going in Maya and expect similar results? I figured It would be better to ask people who have an in depth knowledge of the applications before I dump more time into Maya. I'd like to avoid a scenario where I am not as competitive in game environment modeling because I chose the wrong tool.
Here's my dilemma: I'm trying to learn game environment modeling, and strictly game environment modeling, but I'm unsure of which tool to choose. I'm pretty old to be starting this, so I need to go about it in the most efficient way to avoid any common pitfalls. I started with the basics of Blender for a bit but after reading on Polycount it became clear that I should devote my time to a more established package if I wanted a job. I began by downloading Max and trying to do a basic beginning UV a crate kind of exercise from a book, which didn't work for one reason or another (it was probably material selection differences between 2011 and 2012). Anyhow, this lead me to go ahead and download Maya which I had a better time with. I'm up to creating simple geometry now and I generally like the workflow as it seems to be a lot like Blender.
However, during this period I also started reading Polycount more, which has been illuminating on multiple fronts. One of the things I've noticed is that while people generally answer "either Max or Maya, pick one" when asked the question, most of the people answering "Maya" are character artists and not environmental artists. This split also seems to be born out when you look at (good) tutorials. Most of the "make a game environment" tutorials seem to be Max based while the character tutorials seem to be Maya based. I also find that the Max game environment books are better than the Maya one (it seems that there's only one).
My end goal is to be able to model old things rather than modern ones, so I'll be using Mudbox along with Maya or Max. I'd like to end up doing the kind of stuff you'd see in a Tomb Raider series (I'm an archaeologist by trade, so I've got a history thing going on). My question then, is if I should just move back to Max as it seems to be more in use in environment modeling, or can I keep going in Maya and expect similar results? I figured It would be better to ask people who have an in depth knowledge of the applications before I dump more time into Maya. I'd like to avoid a scenario where I am not as competitive in game environment modeling because I chose the wrong tool.
Replies
The ease of learning environment modelling has nothing to do with the program you use. The program is only a tool. I started learning with Maya, learned Max a few years later but now I use Max at work.
My thoughts exactly. I feel like polycount should host a formal debate on Maya vs Max... and it should be like a TED talk or something. Could be awesome.
The answer would probably be "Modo."
Ok, then another good question would be what makes learning environment modeling easier? Are there three or four things you wish you would have known when you started?
I started with Maya at work, now my new job is 3DS Max. I use the same tools(different name) same output.
TED talk? We gotta reach the kids, so Epic Rap Battle.
Yeah, I'm old so I'd be TED. Plus I'm more of a Huey than a Riley. I guess I'll keep chugging on Maya. http://cgbylg.com/?p=204 is cool by the way, I'd like to find a tutorial on how to do that stair case.
EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY!
I was about to write out some rap battles for max/maya but I forgot I can rap. Spent 15 minutes trying to come up with something, all I came up with was a line about max's UI is dookie, it is a bigger waste of space than Jersey Shores Snooki.
I prefer to code each pixel output individually in assembly.
i tend to agree. someone needs to come up with some new cg related issues to send the art nerds into a rage. all this hippie drum circle business is a bit boring.
I feel like that's the worst advice I've ever seen someone give..........
MAX:Yo MAYA, Sukah Cant Do shit proper so You need a Tech artist to modify yah! Bitch I got Them Modifiers!
MAYA: Bitch please , Ever see a movie animated in yah? This is why Pixar will never love yah! Go home and Cry to your mom , and while your at it tell her to teach you how to snap your meshs to the grid!
lolol
"Blender has had a reputation of being difficult to learn for users accustomed to other 3D graphics software."
So maybe people who learned other apps first aren't the right people to give advice on what you should start with.
I learned on Maya but I switched to Max while doing an art test for a Max based studio. It took roughly 2 evenings of video tutorials to switch over, that was enough knowledge to finish an art test and get a job, I learned the rest on site.
I did technically learn Blender first. With Bmesh now there is essentially no qualitative difference between it and the basic the Maya modeling tools. If anything a lot of the Blender interface makes more intuitive sense if you don't know anything else. I think "extrude" and it's E, or S for scale, if you're an English speaker it's pretty intuitive. The problem with Blender is there are no good tutorials on game art workflow, at least for environmental stuff. I found myself going through tutorial and tutorial and not really finding a workflow that I could use. For 3ds Max or Maya there are 3 or 4 different sites that will teach me exactly what I want to know, so it saves a lot of time. Once I do have a handle on it, though I'd like to do a game art tutorial series in Blender.
There is a lot they could do to photoshop to make it more friendly to traditional artists like some of the other apps out there, like art rage. Or they could help lefties out by allowing us to use the ctrl-alt-shift buttons on the right side of the keyboard...
... mother fuckers... its been 10+ years get it together!
(I throw my Adobe mug on the floor hoping it will shatter, but it's carpeted so it doesn't actually break. This enrages me so I throw it at the window hoping to see it shatter on the sidewalk down below. But the window is bullet proof so it bounces back and hits me in the face... I say "you win adobe... for now" and go back to work)
yeah, less buggy tools, and alot of very good tutorials.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. The tutorials seem to be better. But that Cry Engine exporter for Maya looks really nice...
It doesn't matter.
that's the best advice. the only way to figure out which one is 'better' for you is to get a good grip on both tool sets. then you don't need to ask other people, you can make an informed decision based on which works better for you. and as a bonus you have broader understanding of modeling tools in general.
This... App is a tool. Like a hammer. Some people probably use brick instead of a hammer. Modelling is a modelling. You can use whatever tool you want. For env art choosing engine is more important. Modelling is straight forward... just model shit out.
As far as blender though........*shudders* i dont see that being much of a good idea
here ^^
started with blender, then later realized that it would take me nowhere, as the industry standards are mostly max and maya.
left blender a couple years ago, and now only use max.
blender was quite easy to learn, tbh. max has so much more subtleities. but if you take your time, learning max will give you way better results.
and yes, other 3d apps are quite different when compared to blender. dunno, they feel different. maybe its just me tho.
But yeah, if you feel more comfortable with Maya then use it!
Idk where other peoples have worked so far but until now i never had to switch from Maya to Max or any other package. Its good if you know the nuts and bolts of any major 3D or 2D package but they wont force you to learn a new program if you have a strong knowledge of another program that can do the same!
A little hardcore scenario:
The math is simple you're skilled in blender you can model nearly anything in no time, so now they say you have to learn Max or Maya since the rest of the department use it. You spend weeks on learning it, in that time you're more or less useless to the rest of the department. Until you are able to contribute efficiently to the rest of the team they loose valuable productivity. As long as they are not using a unique file format for their exports, you can use whatever you want as long as it supports the needed file format completely. But AGAIN! Its always good to know any major package so that you can switch to it if really needed.
Anyway back to topic if you choose Maya then i got the perfect tutorial for you to learn Env-Modeling in Maya! Its by far the best i've ever seen, he goes over any useful technique to create assets in Maya and you will see that Maya could be extremely useful for hard-surface too
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/955/
You are so white. And yes that's the first and possibly the last time I will ever say that.
made my day
^^This.^^
Each have pros and cons, just try both and the one you feel more comfortable with wins.
Me!
I have decided to go with Max. I do have Maya too, and the spacebar menu seems neat, but other than that, it feels alien to me. I mean, it took me a while to get a cube to the screen and select different polygons. Max in the other hand feels "heavy" ,but the good thing is that i usually can find what i try to look for. But comparing to Blender, i still don't get some of the things there. Like i would like it to have the same moving style, not to jerk the gizmos all the time. Also extruding is something i don't really get yet. When i want to extrude multiple faces or edges, it gives me weird results.. Blender just.. you know.. extrudes the faces or edges..
And i agree about the earlier post saying it is important to learn Photoshop. There's a hint of thruth there. I mean, you can have as golden mesh as you want but it won't look good or work if you put shitty texture to it. But you can make a ,lets say, lowpoly mesh look awesome with good texture.
But Max's cool. I'd vote for Max.
BlenderCookie has some. And the workflow doesn't differ from any other package so it can be practiced without blender specific tutorials no problem..
If you're working at a studio that rolls its own tools, this definitely isn't true, and even then, I can't see many studios that would support a split-software architecture as it makes moving from modeling to animation really difficult. Maybe, maybe on the environment art side, but this seems really fallacious to me.
Have other people worked at a studio where this is the case?
It doesn't matter which piece of software you use, but I feel more studios are moving towards Maya as it has better pipeline support (better scripting with Python and MEL compared to Maxscript, and the ability to get your engine running in the viewport means you can author assets to be in-game accurate in Maya, rather than needing to go to an intermediary software/engine tool to adjust shaders, lighting, etc.
That said, Max and Maya are industry standards, so learn both.
lulz.
Sure, if you're a offsite freelancer you can use whatever you want but if you're on site a Max studio isn't going to spring the extra cash to buy you a Maya license
Said best above.
However, the best package to use, in my opinion, is Softimage XSI. Encredible streamlined modeling and rendering workflow.
Yeah, I wish. Honestly I have the mod tool and it seems like the most...um....parsimonious way to model. Especially on the grid. However, I haven't seen any jobs posted for it aside from those in the VFX fields.
As for now I think I'll probably stick with Maya. It's closer to Blender in workflow style and I find I can move pretty easily between the two with the same-ish results. I think Blender is going to become more important as the the mobile market expands, too, with Unity. I can't afford a Maya/Max license which would be important if I wanted to freelance in the future, so I think the my goal is to learn Maya / Blender concurrently.
Also, it looks to me like they might have fixed the baking problem in a recent patch, and along with the GSoC improvements (see sushi and bratwurst) Blender really isn't that far apart from the Autodesk stuff for personal use. Also see BSurfaces.
But anyway, thanks for the help. If anyone else is reading this thread with the same question, if I could do it over I probably would have started with 3ds Max because of the tutorial availability alone. Still, I'm finding that I can do most of the Max tutorials in Maya and it helps me learn the tools that much better.
Hit Register in the upper right corner, fill out the form and choose Unemployed. Continue to step 2, 3 and confirm your email.
Now you're able to download legal any software you want for free. Of course for personal use only.
Thanks Autodesk
Student licenses (which I have for both Max and Maya) are non-commercial only. So if I wanted to sell any model I made I would have to fork over 4100 bucks (or pounds, I'm in the UK atm, they really get you coming and going) for Maya and Mudbox. It's my primary reason for learning Blender at the same time.