How do they do the creases movement on games like Fifa?

kunglao

Hi,
I was wondering how they do the crease movement on games like Fifa when a player is moving?
It looks like the normal map, is code switching between 2 different nor maps to create this effect?
I only tend to see it on the back area of the shirt.Games like Max Payne 3 do this too.
Any info would be great,thanks.

poopinmymouth

One way to do it, is to have two sets of normal maps, one wrinkled all over, one unwrinkled all over. Then you can store masks in the vertex color channels (or use an actual RGB map) to define where the wrinkles should appear, and use the bone rotations to drive the fade in and out. It's not something you can readily plug in to max or maya, but would require a little bit of scripting.

Mark Dygert

From what I understand its mostly handled through code much in the same way joint angle morphs are used in Max to correct wonky geometry in poorly deforming areas.

The angles between the bones drive blended materials. I personally use the "wrinkle map" approach at work but on faces. We handle it all inside of max using composite maps wired to a control board. Here is an old post on the subject:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1048033#post1048033

Damien_B

Does anyone have examples of this being done for muscle flexing?

dii

Red dead redemtion does it for their horses also, looks incredible.

Damien_B

dii: I agree.
perna:
I've got a understanding on the tech. Seen the Fight Night*. I just would like to see some examples like, skin folding on the back of the neck when the head tilts back, or the sides of the neck when the head rotates, or back muscle actions, and pectoral actions as the arms move. Yadda yadda.

Damien_B

I'd like to see some extreme blending of nm's. I don't play too many games, but will check out any suggestions on the topic.

edit- found some examples
http://www.damienbrown.net/Anim_Tests/

jimmypopali

dii wrote: »

Red dead redemtion does it for their horses also, looks incredible.

I was going to say this. I'm so glad they took this approach, because it does indeed look amazing and very evident. I think any trailer to RDR has evidence of this.

Rick Stirling

Also check out the clothing on Max Payne 3.

faizanali

I seriously don't think that they're animated normal maps, I think that it's just simple cloth simulation. I assume that they've applied cloth physics to the character's cloth and then they've individually attached it to the mesh. Any insight on this would be appreciated, please prove me wrong. I wanted to know how all this worked.

faizanali

I seriously don't think that they're animated normals, I think that it's just simple cloth simulation. I assume that they've applied cloth simulation to the character's cloth and then attached it individually to the mesh. Any insight on this would be appreciated.

poopipe

Cloth sims are expensive and unpredictable. Blended normal maps are cheap and predictable

I know what id be using

Damien_B

My guess would be a lerp shader, and a bone rig for cloth movement.

Eric Chadwick

If anyone would have insight it would be Rick. Not sure if he can share though.

Mark Dygert

faizanali wrote: »

I seriously don't think that they're animated normals, I think that it's just simple cloth simulation. I assume that they've applied cloth simulation to the character's cloth and then attached it individually to the mesh. Any insight on this would be appreciated.

Cloth sims are normally good at hanging and dangling but not so good at wrinkling and bunching, they tend to get very buggy when they do bunch up. Not to mention you need pretty dense geometry to create wrinkles.

There is a lot going on when a sim is running. collision detection, shape correction, friction, self penetration. A lot can go wrong and the more you lock it down trying to mitigate those random situations the less it looks like cloth.

So it is probably a mix of the both. For example Alan wake had a simulation for his coat tails that was running in realtime as the character moved around, responding to what the players did. But the wrinkles around the knees or around the shoulders would not be cloth simmed. I don't think they even did animated normal maps in those areas.

So if you see some realistic hang and dangle, it MIGHT be a sim. If you see wrinkles it MIGHT be an animated normal map. Of course as we move into stronger hardware and are able to use some techniques pioneered last decade we might see some clothing that tessellates and wrinkles on the fly, but that all depends on how important it is to the overall game.

There isn't one way to always do something.
It's not like there is a giant game developers bible that dictates every step of every process and everyone always fallows it to the letter. There are common ways of working but often you have to tweak and blend methods while coming up with something new to get what you want. Often that requires doing some research on your own and coming up with a method that works for your game/engine.

That's the difference between hiring someone who follows rules blindly and hiring someone who can actually write new rules.

faizanali

Mark Dygert wrote: »

Cloth sims are normally good at hanging and dangling but not so good at wrinkling and bunching, they tend to get very buggy when they do bunch up. Not to mention you need pretty dense geometry to create wrinkles.

There is a lot going on when a sim is running. collision detection, shape correction, friction, self penetration. A lot can go wrong and the more you lock it down trying to mitigate those random situations the less it looks like cloth.

So it is probably a mix of the both. For example Alan wake had a simulation for his coat tails that was running in realtime as the character moved around, responding to what the players did. But the wrinkles around the knees or around the shoulders would not be cloth simmed. I don't think they even did animated normal maps in those areas.

So if you see some realistic hang and dangle, it MIGHT be a sim. If you see wrinkles it MIGHT be an animated normal map. Of course as we move into stronger hardware and are able to use some techniques pioneered last decade we might see some clothing that tessellates and wrinkles on the fly, but that all depends on how important it is to the overall game.

There isn't one way to always do something.
It's not like there is a giant game developers bible that dictates every step of every process and everyone always fallows it to the letter. There are common ways of working but often you have to tweak and blend methods while coming up with something new to get what you want. Often that requires doing some research on your own and coming up with a method that works for your game/engine.

That's the difference between hiring someone who follows rules blindly and hiring someone who can actually write new rules.

Excellent explanation. I had assumed it to be simulation because I've been goofing around with the cloth in 3DS Max. And found how realistic the folds were with complex geometry. It was running in real-time. But your post made me realize that it's complicated. Also check out FIFA 14 on next-gen consoles. They seem to be using cloth for real this time, although awfully simple geometry to the point where it's not causing any folds.

And sorry for the late reply.