To college or not to college
polycounter lvl 11
I have a friend who is pushing me towards going to Digipen here in the US. Id love to be a character artist and have time to study and all that jazz, but im stuck between if being a games artist is worth it.
Im only 17.
heres where I am with character art in general:
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4iu986
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3ir0dc
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d46vx32
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4z8rvg
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3gnzcd
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3go01f
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3gnzxb
heres all my crap
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/
So in general:
The odds of getting a decent job and not hop around the US looking for work so often? Of course I wouldn't mind doing it so much as im young, but Id really like for it to slow down.
The experience of college & debt vs self learning?
and then some digipen specifics mentioned by my friend
Odds of getting a job with one of the "350+" or so studios around digipen
Odds of going into an indie team with classmates or being hired by other grads
He happily pointed out you can't go through life without debt and you just need to enjoy life and do what you want to do.. which is true.
Ive argued that a strong portfolio is good enough for a job without a degree, but he argued a degree is more likely to land you a job and give you more experience with the industry. $3k for every eat3d/gnomon vid vs 50k debt is pretty close in quality, but not good for the experience of working with others.
So how much of this is true and how much of this is just statistics thrown around to promote the college? Considering I had only heard of fullsail, scad, and the Ai and never heard of Digipen.
Thanks!
Im only 17.
heres where I am with character art in general:
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4iu986
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3ir0dc
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d46vx32
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d4z8rvg
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3gnzcd
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3go01f
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d3gnzxb
heres all my crap
http://frell262.deviantart.com/gallery/
So in general:
The odds of getting a decent job and not hop around the US looking for work so often? Of course I wouldn't mind doing it so much as im young, but Id really like for it to slow down.
The experience of college & debt vs self learning?
and then some digipen specifics mentioned by my friend
Odds of getting a job with one of the "350+" or so studios around digipen
Odds of going into an indie team with classmates or being hired by other grads
He happily pointed out you can't go through life without debt and you just need to enjoy life and do what you want to do.. which is true.
Ive argued that a strong portfolio is good enough for a job without a degree, but he argued a degree is more likely to land you a job and give you more experience with the industry. $3k for every eat3d/gnomon vid vs 50k debt is pretty close in quality, but not good for the experience of working with others.
So how much of this is true and how much of this is just statistics thrown around to promote the college? Considering I had only heard of fullsail, scad, and the Ai and never heard of Digipen.
Thanks!
Replies
with assignments and deadlines constantly pushing me through school, i learned to manage my time and get work done efficiently and quickly. the team experiences are also good, but bear in mind there are more than likely others who are not going to work as hard as you.. on the reverse there will probably be some who may work harder than you.
as far as debt and things goes it isnt such a big deal.. its part of life. and for the degree.. im surprised to see a lot of companies lately putting that into their requirements for jobs..so it may be best to get one. what id say is go to a school thats in a hub for the game industry and get feedback from alumni who got jobs.. most people from schools (AIFL included) will tell you the school sucks because it didnt get them a job. the closer you are to the job.. the easier it may be to get one.
if you do decide to go to a school.. just be sure to surround yourself with those who are like you.. people who are passionate about working. avoid slackers and dont let them get to you. and just be sure to work work work work work! you're 17.. you've got plenty of time to polish your skills.
BUT - there is a lot to be learned at school. I mean, everything you need to know can be learned and self-taught at home. But the most important thing school gave me was guidance. Before I went to school I only had a limited idea of what I could teach or learn myself.It sounds strange, but going to college really showed me how much I could learn outside of school, on my own.
On top of that, you meet a lot of good contacts, people that could vary well be future coworkers, or your competition. Plus, it doesn't hurt to be forced to learn stuff you wouldn't do on your own, either.
I know people will argue about this, but personally I feel like practicing some traditional drawing fundamentals like drawing perspective, figure drawing, and sculpting are very important foundations for a 3d artist to learn, and it's kind of nice that most schools will make you go through this. General education subjects can help make you more well-rounded as well.
It's really up to you, and what you feel you need. I personally needed school to put me in the right mindset to have a successful future, but not everyone does. Just the fact that you post here on polycount is a sign that you're on the right track. If you think you can motivate yourself to learn and practice a lot over the next few years without spending thousands of dollars on college, by all means do it.
Earning a degree MAY or MAY NOT prepare you for work you'll be doing at a studio. Earning a degree by going to classes and getting your stuff done on time at high quality will teach you time management and management of expectations regarding the quality and volume of your work.
If you're thinking of going to college to do something related to game art, pursue getting a traditional art education instead. Most game art programs are designed as diploma mills and their output is mostly crap portfolios and unrealistic expectations.
Taking traditional art classes will teach you about composition, color theory, anatomy and other fundamental and highly important skills that you're extremely unlikely to earn in a game art program.
“We’ve bought into the idea that education is about training and “success”, defined monetarily, rather than learning to think critically and to challenge. We should not forget that the true purpose of education is to make minds, not careers. A culture that does not grasp the vital interplay between morality and power, which mistakes management techniques for wisdom, which fails to understand that the measure of a civilization is its compassion, not its speed or ability to consume, condemns itself to death.”
-Chris Hedges
tldr: Everything everyone above is true, but don't dismiss it. The piece of paper is worth it. EDIT: Just not from a hella expensive school... debt = bad.
So it seems I shouldn't think of education as being connected to the industry, do it for the experience and not necessarily expect to learn something new and just be motivated to improve?
Saying "I'm not going to school anymore" when you turn 18 can be dangerous.
Go to community college for 2 years while building your portfolio. Try to take major in something relevant like computer science so you can have a back up plan if you can't get a job in the game field as an artist. Apply for artists jobs while in community college. Trust me, you will have time to work on your portfolio while in community college..it's a joke.
I personally approve of college, as long as your learning what you need and your not spending an arm and a leg to do so.
Basically, a community college with good professors doing classes like figure drawing, color theory and stuff like that would be a good way to go. But getting a profesor is extremely important. I was lucky enough to have good teachers that really pushed the class to improve their work and learn what they really need. And I don't owe any debt either (though I still did the general ed stuff and got some associates degrees, but for art those aren't needed.)
There are enough online tutorials and sites like Ctrl+Paint that can help guide you enough to improve on your own.
Now, how many of you posting to not go DID go to school? Can you tell me how your life would have been without the experience of school? Would a traditional degree at a community college be the same?
Most artists I met in previous jobs had some sort of schooling, either in digital art or traditional.
In my career I only really remember a single guy who had no art education at all - his advantage? 4 years more industry experience than anyone else. Even though he was a good artist, he wasn't that much better than other people.
Main advantage of a degree? work all around the world!
I have learned more once i got out of school from this forum, dvd;s then i did from any teacher. Thing that sucks is by the time you figure out the teachers all suck, your already massively in debt. They do not have to teach you anything and you still have to pay them back. They are for profit and could care less about your actual education
I went to school, 2 associates degrees. While they helped me improve artwise, the actual degree doesn't help, and considering that most classes to get the degrees were general ed credits I would say I could have spent that extra time and money elsewhere. Money wise it wasn't bad though, I was in the honors program so I got first pick of classes even as a freshmen and even then it was about $100-$200 a semester.
I will say though that going to community college helped me network a little and helped me get some graphic design jobs. I can't really say how well it would help with a game industry job since I'm not really looking to apply anywhere currently.
I will say that my 2D Design/ Color Theory class was definitely worth it. Learned a bunch of useful stuff and my teacher pushed everyone pretty hard throughout the whole semester.
Also figure drawing courses are a great thing to go to, even if you don't plan on getting a degree, because I think figuring drawing with an actual model can be better than trying to practice through pictures.
In retrospect I wish I'd gone... If for nothing else I think the social experience would have been really valuable for me personally cause I'm really socially retarded. You make contacts, meet people with similar interests/aspirations, etc. Being surrounded by people like that is also really motivating, especially if you're very competitive.
Everyone has already pointed out a degrees not going to get you a job, but I think there's more to school than the degree and you really have to decide on your own because it's so subjective. Some people can't motivate themselves to work hard without external pressures like debt and deadlines... Especially if they're coming home from work, do they really want to sit down and spend another 4+ hours grinding out painting studies? Or would they rather go out drinking with friends or play a video game instead? I mean it's flattering to think we're all super excited to make art on our own time and really self-motivated because art is what is most important to all of us... but I don't think that's usually the case.. and if you want to put some seroius pressure on yourself to work hard, throwing down 80 grand on it is a great commitment device.
If you really are so self motivated that you can do it on your own, and you're socialbe/personable enough to make friends and contacts via the internet, then schools probably a waste of money.
A lot of this is just grass is greener shit. There's a good chance no matter what you do you're going to regret it.. Allegedly 32% of all peoples regrets are about education, people who don't get much wish they got more, people who get a lot wish they'd gotten less, people wish they studied something else, and so on...
Well straight out of high school I was referred to a local graphic design job by my art teacher and I've been here ever since doing 2d work. I also submitted my portfolio for another full time job and said "if this job is still available ill send my resume" they told me to call back as soon as possible and said if I want the job I can have it and if I want it in the future they're always looking for "my talent". They do 3D Medical rendering for medical websites and its located on a college campus lab. Its more geared towards 3d which I enjoy more, so ill be switching to it soon. They even offered more per hour to compensate for the 3x longer commute than my current job.
@dii, you pretty much summed up my exact decision on to go or not. Experience and debt... or no experience. I am sort of socially retarded ever since my second move during highschool, but if I want socializing would community college be a comparable experience?
Like it has been said at least a thousand times before, if you have to, or just really want to go to school, go to a traditional art school. Go for sculpting/drawing/illustration/painting, and take one of those as a minor, and then take 2 shit tons of ecorche classes. A bonus with a traditional art school, you can sign up for extra classes to suit your needs. Take ecorche studies, life drawing, painting, sculpting, these will help you immensely, and will teach in-depth anatomy, color theory, form, and function, which just so happen to be some of the most important things to being a character artist.
A lot of the problems I see in your work are not technical issues, they are artistic issues. Most game art schools teach people how to use a program, how to bake a normal map, how to use shaders, but not how to be a good artist. At least a traditional art school will help push you towards the realizations that come with becoming a good artist.
I hate game art schools so much :poly127:
The most important thing I work on now, is my huge lack of artistic understanding between myself and my colleagues. I am technically savvy, (thanks to PC):) but I'm also artistically retarded, thanks to working for years on the idea that technical know-how is one of the most important aspects to being an ARTIST... Funny how simple it seems to me now.:poly142:
No matter what you do, just keep creating art. I'd say to model yourself after this guy:
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114449
^^One of the most inspirational threads I've seen, just due to how much hard work this guy put into art, and how much he got back.
I would think that if you were looking to make professional contacts it's probably not as good (for the game industry at least) as a school offering more geared toward entertainment art (like Feng Zhu's school would probably be way better for making professional contacts...) But if you're just looking for a place to meet/talk to others interested in art it's probably pretty close. There just might be fewer students who are the same age as you.
Also I don't know where you are but you should look around for workshops and classes specific to entertainment art. It may not replace learning fundamentals at a community college but it'd be a good addition and you'll meet more people. Like there's Schoolism in Toronto where a lot of amazing illustrators and concept artists hold workshops, Futurepoly in Seattle which afaik is mostly Arenanet artists, and probably other sweet shit in other places too so make sure you look around to see what you can find in your area.
I personally did this weird thing where I majored in film and wrangled through humanities and sciences classes instead of studying art. Developing a game art portfolio was left as a personal venture, and I found that fact to be extremely frightening in a motivational way. Somewhere, miles away, I knew there were classrooms of kids just working on game art 24/7 and I have/had to compete with that.
If you really want to get yourself in an experience that will force you to grow thicker skin, Summer internships proved to be a tremendous help. Art Internships in games aren't some bullshit where you fetch food for fat devs. In my experience, I was paid shit money for the awesome experience of flying out somewhere to work on real projects that more often than not had me tackling some scary creative challenges. I felt like a different person after every job, and I'd highly recommend getting in on these as soon as you can.
I'm sure people in this thread have already mentioned that school does allot of things for you socially. I'm a pretty introverted guy - so I really enjoyed not having to go out of my way to hang out. Friends were constantly around and the collaborative experiences of working on films and other projects are incredibly relevant to working in a studio. In fact, you'll find that the majority of studio jobs depend on your ability to team play and express ideas/frustrations clearly.
they will make the most dramatic improvement on your 3d work.
EDIT: i guess the point in all that was that its good to be in that sort of environment surounded by people that are all doing art but in the end the certificate or what ever you get doesnt mean shit. In my opinion college is good for at least a year then if you want to continue you will.
I agree with whats said here. In my opinion, an 'education' in game design will get you no where in this industry, (since your portfolio is what will get you a job). An actual, real, credible education is invaluable - Business, Computer Science or whatever else will go much farther on your resume than Game Design will if you ever apply for a non-game related job/career.
Story:
You will all probably hate me so much for this but I get to go to my current college for free, because my mother works here. It is a small no-named college and I am majoring in Graphic Design, something I am not that fond of, my parents are making me go and get a degree, I am in my third year here but I am a semester behind... soo 2 and a half years left? maybe more?...anyways I am not sure what to do and this has been on my mind bothering me for a good few months, if a big studio is interested in hiring me full0time should I leave school and take the job? or stay in school? I honestly hate the community here at my college and the faculty is not that great. I felt that I haven't learned ANYTHING here... Would I regret not finishing in the long run? or by that time would I have enough experience in the industry with a big studio to have employers pass over the degree part?Any suggestions, thoughts?
Thanks
I guess whatever you did worked out for you though aajohnny
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I went to an Art school; all I got out of it are: some good friends, discovering polycount, and a bachelors degree that has only really been useful for when I worked outside the country.
That's all a bachelors is really good for in this industry.
If you have a passion for game art, then you definitely have the drive needed to learn on your own.
Like LMP has said, a degree is only useful when seeking employment internationally, it seems like.
Don't go to college expecting to have it make you a good artist, it won't. Only you can make yourself a good artist. College is an experience and I think it is hugely worth it so long as you approach it in that manner. Community College however is not worth it, unless you want to have a cheaper bill and transfer into a 4 year school later with all the pointless classes out of the way.
So..... you're saying it's worth all the money in the world.
If I could go back in time, I'd either never enroll in a university, or I'd spend two years at my local community college first. I've only taken a handful of classes at my local community college (Calculus 2, Discrete, and a few others during highschool) but the classes were much more enjoyable because the professors actually cared about teaching whereas at my university, professors look like lifeless husks that are waiting to die. I especially loved taking Calculus 2. University math made me think that I hated all math, but my community college professor actually made me go home and think "Wow, I can't wait to get some problems done today!" Never before have I actually enjoyed doing math homework!
I'm sure every person will have a different experience but I think everybody should spend at least a year working on developing a skill before jumping head first into a potentially terrible phase of their life.
They tend to happen when people dont really search the polycount for such guide. There are probably more then 20 threads and this thing has been discussed in the past.
I think the question really occurs is if not college, then how, or where to.
Truth be told. College or Univ isnt going to give you anything that you dont already have, nor it will promise you a job.
Experience will.
The only times you go to college is when you want to be a Lawyer, Doctor, Engineer (Of any sort but Software,) Accountant, and so on.
For stuff like CG and programming the resources are available to you online.
You keep practicing until you get it, you follow the other artists who havent been to college and ended up working for bigger game projects or became famous based on their own skills.
Going to school might not teach you next gen techniques and all the fancy stuff, not every teacher might be art director in a famous studio, but you got a lot of people around who are mostly as dedicated as you to really get into the industry.. constantly pushing each other.
Sure.. it's possible to self teach yourself and get along with tutorials, but you will miss out on a lot of art basics and stuff you need to do for college, you wouldn't have touched otherwise. A good foundation improves all aspects of art, 3D.. 2D.. doesn't really matter.
I might not have gone to the best school there is, but I'm pretty sure I've come further this way than I would have without going there. I'm the kind of guy who needs some deadlines to really lean into something. And I'm not lazy at all.. but peer pressure has a positive impact.
You go there to meet and connect with peers. It's almost like working in a studio, you must get to know the other people you are sitting next to.
I agree with the foundations part. It is really helpful to learn the basics of art (although they can be learned elsewhere for less $$). Also, being critiqued constantly is good, as I wasn't the best at receiving critique a few years ago.
I heavily disagree with the other students being as dedicated. There are a lot of people who don't really push themselves.
I went to university and now have the debts to show it. I'l provide a quick breakdown of what I see as the pros and cons of going.
PROS:
1: I got to meet a great bunch of people. Seriously, besides the learning university is a fantastic way to meet people from different backgrounds. college is fun!
2: Pressured to be motivated, no matter what. The idea of wasting all that money by slacking off from studying is pretty big (or atleast was to me). if you find it hard to work on your portfolio and skills without becoming distracted, then maybe a classroom environment is for you.
3: Resources. Your school should be able to provide you with resources, hopefully with 24 hour access. I got to use motion capture suits, audio studios, green screens, free loan of top range photography gear, 3d printing. The stuff thats available is great, just ask and usually its ok to use!
4: Access to life drawing classes. Where I lived, there wasn't much in the way of art classes. At my university though I was able to attend 2 or 3 times a week with great tuition to go with it.
5: Time. Going to university/college gives you time. You won't be working a job while trying to cram art into your free time. By doing a degree which is art relevant you basically give yourself 3 years of hardcore art grind time. use this to learn fundamentals and eventually bust out a good portfolio to help get jobs in the end.
6: Connections - usually there are lots of networking events setup by your school to help you ease your way into the industry. I didn't really attend many of these, but the ones I did attend proved valuable and helped me get an internship which helped me into the industry greatly.
CONS
1: PRICE. Shit man, its expensive (especially in the states I hear, not so bad here in the UK). Be prepared to have a large overhead once you leave the college/uni. For UK the repayment is very flexible though and you dont really notice it coming from your wages too much.
2: Dealing with shit teachers. Those who can't do, Teach. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL TEACHERS! I KNOW SOME GREAT & INSPIRING LECTURERS. BUT... it does seem to apply to a lot of them. You will encounter and possible "out level" some teachers who have become too comfy in their jobs to keep up to date with software, techniques etc etc. This can often feel like a slap in the face when you sit in class for 2 hours, learn nothing and think that the class just cost you about 80 quid...
3: Distractions. Yes, its a great motivator if you are focused on the tasks. But there is so many parties to go to, drinks to be drunk and dance floors to fill... Have a good time sure, but don't be hung over every day not doing art :P *speaks from experience*
That sums up my experience really, hopefully it was useful to somebody. All in all, being surrounded by like minded people will help you greatly and strengthen you as an individual and an artist. Good luck!