Everybody has to start some place. But the thing is, those new starters? You can't make a game with them. You will just end up digging this hole that gets deeper and deeper.
What you have in the 76 or so threads here, isn't so much new guys that dont know what they are doing... Its new guys who dont know what they are doing, that just will not listen to advice given to them by people that, frankly, do.
Have you not noticed by now people have just given up helping? You're posting models that are made with no regard to anything other than "Hey I made a tea pot in max, I can do an entire game!", while pretty much telling everybody to shut up while ASKING for advice... That you end up ignoring.
Nobody has told you straight, but its about time they did. Art isn't about pumping out a billion really piss poor assets and not learning a thing in the process... This things doomed to fail before its even out of the gate.
Sorry man. I don't see your point. He refined the tire. He is looking to refine the bongos. What are you getting at? The guy has finals pretty soon and he is basically doing assets quickly and will get back to refining them after he passes.
I mean if you want to hate on a guy for that, that's your choice. I think it's just kind of mean.
You should show us your UV maps and i would recommend you to start learning subd modeling.You should pay attention on your polycount and how and where you use your polygons.
Please let these people make goodlooking assets from start to finish. Modeling plus texture. That way when your project grinds to a halt, they'll at least have some portfolio items.
Please let these people make goodlooking assets from start to finish. Modeling plus texture. That way when your project grinds to a halt, they'll at least have some portfolio items.
Sorry. The iOS version is practically finished and we don't feel like stopping. Motion capture session next week.
Additionally, Mihai is almost done with his contributions to the project. He just has to wrap up a jungle gym and the water skis. After that he will make time to go back and optimize all seven of his assets that will go into this project.
We don't post iOS models here. But since you're leaving, drive safe.
---
Edit:
At this point I think I have to call you out on a couple of things because your negativity has reached comical levels. Getting this much shit from a guy who's project was denied entry on Kickstarter, was banned from NeoGAF, and has failed on IndieGoGo is hard to believe. Listen man. If you want to offer constructive feedback - thank you. If you want to post Seinfeld gifs while your project languishes on IndieGoGo, maybe you're the one who has to get their priorities sorted out.
I'm happy with how things are proceeding and I publicly want to thank Mihai for the effort he's putting in for us. They may not be the best models you've seen but goddamn it - he is trying.
You on the other hand better get back to tweaking the Quake 2 engine and its infinite hues of brown that you've been trying to get right on the first try for the last three years.
1 - The OD page is already set up on kickstarter and is waiting on me to hit "go".
2 - I was banned from Gaf BECAUSE OverDose had an IndieGogo page; Something you'll notice is now common place but wasn't at the time.
3 - Where did OD fail..? Not only does it have a few weeks left, but we have ZERO gameplay on there. I would say thats pretty good.
Like I said... Keep on ignoring advice, its really no sweat off my sack
Listen. Let me be straightforward with you. I think you're a sociopath. That is just being honest with you. You stopped giving advice after the first page and I don't think you even realize that.
01. It may be. But you're a liar and here is why you went with IndieGoGo first:
02. It may be. But you're a liar and here is why you were banned from NeoGaf:
Listen. We do not want to deal with you.
If you had any self-respect, when a person says go away, you would leave. Well go away. Shoo. Work on your project. Leave us alone. If you post here again, you won't be responded to. At this point, we've talked about it among the team and have decided that there is clearly something wrong with you and that we're not going to deal with your nonsense any more. Any further posts here that do no directly relate to helping Mihai improve his assets will be reported.
You should show us your UV maps and i would recommend you to start learning subd modeling.You should pay attention on your polycount and how and where you use your polygons.
Can you link any good tutorials for subd modeling?
The iOS version is practically finished and we don't feel like stopping. Motion capture session next week.
With all due respect, if you're still going to mocap, I don't think it's "practically finished" - you've got to clean up the data, too. Also, weren't you using CryEngine? So what's this about iOS?
I'd really like to see what you guys are working on but all I can find are a dead forum and this youtube channel:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4UfQ8e1ie4"]Slaughter House FPS Unity Test - YouTube[/ame]
which consists mostly of a guy (you?) holding a machete in his living room. Seriously, it's like 70 videos of that.
With all due respect, if you're still going to mocap, I don't think it's "practically finished" - you've got to clean up the data, too. Also, weren't you using CryEngine? So what's this about iOS?
I'd really like to see what you guys are working on but all I can find are a dead forum and this youtube channel: Slaughter House FPS Unity Test - YouTube
which consists mostly of a guy (you?) holding a machete in his living room. Seriously, it's like 70 videos of that.
I'm just really confused.
Well I'd be glad to explain it to you mate.
There are two teams.
The first team is collaborating on developing the iOS version up and running. This is being developed in Unity. This team consists of seven people. What I was referring to when I said "practically finished" is the coding. We've got the AI cleared up and are implementing the store kit.
The second team is collaborating on getting the assets together for the PC version. We're making great progress over the past week and have gotten number of assets together. The artists who do a great job of optimizing - I don't ask them to post here. The ones who create assets that are too high in poly count or don't look right, I ask they post here for feedback. I also don't ask anyone to do more than ten assets for the project. This is primarily so that no one encounters any burnout working with us.
Over the past week we've gotten 22 unoptimized assets together for the PC side. This is better progress than I had hoped for and I cannot state how undeniably happy I am at our progress. As assets needed are completed, we will begin to block out our world in CryEngine. If certain things don't fit into the level design, they will be removed. Others will be optimized further. That is currently our plan.
The website has been dead for nearly two years. It will be some time before we revamp it. We also don't use the forums for development because Skype, Google Docs, and Dropbox are much more efficient for our workflow.
The YouTube account is where will be adding additional videos regarding the project. The reference videos are just that. Reference. They were there for the team to communicate and choose which animations we liked the best and which we didn't like at all. Thus when Xeno setups his mocap rig - he would know what we wanted.
In all honesty, 70 videos seems far less than what we should have. I don't understand your disbelief. We imagine most development studios have far more reference footage for their animators then we took. The only difference is that they wouldn't necessarily have publicly uploaded all that footage for individuals such as yourself to look after.
I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have?
Im confused as to why you did the motion capture? you could have hand animated it and it would have looked 100 times better?
Xeno is going to take the motion capture animations and run through them by hand. The Burlap Killer is already rigged. The player model was just finished earlier this week and will be rigger as soon as he is free. After the motion capture - things will be cleaned up and fine-tuned by hand. What is there on YouTube is a very rough initial version. We'll be going at it again in a bigger studio next time.
well, you did ask for feedback on your approach at the start of page two.
in this case, odium and the others are right. pumping out a ton of assets fast with intent to edit later will only lead to poor quality in the end. in my experience, the edits rarely happen and the artists hate coming back to assets which were marked as complete--i know i do! in addition, you stated:
As assets needed are completed, we will begin to block out our world in CryEngine. If certain things don't fit into the level design, they will be removed.
this is backwards compared to how production actually works. you're essentially having the artists waste time stockpiling assets that you know might be trashed before the level has even gone into a blockout stage! whitebox/blockout should always happen first to nail down gameplay, then determine an asset list based on level design and concept art, then make important assets to set the mood, then fill out the scene with smaller things as need be. this way you're only making what you need, so quality increases because you spend more time on what matters.
want to push out a good looking demo in a month? make a plan, then simplify! what's important in our scene? what does the player touch? what can be modular? is there really a need for multiple styles of crates right now? can we make a generic PSD with a few great looking materials instead of custom making them all per object? these are some examples of things to be thinking of.
people always blame bad art on "time constraints", but that's a load of crap! you're much better off figuring out exactly what matters ahead of time and make that look great, rather than stockpiling poor assets which might be trashed anyway. less of the good thing is ALWAYS better than more of the bad thing.
in closing: dude, stop running defense. nobody is trying to personally attack you, but in response you've personally attacked someone. don't forget, you did ask for feedback on your approach in page two and you've been defending against the advice you've gotten ever since. people say this forum is harsh all the time, but it's really not. people here mostly know what they're doing so i'd listen to them, and right now they're saying stockpiling bad/average assets is not the answer. just don't take everything as an attack and you'll be on your way to making the video games in no time!
also from a quick google i notice there's a few threads like this one asking for feedback. you say you don't ask the good artists to post for feedback--how about you start a central thread and show us the awesome parts of your project?
well, you did ask for feedback on your approach at the start of page two.
in this case, odium and the others are right. pumping out a ton of assets fast with intent to edit later will only lead to poor quality in the end. in my experience, the edits rarely happen and the artists hate coming back to assets which were marked as complete--i know i do! in addition, you stated:
this is backwards compared to how production actually works. you're essentially having the artists waste time stockpiling assets that you know might be trashed before the level has even gone into a blockout stage! whitebox/blockout should always happen first to nail down gameplay, then determine an asset list based on level design and concept art, then make important assets to set the mood, then fill out the scene with smaller things as need be. this way you're only making what you need, so quality increases because you spend more time on what matters.
want to push out a good looking demo in a month? make a plan, then simplify! what's important in our scene? what does the player touch? what can be modular? is there really a need for multiple styles of crates right now? can we make a generic PSD with a few great looking materials instead of custom making them all per object? these are some examples of things to be thinking of.
people always blame bad art on "time constraints", but that's a load of crap! you're much better off figuring out exactly what matters ahead of time and make that look great, rather than stockpiling poor assets which might be trashed anyway. less of the good thing is ALWAYS better than more of the bad thing.
in closing: dude, stop running defense. nobody is trying to personally attack you, but in response you've personally attacked someone. don't forget, you did ask for feedback on your approach in page two and you've been defending against the advice you've gotten ever since. people say this forum is harsh all the time, but it's really not. people here mostly know what they're doing so i'd listen to them, and right now they're saying stockpiling bad/average assets is not the answer. just don't take everything as an attack and you'll be on your way to making the video games in no time!
also from a quick google i notice there's a few threads like this one asking for feedback. you say you don't ask the good artists to post for feedback--how about you start a central thread and show us the awesome parts of your project?
A Seinfeld gif is your example of constructive feedback? Really? Really? What made ME do the double take was the fact that this response was absurd in that he knew nothing about the project - and at best choose to ignorantly assume the assets were for iOS or at worst deliberately acted like a douche. There's nothing defensive in that because everything I said was baited in truth.
Odium failed in displaying tact in every conceivable way. It's what got him banned from NeoGaf and it's why I responded in kind after three days of his nonsense. I hope he understands just what it feels like on the other side now. That's the last I'll speak on him.
Moving on. There are a lot of assumptions taking place as to how these assets are going to be used. Stop worrying about my side of things. Help Mihai. Even if my project fails, he will still be able to use his assets on his portfolio and isn't that what's really important?
That said. You've offered some really good advice on production. Can we talk it over on Skype? If not, thank you for your advice nevertheless.
Moving on. There are a lot of assumptions taking place as to how these assets are going to be used. Stop worrying about my side of things. Help Mihai. Even if my project fails, he will still be able to use his assets on his portfolio and isn't that what's really important?
To be honest...a lot of the slack that you are getting is because you are coming up with excuses for most (not all) of the feedback your getting. People here will get volatile when they take the time to give critique that is immediately dismissed. And saying "oh yea...well come back at it in a second pass" or "we will get a texture artist for that" isn't taking critique. If you honestly want to help the guy...let him post, let us give him feedback, and let him use it.
Right now this thread is starting to become a bit of a joke..but you could possibly turn it around if you chill out and people see that you guys are taking the critique and advice your getting and using it.
To be honest...a lot of the slack that you are getting is because you are coming up with excuses for most (not all) of the feedback your getting. People here will get volatile when they take the time to give critique that is immediately dismissed. And saying "oh yea...well come back at it in a second pass" or "we will get a texture artist for that" isn't taking critique. If you honestly want to help the guy...let him post, let us give him feedback, and let him use it.
Right now this thread is starting to become a bit of a joke..but you could possibly turn it around if you chill out and people see that you guys are using the critique and advice your getting and using it.
I think the issue is you think we are lying to you when we say he will do a second pass? Is that why we're not taking critique?
We've actually talked about your feedback. He will finish his list of assets tomorrow and then start applying the feedback he received here. That's not to say he hasn't applied any of the feedback he has received. He worked to improve the tire. I don't understand. Is the anger less about not using advice and more about not using advice right away?
Moving on. There are a lot of assumptions taking place as to how these assets are going to be used. Stop worrying about my side of things. Help Mihai. Even if my project fails, he will still be able to use his assets on his portfolio and isn't that what's really important?
Re-read racer's post g, the approach you're taking is not conducive to mihai or anyone making quality assets. You think you're saving time by making quick and dirty assets to redo later, but you aren't because you'd save a lot more time just using textureless primitive proxy models to block scenes out instead of quick assets. Then you could start doing levels literally today, and your artists would only have to make one final instance of each asset, not two or one + a heavily revised version.
Remember, if you could be working faster, then by virtue of opportunity cost, you're wasting time. Game development is an increasingly complicated task and you need to be increasingly rational with how you work in order to achieve efficiency. Planning to work backwards isn't rational! Arguing with feedback isn't rational!
Please don't take this as an insult or an attack because it's not meant to be one. And if you feel like it is, you don't even have to respond! :poly121:
Take a look at one of the threads. Pick TWO random assets that you guys have posted.
This is serious btw.
Now, match them up in terms of detail, scale etc... i.e. put the tennis racket next to the row boat. Or the flip-flop next to the tennis racket... Can you, honestly, not see the MASSIVE differences...?
Polycounts, rendering, chamfering, putting detail where it shouldn't be, but not putting detail where you really need it... The tennis racket for example is so low poly, it looks like an asset from QUAKE 2. The shoe on the other hand, is far too high poly, but in all the wrong ways... The row boat? Looks like it was made with Milkshape by a guy with one hand.
These seem harsh? So what? Thats real life. This is the info thats been passed onto you guys for so many posts over so many threads, and not once have any of you taken this info on board.
People would rather see you make one good asset and learn from it, than 30 piss poor ones and just ignore everything said. THATS why people are taking the mick.
Take a look at one of the threads. Pick TWO random assets that you guys have posted.
This is serious btw.
Now, match them up in terms of detail, scale etc... i.e. put the tennis racket next to the row boat. Or the flip-flop next to the tennis racket... Can you, honestly, not see the MASSIVE differences...?
Polycounts, rendering, chamfering, putting detail where it shouldn't be, but not putting detail where you really need it... The tennis racket for example is so low poly, it looks like an asset from QUAKE 2. The shoe on the other hand, is far too high poly, but in all the wrong ways... The row boat? Looks like it was made with Milkshape by a guy with one hand.
These seem harsh? So what? Thats real life. This is the info thats been passed onto you guys for so many posts over so many threads, and not once have any of you taken this info on board.
People would rather see you make one good asset and learn from it, than 30 piss poor ones and just ignore everything said. THATS why people are taking the mick.
This is actually a really good post. Quite constructive. So in regards to getting consistency what would you suggest? This is an issue that's quite bigger than simply refining poly count but I can see the problems that would arise from this lack of consistency.
Re-read racer's post g, the approach you're taking is not conducive to mihai or anyone making quality assets. You think you're saving time by making quick and dirty assets to redo later, but you aren't because you'd save a lot more time just using textureless primitive proxy models to block scenes out instead of quick assets. Then you could start doing levels literally today, and your artists would only have to make one final instance of each asset, not two or one + a heavily revised version.
Remember, if you could be working faster, then by virtue of opportunity cost, you're wasting time. Game development is an increasingly complicated task and you need to be increasingly rational with how you work in order to achieve efficiency. Planning to work backwards isn't rational! Arguing with feedback isn't rational!
Please don't take this as an insult or an attack because it's not meant to be one. And if you feel like it is, you don't even have to respond! :poly121:
There was nothing here I consider a personal attack. You've also made a good point. Basically by blocking out the scene with primitives we would know where everything would go. But odium's point is just as valid when it comes to consistency in art quality. Further thoughts please? Thanks!
Hey Zen, I just read through this thread (most of it). While some of the critiques you've been getting have been rude, they are right for the most part. The thing is, you have to be careful about the way you reply to people's posts. Saying "At this point, we've talked about it among the team and have decided that there is clearly something wrong with you and that we're not going to deal with your nonsense any more." doesn't look good on your part at all. Best just to ignore him if he's bugging you.
As for the project, I don't entirely understand the purpose (sorry if it was explained, there's a lot of posts in this thread and I may have skimmed by it). You have people working on it that don't know what an n-gon is, for example. Wouldn't time be better spent learning more first?
Why not spend a a few months practicing techniques and reading tutorials and then come back to this later?
You should show us your UV maps and i would recommend you to start learning subd modeling.You should pay attention on your polycount and how and where you use your polygons.
Hi. Yeah i know i have the problem with the polycount and where i am placing polygons, still trying to get rid of that tic, i will def look on some tuts.
Here are the uvs (now i realized that i needed to cut of on some texture to be 1024x512)
Ok... Well for a start. It should be on one texture. Not four. Theres so much wasted space its unreal, but worse than that, your texel density is a nightmare, its all over the shop. You have the smallest metal parts taking up MORE space than the body?
And cutting "SOME" textures down to 1024x512...? The whole thing should be no larger than 512x512, MAX. At a very big push, 1024x512, but thats if this things really important.
Doesn't look like all the images are just for one object if you mean that.You should apply a checker map on your models to see the texel density its important to get it right if you don't want to have irregular TD across the model.
Checker map is used to check the density of texels
Its important that little cubes you see there are similar in size across the model.
They dont have to be the same density everytime basically the part that's the most visible should have more TD.
Overlay shapes, keep things straight and keep the texture size low, be smart when uv mapping and texturing.
In a few mins I did a mock up of how you could easily fit all those in one uv map and still get away with a 1 k texture I think, I don't know what is what so this wont be a accurate representation of how your uv map would look like.
Here I overlayed shapes that where similar that don't need unique space in my opinion.
Thanks Stromberg90, i usually do this too, overlaying not so important parts and making sometimes a single texture for more assets.. the thing was like this: i was told to make a dif texture for every model and short after a texture artist appeared...
Theres nothing wrong with making a different texture for every model, thats fine. If you are draw call limited and you know that asset X, Y and Z are ALL in the same scene, what Strom did above is totally ok. But yeah, theres nothing wrong with using just one texture per model.
Remember, you dont NEED to stick to 1:1 or 1:2 resolutions. Anything power of two will work. I think once you scale all the islands correctly, unwrap them correctly so they are no longer warped etc etc... You will find you can fit everything in a LOT better.
First of all: this is becoming a bit of a derailed thread, but I feel it's important to keep discussing this for the sake of a game and all the people involved. Is there a way that a mod could separate these posts in to two threads? One just for Mihai's work (sorry this is all in your thread) and one for the convo with ZenDavis.
Well I'd be glad to explain it to you mate.
We imagine most development studios have far more reference footage for their animators then we took.
For an entire project? Sure, if it's a large enough studio. But it'd be useful footage, not a guy idling around for three hours (70 vids, 2 to 3 minutes). It'd be a pretty scripted and targeted effort at getting animation data. They would have a pre-made list of animations. They would have someone that's acquainted with (armed) combat.
If certain things don't fit into the level design, they will be removed.
You should try to avoid this as -much- as possible. Not only does it hurt you financially (which might be hypothetical money in this case. But it's important to keep a budget - even it's a fake one) but it also disrespects the artist. Having your work tossed away because it doesn't fit with the level design, that's a crap feeling.
First find out what you need, then make it. Not the other way around.
Even if my project fails, he will still be able to use his assets on his portfolio and isn't that what's really important?
That's what is important, and it is what isn't going to happen because you're having these guys make bad models fast rather than good models slow. You learn much more if you do one thing very properly (such as trying to perfectly bake a normalmap and not falling back to paint-fixing) than by doing it several times sloppily.
Furthermore, your emphasis for speed makes it very hard for us to provide feedback in time. I made this image recently but the sandal was already deemed 'finished' by the time I'd gotten around to it. The speed you're working these guys at makes it really difficult to course-correct in time.
This doesn't help them, and could actually worsen things because they might get incorrect techniques and priorities ingrained in their workflows. And getting rid of bad habits is MUCH harder than starting off blanco.
Like Racer said, simplify the game. What are all these props for, even? They look like filler material. Don't. There are 3 people on the forums. Have one make a barrel and a crate. Have the other one make a gas canister and a pallet. Have the other make a broken airco and a trashed bookcase. Yes they're cliche's but who cares? You're not painting the Sistine Chapel with beginning painters.
Give them something they can handle, and something that will be versatile. The props I've mentioned are one metal and one wood per person. That's two big material difference which are essential to understand. The models are relatively simple so they can focus on execution not just on making it look sortakindalike what you need. They are also widely known objects, so they'll be easier to critique. There are also less models per person so you get higher quality.
Ok im a complete noob. But I am gonna give my advice to contrast the pro's views.
In terms of k21n's assets your normal maps are blobby especially on that clipboard. I had a problem like this before and it was because I wasnt doing my normal maps incorrectly.
and you say the clipboard will be a main asset the player will see? (if I am reading correctly?) then it needs work.
I think its cool you are undertaking big projects, you should take one step at a time, create an asset to high standard then move onto another one, instead of creating 10 mediocre - poor assets and having to change lots of things.
You shouldn't give these guys attitude no matter how good you THINK you are, they will tell you if you are good or not. They are professionals in the industry or high experienced artists and they know what they are talking about, if they say your model needs work, then it needs work.
You should be thankful, you are getting alot of interest in this thread and they want to help. So take their advice and learn from it.
You shouldn't give these guys attitude no matter how good you THINK you are, they will tell you if you are good or not. They are professionals in the industry or high experienced artists and they know what they are talking about, if they say your model needs work, then it needs work.
You should be thankful, you are getting alot of interest in this thread and they want to help. So take their advice and learn from it.
Yes.
As others have said, I say you guys need to slow down and really reevaluate where you are going with this project. I may have missed it, since I skimmed through a lot of the bickering that this thread has produced (which is stupid, since these are tiny assets, and the guys, nice enough to leave feedback, are just trying to help). There should be no need to fire back. As others have said already, if you really dissagree with their feedback and want to be ignorant about it all, then just dont even respond. If you really are going to shut down some of the great advice you guys got,even AFTER you fired back at them, and still got paint overs (somehow...), then do not even bother making a thread here. "Pimping and Previews". Basically means post your awesome work so we can check out its awesomeness and give you some solid feedback to make it even more awesome! Not post your work, not even knowing what an n-gon is (to be honest, if you do not know how to manage a game model, or just not know what an n-gon is, and you are trying to create a full fledged game... You need to step back and do some more learning before taking on such a large project) and trying to make a full production worth of a game, and then shutting down some of the awesome crits you have gotten.
Aside from my rant, I believe you guys should start working on the larger side of the game. I am not entirely sure the premise of the game, how it works, gameplay mechnics, etc etc. But a base blockout for the level(s) really needs to be happening. Like others have said, you should know what you are going to need. Not make a ton of art and then use only half of it because it just didnt fit. This is simply level/game design 101. The amount of time you guys are spending on micro props/weapons is over the top. Props of that scale, and with photo sourced textures, shouldnt take all day. Maybe a whole level of props should take 2 days of work tops (depending on scale, etc), but by now, a whole level should be built, maybe blocked out with simple shapes and no textures, but having that base is the best way to go. You cant just make stuff as you go along. Reusing assets, building modular sections, and kit bashing is the name of the game these days. Having 1000 different unique assets, ESPECIALLY, in the mobile field is going to COMPLETELY KILL the game size (really important because of over the air download limitations, this is a huge factor for a lot of people), overload the level scale ability, and just make the FPS tank. I have been working in the mobile side of things for almost 2 years now (starting to move into console/PC though), and this is just coming from past experiences. Its all about re-using assets, cutting EVERY single poly that you possibly can, and just being smart about time management.
Mobile games normally dont bring in a huge sum of money for smaller, indie teams. especially now that a lot of platforms are moving towards the F2P side, due to piracy and just the fact that people are content with having just a handful of games at a time, meaning a lot of minor games/apps just get left in the dust. As we call it, "the abyss". Because of this, it is important to just start pumping out prototypes and making games until you hit that golden app. The one app that becomes your baby, your money maker. I know we do this because we love it, but to be honest, its all about the money. This is our career, this is our passion, this is what we live for. Day and night. I never stop thinking about modeling or painting or just art/design in general. I am always taking notes, always thinking about improving my models, what I could have done differently, and even when playing other games... What would I do, to make this game even more awesome and incorporate those ideas/concepts into my personal designs/concepts. But there are bills to pay. There always is. So as awesome as this all is, it comes down to time management, being smart about your designing, trying to learn and build off of EVERYTHING, and making money. Hope this helps. And to be fair to everyone else, everyone here is family. We all try to help others, and we all love and feed off of Polycount, but we try to give back as much as possible. There is no need to shut people down and fire back with excuses on why you dont care about their critique, just ignore it. It will save you time, and will hide the fact that you dont care about what we say :poly121:
Sorry for the rant, but this is knowledge that I have built up with my limited development experience, and I have been in your shoes. (kind of)
Replies
Sorry man. I don't see your point. He refined the tire. He is looking to refine the bongos. What are you getting at? The guy has finals pretty soon and he is basically doing assets quickly and will get back to refining them after he passes.
I mean if you want to hate on a guy for that, that's your choice. I think it's just kind of mean.
Please let these people make goodlooking assets from start to finish. Modeling plus texture. That way when your project grinds to a halt, they'll at least have some portfolio items.
Sorry. The iOS version is practically finished and we don't feel like stopping. Motion capture session next week.
Additionally, Mihai is almost done with his contributions to the project. He just has to wrap up a jungle gym and the water skis. After that he will make time to go back and optimize all seven of his assets that will go into this project.
With these models...?
We don't post iOS models here. But since you're leaving, drive safe.
---
Edit:
At this point I think I have to call you out on a couple of things because your negativity has reached comical levels. Getting this much shit from a guy who's project was denied entry on Kickstarter, was banned from NeoGAF, and has failed on IndieGoGo is hard to believe. Listen man. If you want to offer constructive feedback - thank you. If you want to post Seinfeld gifs while your project languishes on IndieGoGo, maybe you're the one who has to get their priorities sorted out.
I'm happy with how things are proceeding and I publicly want to thank Mihai for the effort he's putting in for us. They may not be the best models you've seen but goddamn it - he is trying.
You on the other hand better get back to tweaking the Quake 2 engine and its infinite hues of brown that you've been trying to get right on the first try for the last three years.
1 - The OD page is already set up on kickstarter and is waiting on me to hit "go".
2 - I was banned from Gaf BECAUSE OverDose had an IndieGogo page; Something you'll notice is now common place but wasn't at the time.
3 - Where did OD fail..? Not only does it have a few weeks left, but we have ZERO gameplay on there. I would say thats pretty good.
Like I said... Keep on ignoring advice, its really no sweat off my sack
Listen. Let me be straightforward with you. I think you're a sociopath. That is just being honest with you. You stopped giving advice after the first page and I don't think you even realize that.
01. It may be. But you're a liar and here is why you went with IndieGoGo first:
02. It may be. But you're a liar and here is why you were banned from NeoGaf:
Listen. We do not want to deal with you.
If you had any self-respect, when a person says go away, you would leave. Well go away. Shoo. Work on your project. Leave us alone. If you post here again, you won't be responded to. At this point, we've talked about it among the team and have decided that there is clearly something wrong with you and that we're not going to deal with your nonsense any more. Any further posts here that do no directly relate to helping Mihai improve his assets will be reported.
Can you link any good tutorials for subd modeling?
With all due respect, if you're still going to mocap, I don't think it's "practically finished" - you've got to clean up the data, too. Also, weren't you using CryEngine? So what's this about iOS?
I'd really like to see what you guys are working on but all I can find are a dead forum and this youtube channel:
[ame="
which consists mostly of a guy (you?) holding a machete in his living room. Seriously, it's like 70 videos of that.
I'm just really confused.
Well I'd be glad to explain it to you mate.
There are two teams.
The first team is collaborating on developing the iOS version up and running. This is being developed in Unity. This team consists of seven people. What I was referring to when I said "practically finished" is the coding. We've got the AI cleared up and are implementing the store kit.
The second team is collaborating on getting the assets together for the PC version. We're making great progress over the past week and have gotten number of assets together. The artists who do a great job of optimizing - I don't ask them to post here. The ones who create assets that are too high in poly count or don't look right, I ask they post here for feedback. I also don't ask anyone to do more than ten assets for the project. This is primarily so that no one encounters any burnout working with us.
Over the past week we've gotten 22 unoptimized assets together for the PC side. This is better progress than I had hoped for and I cannot state how undeniably happy I am at our progress. As assets needed are completed, we will begin to block out our world in CryEngine. If certain things don't fit into the level design, they will be removed. Others will be optimized further. That is currently our plan.
The website has been dead for nearly two years. It will be some time before we revamp it. We also don't use the forums for development because Skype, Google Docs, and Dropbox are much more efficient for our workflow.
The YouTube account is where will be adding additional videos regarding the project. The reference videos are just that. Reference. They were there for the team to communicate and choose which animations we liked the best and which we didn't like at all. Thus when Xeno setups his mocap rig - he would know what we wanted.
In all honesty, 70 videos seems far less than what we should have. I don't understand your disbelief. We imagine most development studios have far more reference footage for their animators then we took. The only difference is that they wouldn't necessarily have publicly uploaded all that footage for individuals such as yourself to look after.
I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have?
Xeno is going to take the motion capture animations and run through them by hand. The Burlap Killer is already rigged. The player model was just finished earlier this week and will be rigger as soon as he is free. After the motion capture - things will be cleaned up and fine-tuned by hand. What is there on YouTube is a very rough initial version. We'll be going at it again in a bigger studio next time.
well, you did ask for feedback on your approach at the start of page two.
in this case, odium and the others are right. pumping out a ton of assets fast with intent to edit later will only lead to poor quality in the end. in my experience, the edits rarely happen and the artists hate coming back to assets which were marked as complete--i know i do! in addition, you stated:
this is backwards compared to how production actually works. you're essentially having the artists waste time stockpiling assets that you know might be trashed before the level has even gone into a blockout stage! whitebox/blockout should always happen first to nail down gameplay, then determine an asset list based on level design and concept art, then make important assets to set the mood, then fill out the scene with smaller things as need be. this way you're only making what you need, so quality increases because you spend more time on what matters.
want to push out a good looking demo in a month? make a plan, then simplify! what's important in our scene? what does the player touch? what can be modular? is there really a need for multiple styles of crates right now? can we make a generic PSD with a few great looking materials instead of custom making them all per object? these are some examples of things to be thinking of.
people always blame bad art on "time constraints", but that's a load of crap!
in closing: dude, stop running defense. nobody is trying to personally attack you, but in response you've personally attacked someone. don't forget, you did ask for feedback on your approach in page two and you've been defending against the advice you've gotten ever since. people say this forum is harsh all the time, but it's really not. people here mostly know what they're doing so i'd listen to them, and right now they're saying stockpiling bad/average assets is not the answer. just don't take everything as an attack and you'll be on your way to making the video games in no time!
also from a quick google i notice there's a few threads like this one asking for feedback. you say you don't ask the good artists to post for feedback--how about you start a central thread and show us the awesome parts of your project?
Wiki has it all
http://wiki.polycount.com/SubdivisionSurfaceModeling
A Seinfeld gif is your example of constructive feedback? Really? Really? What made ME do the double take was the fact that this response was absurd in that he knew nothing about the project - and at best choose to ignorantly assume the assets were for iOS or at worst deliberately acted like a douche. There's nothing defensive in that because everything I said was baited in truth.
Odium failed in displaying tact in every conceivable way. It's what got him banned from NeoGaf and it's why I responded in kind after three days of his nonsense. I hope he understands just what it feels like on the other side now. That's the last I'll speak on him.
Moving on. There are a lot of assumptions taking place as to how these assets are going to be used. Stop worrying about my side of things. Help Mihai. Even if my project fails, he will still be able to use his assets on his portfolio and isn't that what's really important?
That said. You've offered some really good advice on production. Can we talk it over on Skype? If not, thank you for your advice nevertheless.
Thank you Ivan. We appreciate it.
http://www.team-blur-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=617&hilit=neogaf#p5798
In other words, don't suddenly think that you know everything. I'm pretty sure this thread has done more than prove that to you
To be honest...a lot of the slack that you are getting is because you are coming up with excuses for most (not all) of the feedback your getting. People here will get volatile when they take the time to give critique that is immediately dismissed. And saying "oh yea...well come back at it in a second pass" or "we will get a texture artist for that" isn't taking critique. If you honestly want to help the guy...let him post, let us give him feedback, and let him use it.
Right now this thread is starting to become a bit of a joke..but you could possibly turn it around if you chill out and people see that you guys are taking the critique and advice your getting and using it.
I think the issue is you think we are lying to you when we say he will do a second pass? Is that why we're not taking critique?
We've actually talked about your feedback. He will finish his list of assets tomorrow and then start applying the feedback he received here. That's not to say he hasn't applied any of the feedback he has received. He worked to improve the tire. I don't understand. Is the anger less about not using advice and more about not using advice right away?
Remember, if you could be working faster, then by virtue of opportunity cost, you're wasting time. Game development is an increasingly complicated task and you need to be increasingly rational with how you work in order to achieve efficiency. Planning to work backwards isn't rational! Arguing with feedback isn't rational!
Please don't take this as an insult or an attack because it's not meant to be one. And if you feel like it is, you don't even have to respond! :poly121:
Take a look at one of the threads. Pick TWO random assets that you guys have posted.
This is serious btw.
Now, match them up in terms of detail, scale etc... i.e. put the tennis racket next to the row boat. Or the flip-flop next to the tennis racket... Can you, honestly, not see the MASSIVE differences...?
Polycounts, rendering, chamfering, putting detail where it shouldn't be, but not putting detail where you really need it... The tennis racket for example is so low poly, it looks like an asset from QUAKE 2. The shoe on the other hand, is far too high poly, but in all the wrong ways... The row boat? Looks like it was made with Milkshape by a guy with one hand.
These seem harsh? So what? Thats real life. This is the info thats been passed onto you guys for so many posts over so many threads, and not once have any of you taken this info on board.
People would rather see you make one good asset and learn from it, than 30 piss poor ones and just ignore everything said. THATS why people are taking the mick.
This is actually a really good post. Quite constructive. So in regards to getting consistency what would you suggest? This is an issue that's quite bigger than simply refining poly count but I can see the problems that would arise from this lack of consistency.
There was nothing here I consider a personal attack. You've also made a good point. Basically by blocking out the scene with primitives we would know where everything would go. But odium's point is just as valid when it comes to consistency in art quality. Further thoughts please? Thanks!
As for the project, I don't entirely understand the purpose (sorry if it was explained, there's a lot of posts in this thread and I may have skimmed by it). You have people working on it that don't know what an n-gon is, for example. Wouldn't time be better spent learning more first?
Why not spend a a few months practicing techniques and reading tutorials and then come back to this later?
Hi. Yeah i know i have the problem with the polycount and where i am placing polygons, still trying to get rid of that tic, i will def look on some tuts.
Here are the uvs (now i realized that i needed to cut of on some texture to be 1024x512)
Bongos
Clipboard
Lifejacket
Tire
Sorry for the late respons. Just saw the post.
Ok... Well for a start. It should be on one texture. Not four. Theres so much wasted space its unreal, but worse than that, your texel density is a nightmare, its all over the shop. You have the smallest metal parts taking up MORE space than the body?
And cutting "SOME" textures down to 1024x512...? The whole thing should be no larger than 512x512, MAX. At a very big push, 1024x512, but thats if this things really important.
Checker map is used to check the density of texels
Its important that little cubes you see there are similar in size across the model.
They dont have to be the same density everytime basically the part that's the most visible should have more TD.
@ivanzu ^^ Thanks for this checker pattern! I usually used the default one.
In a few mins I did a mock up of how you could easily fit all those in one uv map and still get away with a 1 k texture I think, I don't know what is what so this wont be a accurate representation of how your uv map would look like.
Here I overlayed shapes that where similar that don't need unique space in my opinion.
Remember, you dont NEED to stick to 1:1 or 1:2 resolutions. Anything power of two will work. I think once you scale all the islands correctly, unwrap them correctly so they are no longer warped etc etc... You will find you can fit everything in a LOT better.
For an entire project? Sure, if it's a large enough studio. But it'd be useful footage, not a guy idling around for three hours (70 vids, 2 to 3 minutes). It'd be a pretty scripted and targeted effort at getting animation data. They would have a pre-made list of animations. They would have someone that's acquainted with (armed) combat.
[ame="
You should try to avoid this as -much- as possible. Not only does it hurt you financially (which might be hypothetical money in this case. But it's important to keep a budget - even it's a fake one) but it also disrespects the artist. Having your work tossed away because it doesn't fit with the level design, that's a crap feeling.
First find out what you need, then make it. Not the other way around.
That's what is important, and it is what isn't going to happen because you're having these guys make bad models fast rather than good models slow. You learn much more if you do one thing very properly (such as trying to perfectly bake a normalmap and not falling back to paint-fixing) than by doing it several times sloppily.
Furthermore, your emphasis for speed makes it very hard for us to provide feedback in time. I made this image recently but the sandal was already deemed 'finished' by the time I'd gotten around to it. The speed you're working these guys at makes it really difficult to course-correct in time.
This doesn't help them, and could actually worsen things because they might get incorrect techniques and priorities ingrained in their workflows. And getting rid of bad habits is MUCH harder than starting off blanco.
Like Racer said, simplify the game. What are all these props for, even? They look like filler material. Don't. There are 3 people on the forums. Have one make a barrel and a crate. Have the other one make a gas canister and a pallet. Have the other make a broken airco and a trashed bookcase. Yes they're cliche's but who cares? You're not painting the Sistine Chapel with beginning painters.
Give them something they can handle, and something that will be versatile. The props I've mentioned are one metal and one wood per person. That's two big material difference which are essential to understand. The models are relatively simple so they can focus on execution not just on making it look sortakindalike what you need. They are also widely known objects, so they'll be easier to critique. There are also less models per person so you get higher quality.
And to re
In terms of k21n's assets your normal maps are blobby especially on that clipboard. I had a problem like this before and it was because I wasnt doing my normal maps incorrectly.
and you say the clipboard will be a main asset the player will see? (if I am reading correctly?) then it needs work.
I think its cool you are undertaking big projects, you should take one step at a time, create an asset to high standard then move onto another one, instead of creating 10 mediocre - poor assets and having to change lots of things.
You shouldn't give these guys attitude no matter how good you THINK you are, they will tell you if you are good or not. They are professionals in the industry or high experienced artists and they know what they are talking about, if they say your model needs work, then it needs work.
You should be thankful, you are getting alot of interest in this thread and they want to help. So take their advice and learn from it.
Lol I missed this one too.
Yes.
As others have said, I say you guys need to slow down and really reevaluate where you are going with this project. I may have missed it, since I skimmed through a lot of the bickering that this thread has produced (which is stupid, since these are tiny assets, and the guys, nice enough to leave feedback, are just trying to help). There should be no need to fire back. As others have said already, if you really dissagree with their feedback and want to be ignorant about it all, then just dont even respond. If you really are going to shut down some of the great advice you guys got,even AFTER you fired back at them, and still got paint overs (somehow...), then do not even bother making a thread here. "Pimping and Previews". Basically means post your awesome work so we can check out its awesomeness and give you some solid feedback to make it even more awesome! Not post your work, not even knowing what an n-gon is (to be honest, if you do not know how to manage a game model, or just not know what an n-gon is, and you are trying to create a full fledged game... You need to step back and do some more learning before taking on such a large project) and trying to make a full production worth of a game, and then shutting down some of the awesome crits you have gotten.
Aside from my rant, I believe you guys should start working on the larger side of the game. I am not entirely sure the premise of the game, how it works, gameplay mechnics, etc etc. But a base blockout for the level(s) really needs to be happening. Like others have said, you should know what you are going to need. Not make a ton of art and then use only half of it because it just didnt fit. This is simply level/game design 101. The amount of time you guys are spending on micro props/weapons is over the top. Props of that scale, and with photo sourced textures, shouldnt take all day. Maybe a whole level of props should take 2 days of work tops (depending on scale, etc), but by now, a whole level should be built, maybe blocked out with simple shapes and no textures, but having that base is the best way to go. You cant just make stuff as you go along. Reusing assets, building modular sections, and kit bashing is the name of the game these days. Having 1000 different unique assets, ESPECIALLY, in the mobile field is going to COMPLETELY KILL the game size (really important because of over the air download limitations, this is a huge factor for a lot of people), overload the level scale ability, and just make the FPS tank. I have been working in the mobile side of things for almost 2 years now (starting to move into console/PC though), and this is just coming from past experiences. Its all about re-using assets, cutting EVERY single poly that you possibly can, and just being smart about time management.
Mobile games normally dont bring in a huge sum of money for smaller, indie teams. especially now that a lot of platforms are moving towards the F2P side, due to piracy and just the fact that people are content with having just a handful of games at a time, meaning a lot of minor games/apps just get left in the dust. As we call it, "the abyss". Because of this, it is important to just start pumping out prototypes and making games until you hit that golden app. The one app that becomes your baby, your money maker. I know we do this because we love it, but to be honest, its all about the money. This is our career, this is our passion, this is what we live for. Day and night. I never stop thinking about modeling or painting or just art/design in general. I am always taking notes, always thinking about improving my models, what I could have done differently, and even when playing other games... What would I do, to make this game even more awesome and incorporate those ideas/concepts into my personal designs/concepts. But there are bills to pay. There always is. So as awesome as this all is, it comes down to time management, being smart about your designing, trying to learn and build off of EVERYTHING, and making money. Hope this helps. And to be fair to everyone else, everyone here is family. We all try to help others, and we all love and feed off of Polycount, but we try to give back as much as possible. There is no need to shut people down and fire back with excuses on why you dont care about their critique, just ignore it. It will save you time, and will hide the fact that you dont care about what we say :poly121:
Sorry for the rant, but this is knowledge that I have built up with my limited development experience, and I have been in your shoes. (kind of)