[DotA2] Crystal Maiden/Lina - Diametrical
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Latest Progress=====================
Original Post==============================
Okay, so I've never played DotA in my life. I first became interested in it when I made this account and downloaded the texturing pipeline and character art PDFs not that long ago. For the past couple of days, I've been doing some research into the game and its world.
One thing that stood out to me is the two sisters - Lina and the Crystal Maiden. Specifically, their relationship. Looking at the voice responses recorded, it seems that it's borderline complicated. On one hand, we have Rylai who seems to hold a deep seated resentment of Lina. On the other hand, we have Lina who doesn't even regard Rylai as a rival, yet seemingly says and does things just to get a rise out of her. Looking at things that way, you kind of wonder which of the sisters is the "good one"... Or if there even is a "good one". Very interesting characters.
So, art stuff: Concepts!
I did these pretty quick today just to get something down. Depending on the feedback I get - if I get any feedback (I tend to slip through the cracks) - I'll wind up changing these considerably for one reason or another.
Technically, I tried not to go too overboard, and attempted to observe the characters' design rules. I'm trying to keep the characters, well, the characters.
The premise is based on their story. Both sisters were shipped off to different ends of their world. They each trained at their craft while they were seperated, so I thought, "what if they were both masters of fire and ice when they returned?"
Hurdles? Well, in the case of Lina, I REALLY hope transparencies are turned on for the character. If not - back to the drawing board.
Thank you for your time!
Original Post==============================
Okay, so I've never played DotA in my life. I first became interested in it when I made this account and downloaded the texturing pipeline and character art PDFs not that long ago. For the past couple of days, I've been doing some research into the game and its world.
One thing that stood out to me is the two sisters - Lina and the Crystal Maiden. Specifically, their relationship. Looking at the voice responses recorded, it seems that it's borderline complicated. On one hand, we have Rylai who seems to hold a deep seated resentment of Lina. On the other hand, we have Lina who doesn't even regard Rylai as a rival, yet seemingly says and does things just to get a rise out of her. Looking at things that way, you kind of wonder which of the sisters is the "good one"... Or if there even is a "good one". Very interesting characters.
So, art stuff: Concepts!
I did these pretty quick today just to get something down. Depending on the feedback I get - if I get any feedback (I tend to slip through the cracks) - I'll wind up changing these considerably for one reason or another.
Technically, I tried not to go too overboard, and attempted to observe the characters' design rules. I'm trying to keep the characters, well, the characters.
The premise is based on their story. Both sisters were shipped off to different ends of their world. They each trained at their craft while they were seperated, so I thought, "what if they were both masters of fire and ice when they returned?"
Hurdles? Well, in the case of Lina, I REALLY hope transparencies are turned on for the character. If not - back to the drawing board.
Thank you for your time!
Replies
The only thing I have to say, so you just know, and more seeing that you never played dota; its that both characters play very, very supportive roles, Crystal Maiden specially, has the fame of being one if not the hardest support in the game. It would be useful for you to take this in account to avoid slip the designs on an overkill agressive way. This could work a little bit for lina tho
Also nice to see you are getting into the lore of the characters, it will lead you in the right path :thumbup:
I wrote something to try to understand the characters better, and to better refine the direction I'm taking this project. The story is as follows:
Amid a field strewn with ashes and ice shards, two figures collapse.
You still alive, Ice Queen?
Stuff it, Hell-bitch.
For all their years of conflict, yet again, another encounter ends in a draw. Exasperated, the two sisters rolled to face the sky. Neither possessing the strength to rise to her own two feet - let alone launch another attack - they must each endure the presence of the other.
Youll never beat me, Sis.
I will not lose.
They both sigh in unison.
Its your fault our parents got rid of us.
No. Its your fault. You started it.
You fought back. You took it too far!
Took it too far? Youre full of it!
All I did was pull your hair! Did you have to launch an icicle at me?
Well, you didnt have to whack me with that chair leg you set on fire!
You didnt have to freeze my feet to the floor!
You didnt have to burn the ceiling down!
Ice Queen!
Hell-bitch!
They narrowed their gaze at the sky above. Unknown to the other, both tried to move but failed in silence. A good hour must have passed when the Maiden spoke.
When I get up from here, Im going to train. In two years, Im gonna come back here and wipe that smirk off your face!
Hmph. Like Id let you get ahead. In two years, Ill beat the prissy out of you!
Neither knew that the other wore the same expression on her face.
Then its settled.
Fine.
The next morning, the two went separate ways.
The Maiden went far south. In her mentors journals, she read of a place far more frigid than Icewrack. The most primal ice was said to form in the center of that frozen continent; an ice so frigid that it has been said to have the power to freeze even hell itself. A month of searching yielded the crystal, and she set to work mastering its properties.
The Slayer traveled to the islands of the equator. There, she lived and trained in volcanoes to master the primal flame with the power to melt rock.
Sure enough, two years had passed, and fire and ice would meet once more. This time, there will be no draw.
Today, I worked on the Crystal Maiden's design in an attempt to get a better direction. Taking some of Core7SO's advice, I tried to make the ice elements a less aggressive by reducing the size of the spikes.
Through writing the above snippet, I've come to realize more what I want to accomplish. I basically want to make the sisters into ascetics of sort. Like they've each been on journeys that taxed their abilities and made them stronger and more awesome at what they do when they return.
I tried mixing and matching my favorite elements from the thumbs to form the other one down at the bottom.
As always, any feedback will be greatly appreciated!
Thank you for your time!
Okay. Got around to Lina this morning...
Just my two cents
I'll probably start sculpting some of these tomorrow and play around with them some more...
Okay. Sculpted some stuff for Lina first. Just trying to see if it would work spatially and stuff. Moved the bangle lower on the left arm because I noticed that Lina had a really subtle effect on her left forearm in the preview on the spectator client.
I'm a little worried that the tattering of the trailing dress portion of her belt might put her a little too close to Death Prophet...
I like Lina's dragon belt, hairstyle. overall, I think you've got something here.
as for her arm with the lava armor, have you tried just making it into a full Gauntlet that covers her hand too? I'm thinkin it to be like the Witchblade Gauntlet.
otherwise, keep up the cool work!
Thanks. I initially considered a full gauntlet (because I LOVE gauntlets), but I quickly became concerned about the triangle count. If I can figure out how to do so without going poly-crazy or, if I wind up with extra triangles left over, I'd definitely like to give each of the sisters a gauntlet.
Hm. I guess we'll soon see if I can texture...
Crystal Maiden's set looks very interesting. You replaced the hood(and put it on the back, a nice move since CM had a hood since dota 1) with a nice haircut that fits her and keeps her "sweet" look. The staff is much more massive and stable which makes it more powerful than the original one. The rips on the cloak seem contradictory to the rest of the set but I still like them ^^. As for the gauntlet and shoulders, they are very nice but you may have problems with the item slots since rylai has a different item slot for the shoulders and wrists I think.
Overall they are both great ideas and concepts. Can't wait to see both of them coloured! Good Luck
(Sorry for the long post... :P)
The lava on Lina's arm bothers me a bit, though. It's sort of bulbous. I feel like some of the smaller, lighter, more angular concepts suit her character better. Even just getting some hpolish on there to create some nice sharp edges would help.
@D-TiMeR, the Maiden's Ice gauntlet is actually two pieces. One for the forearm slot, and one for the shoulder slot.
So, yeah. I did some poly-painting today. I'd started preparations today when I noticed that I didn't do anything for the neck slot! So, I jury-rigged something. I didn't change much because I didn't want to mess with the unconscious diamond motif that Lina had going for her. Though, I'm kinda wondering if I should even do anything with the neck slot at all...
I'm gonna take a quick break and then take a shot at the Maiden.
Got Rylai painted. I'm thinking that I'm probably gonna have to adjust some of the saturation levels of certain ice elements...
Tomorrow, I'm gonna mess around with Lina's Gauntlet some more and see what I come up with.
All right! Messed around a bit today. Got some concepts for what to do with that gauntlet.
After a bit of sleep, it's become apparent that I'm definitely gonna have to alter Rylai's ice to re-establish a visual heirarcy in the character design.
I'm also beginning to wonder if I should alter the first post so that it can reflect the latest round of images... It's becoming a bit of a pain in the butt to scroll...
As always, any and all feedback is much appreciated. Thank you for your time!
I just wanted to chip in and say that I agree with shanks37 that the shoulder armour from your initial sculpt looks a little chunky. But I love the A and D styles, with D definitely being my top pick. Looks fantastic.
I love the tattered effect on the back of her dress. But I think you could make it look more burnt. At the moment it's kind of a maroon, but I think it would look better dark brown, to look like its literally burnt apart.
I like the dragon belt, but I think its colour doesn't match the rest of the set. Unless you're trying to make it stick out more. But I think a darker hue would work better than lighter, as its almost a pink. Maybe a dark base colour with lighter highlights to bring out the detail on the scales.
Great work though. Love the hairstyle.
Talk about a morale boost!
I think you raise some valid points. I'll take a shot at those either tomorrow or this weekend.
Just another thing, I'd be interested in seeing a version of Lina's hairstyle without the blonde streak on her fringe, or just a more subtle implementation like blonde just on the tip, like the way the back parts of her hair are blonde on the tips (which looks great). At the moment it has a kind of anime effect and I'm not sure it fits the Dota theme 100%. But maybe keep both in mind as other people might disagree with me.
Still, it's all just my opinion. And the hairstyle itself looks really great, I think it's a huge improvement on the original. Best of luck.
I think your best hairstyle for Lina was the one was the last concept you made for her (http://www.difficultyunlimited.com/images/LinaThumbs0.jpg). This one is very interesting and fits better then the one you've modeled in my opinion.
As for the gauntlet, I love the concepts in D and E. I think the lava needs to be a bit more pronounced, matching up with how bright the highlights of her dress are.
Again, great progress so far. If you'd like to get to know the game better, I'd be happy to play some games with you - let me know
Just curious... isn't that the same hairstyle that was used in the modelled version?
idea: My second choice would be letter A. The protruding shoulder blade made me think of a dragon's wing. Would it be cool if her gauntlet arm's pauldron had a small dragon wing sprouting out of it? would it exceed the triangle count? Just a thought, might work but it would fit her dragon theme as well.
Couple things -
Lina-
1) Shoulder A and C fit better with the strong contrast of color.
2) The half apron Lina can be trimmed a little bit more or be more playful.
CM-
1) The frozen ice shoulder theme is totally overkill imo.
@reaverxai - I'd take you up on your offer, but if I started playing games now, I'd probably never finish my entry... Or my work... And, my girlfriend would probably be very, very cross with me... Uh, TMI. Maybe once this is all over, though.
@tjallen8 - more or less, yes. Though, looking at that same thumb now, I can see how it could be construed as a top-tied hairdo. *Shrugs* It happens. Whaddayagonnado?
@formic.sapien - well, that depends on how you look at it. My current counts could either be zero or in the millions (drat. Polycount needs a proper trollface - like twitch.tv's Kappa). I prefer to sculpt before making my game-res models. That way, I can lay out and modify the topology fairly easily (thank heavens for Topogun... and Dynamesh...). Doing it that way allows me to focus on design first, make iterations relatively quickly, and save a ton of time making and remaking basemeshes. In spite of the fact that I used to teach the stuff, I'm very slow with Maya and Max.
All right. Back to work with me...
New gauntlet get! Er, yeah... I wound up combining A&E with the lowest part coming from C. The reasons for this were a few. I liked that E had a sort of feminine quality to it. The rear of A reminds me of rising flame, though I can see how it would be reminiscent of a dragon wing. I also really liked the open area near the elbow, and think that having that would help immensely when making the low poly. The one thing I like about this version of the gauntlet is that it actually works with Lina's unconscious diamonds.
Thanks, guys!
@Molai - we were restricted to certain item slots. 'Can't change the base texture.
Ugh. This weekend... Ugh... Didn't get to do nearly as much as I wanted. There are a few things I've yet to do (for example, try out a streakless hairstyle for Lina). But, I got the chance to give the Maiden some love.
Remember my initial analysis of the relationship between Rylai and Lina? Where I mentioned that you kinda have to wonder which one is the good one? Well, I'm gonna delve into that a little deeper, and use this set to do it.
I went back and listened to the vocal responses for both characters, and got the idea for the changes that I'd made earlier today. First, let's look at each character's side of their dynamic.
On one side of the equation, we have Lina. She seems very stubborn and cocky. She likes to troll just to get a rise out of her target - but it's all just for fun to her. She may say some pretty mean things, but the way she says them seems to lack malice. In her vocal responses, we kinda get a feel for this.
A few samples:
"Oh sister, I kept the home fires burning."
"Sorry sister, but you needed thawing."
I mean, even this one - which is the most severe thing she says to the Maiden, "Cold-hearted bitch." Lacks malice.
Now, on the other side of the equation we have the Crystal Maiden. She puts forth a prim and proper demeanor, but she's actually quite foul-mouthed, comparatively. Additionally - and maybe it's just my understanding of it - she seems to have become malicious towards her sister as a result of the treatment she's received. It's almost like she doesn't realize that Lina's just having fun - and it's eating away at her slowly - and it's kinda making her unhinged. And, in her vocal responses towards Lina, we get a feel for this as well.
A few samples:
"Lina!"
"My heart will never that toward you, sister!"
"I always was the good one."
Now for a thought exercise. Imagine that one of the sisters is hogtied and the other holds a dagger (ignoring the rule 34 potential). Listen to the above sound clips - or the other available sound clips for each character. Which sister would plunge the knife into the other?
The answer I came up with is Rylai the Crystal Maiden - easily. Especially with the delivery of that "I always was the good one" line. *Shudders* If a friend or sibling says that to you with that kind of delivery, GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!
Taking all of that into consideration, I kinda see the Maiden's arc as being a little similar to the classic "fall to the dark side" in which a character's purity actually starts working against him/her and just starts greasing the metaphorical elevator's pulleys as it descends to who-knows-where.
So, I've used all of that to explain what exactly? I mentioned before that I wanted to use this set to turn the sisters into ascetics of sorts. They've gone to different places to train, and they've returned changed - but still somewhat similar. I want them to have a bit of a Yin and Yang quality (hence the name "Diametrical"). I want each of the sets to tell a bit of story. And, in the case of Crystal Maiden, I want her set to tell of a slight fall - where the malignant malice in her heart feeds her drive to become stronger and starts to take her over just a little. She holds fast to the belief that she is "the good one", but for one reason or another she doesn't understand that she's beating herself.
All of this - from listening to some voice files. I've gotta hand it to them, they did a heck of a job with the voice acting in this game. They could have phoned it in and let it rock, but there's evidence of a lot of love and care put into the voice acting.
Blah blah blah, Dash. What about the aesthetics? What about finishing this thing? Why are you boring us?
Okay, okay. I'll get to the nitty-gritty. I only got a chance to make some quick edits this weekend. I broke up the shoulder ice and added an effect that I will use self-illumination to make glow slightly in the final version (I really hope this works). I believe that this helps to further the "Yin and Yang" quality that I was shooting for. I managed to change the ice arm a bit, and hardened the facets on the ice. I've decided to get rid of the little ice spikes, as I felt that they were becoming overkill. I added a subtle gradient on the shoulder/chest fur. I've got a bit more of a gradient going in the ice which helps a bit with the visual heirarchy - but I'm still gonna have to do a lot of editing in Photoshop when I get the low-poly made and UVs laid out.
I plan to get that done sometime this week, or over next weekend. Hopefully, I'll be able to upgrade from the spectator client by then, too. I think I've also come up with names for the individual sets. For Rylai the Crystal Maiden - "Hellfreeze"; and for Lina the Slayer "Heavenblaze". Together, they are "Diametrical"... Or something like that.
Analysis of progress thus far:
So far, I'm off to a start. Not quite what I envisioned from the get-go, but I like where I'm going. That has to count for something. The whole being featured on Valve's blog thing was a huge morale boost! I've gotta do my best to make this the best I can make it! Feedback has definitely provided food for thought. And, while it may not have always been followed to the letter, was always considered.
Thank you all for your time and feedback!
This is just me but I don't like the noticeable dragon head on C though. Take it as a grain of salt
Never mind I looked at the wrong page and didn't check the second.
the shoulder part looks out of place, it just sticks out there.
jm2c
I've discovered a couple of things:
The image above features some thumbs for some very minor changes, and tweaks.
Lina's neck slot object seems a little safe. I'm wondering if I should try to do something more daring with it, or just let it rock.
I'm gonna have to introduce some lighter values to the top of Lina's fire gauntlet-thing.
And, I may have to agree with Mr. Beezow and make the dragon of the belt a bit smaller.
On the Rylai front, I noticed that the twin armbands on the right arm didn't really add/contribute anything meaningful to the design. And, more-or-less were there to be there... I couldn't figure out why I put them there last week, so I'm trying to figure out whether I should put something else there in their stead; let what's there rock; or just leave that right arm empty.
So yeah. Tomorrow, tweaks and the start of retop.
Looking back on it, I actually really like the cloth around her waist in this concept:
What about if you did something like that with a dragon head on the right side, but instead of a bulky dragon head, it could be a metal kind of decorative piece pinned on? Without having the dragon horn going all around her body?
As in, think of the difference between the dragon being the belt clip, but not the belt itself.
Or you could even move the dragon head from her waist to the right wrist (the arm without the gauntlet). It could be a dragon head bracelet, which would take the weight of her waist while still keeping the asymmetry between left and right.
I know it's a big change, but the more I look at that older concept the more I think she needs a slimmer + sleeker look.
I would also agree that the shoulder needs lighter values. Again, looking back to your first concept, I like how the shoulder + arm is a shiny metal design, instead of rocky. A metal piece also seems more like armour. Since metal can reflect the light, you would end up with lighter values towards the top of the model.
If you went for a metal gauntlet, my preference would be for the design to be D from your concept in post #20. I think overall she would have a sleeker look, as I think the shoulder you've gone for is too bulky to be honest, sorry.
Overall, if you went for a metal gauntlet and a metal dragon pin on the right side of her waist / bracelet on right wrist, you would end up with a more unified design, since the materials are the same.
I can't comment too much on her neck piece. I don't think it needs to be over the top as it won't be the main focal point. Hope my ideas are clear, I still have high hopes for your concept and think it could become something amazing
Also, as far as the necklace goes, maybe you could have it match closely to the gauntlet? Since the gauntlet goes up close to her neck anyways, it might make sense to have a continuation of that theme. In addition, the gauntlet itself as of now seems a little dark compared to everything else in the set. Perhaps adding a few darker colors to her belt sparingly would help unify the set.
Excellent work, and good luck.
Can I suggest some frosty aura on the staff of kind? some cool frosty effect?
@tjallen8 Metal? It turns out that I'm just really bad at rendering rock... On the Dragonhead front, I dunno - I'll probably just try for the quick fix of scaling it down a bit and seeing what happens from there. It's definitely something to consider, though. Part of the reason I avoided concept D for the gauntlet is because it reminded me of a necromancer set from Guild Wars.
@DesireeFernandes - That's an interesting idea -- adding something to the other arm. I may have an idea for that, triangles permitting. It's something I'll probably have to play with.
@Clyptic - Thanks for pointing that out! That's definitely going on my list of stuff to fix.
All righty. I've been working through the weekend, and all I have to show for it is this:
The low poly may not seem like much, but to me, this is huge - as it means that much of what I've been worried about is not only possible, but plausible. I'm gonna have to call it a practice run, but now I know that it is possible to make the LoD1's of the Maiden's items. So, that's one fear alleviated as I don't have to be as stingy with the triangles when making LoD0.
So, in case I'm not making much sense up there, let me try again in clearer English. I was initially more worried about the Maiden than I was about Lina. This weekend, I retopped CM using only enough triangles to meet the lowest polycount specified by her LoD1. Seeing as to how LoD1 is supposed to come from LoD0, however, I'm going to have to retopologize again (and reduce from there to get a hopefully cleaner) LoD1.
I also tried out the flared sleeve and strips on Rylai.
Okay. Now for the gorilla in the room - scheduling. I'm not getting as much done in a weekend as I want/expect - in spite of working on this entry all weekend. I have a deadline for work due on the 9th of November. If I take a day to rest, that will leave me with 9 days to finish this up. I'll probably break it down something like: 6 days to finish and test the sets, 3 days to work on the presentation - or something like that. That way, I'll cut it kinda close to the deadline, but I should be able to get it done.
Until then, I'll just try to get as much done over the weekends as possible.
Thank you all for your time and feedback!
If you end up scaling down the dragon head, perhaps you could remove the bags on the other side of her waist? That might go a long way towards lessening the weight on her waist area, and she doesn't really need those bags there imo.
I also think you could try to make the dragon head and the rock gauntlet look a bit more unified. Since those are arguably the two main features, they don't seem to synergize enough. I still think the dragon head looks a bit too light, pinkish almost. Perhaps the dragon head could also be rock with lava running through it?
So... Uh... Progress Report. I finally got time to work on my entry. For the past week, I've been rendering maps and retopologizing stuff like it's going out of style. I've had to redo it a few times, but I have a feeling that I'm coming close.
Plus, I've actually got something in-game!
I've reworked a couple of things... I figure if I can knock out one or two objects a day, I'll be in decent shape to finish this up before the deadline, and still be able to make a somewhat decent presentation.
Keep up the good work!
Got the necklace in... 'Think I'm gonna try to get the hair in by the end of the day. It seems simple enough...
Got the hair in... I'm actually surprised at how swimmingly it went. 'Just have to make a minor adjustment to saturation, and it's set, seemingly...
Only Lina's Belt remains... Then, it's time for Rylai to get some lovin'...
Ugh... This is what I get for saying things were going swimmingly...
I don't get it. Why does it look exactly like I intended in the in-game preview, but not quite like I intended in the extreme closeup?
Also, why are my averaged normals not exporting/showing up? This is strange... But I've no time to dwell on it.