Crowd Funding, i.e. My Woes With it
polycounter lvl 18
Hey all, and how is one on a lovely Sunday morning?
I'm just making a little post, or rant, whatevers your poison, about "crowd funding". As a lot of you know, I currently co-lead an unpaid indie team on a project called "OverDose". Its hard work... So hard in fact that at times, it may as well be a real job. 4am is something I see most nights, work or not, much to my girlfriends delight. Thankfully she fully backs the whole thing and loves it, but anyway... The point is, its hard work.
In the past, I've reached out for help, and I won't lie, pretty much never got it. I struck gold a few times and had some real talent come over and say "Sure, looks like fun and I have some free time, I'm in" but most of the time, my pleas fall of deaf ears. Its not hard to see why... I'm making a game that has as much high quality art as possible, you know, like every other legit full time dev does that gets paid? Yeah... Money makes a lot of difference. However looking at even simple mods these days for games, I dunno if what I'm actually doing is even that high end anymore? It used to be back in the day when people were all diffuse only, but now, high poly sculpting seems much more "the norm".
So anyway, my issue... Of course I want money. I want loads of it. I want to make a little pool in my basement and dive into it, Scrooge McDuck style. But I work on OverDose for free, and damn right too. Getting paid doesn't change that fact, because lets face it, I bloody love it, and its so much more rewarding when you work on a project you love because you want to do it, ratehr than a project you cant stand because you are paid to do it. But money is always there... Mostly because I feel why in Gods name should I have to ask people to do stuff for me, FOR FREE, when I should be able to pay them for help?
Sadly, I'm not in a position to do that. Who is really, right? Which is why this whole crowd funding thing really pulled me in... So, off I go and register with Kickstarter...
...only to be told that my project "isnt what they want to back" and that its not what kickstarter is about. I get a bit puzzled with that, because I thought that was the whole point of it, but anyway... Very odd. So i search for others to see how they work. IndieGoGo seems good, but its very much a "word of mouth" service, with hardly any spotlight on you on the main page unless you make oodles of money... RocketHub was another, but thats even worse, with no chance of gettin funding unless you pretty much force it down peoples throat. Not really what I had in mind.
Now, crowd funding DOES work. Just look at Tim Schafer for example... Heading onto 3 million... Wowzers Penny... But then, hes hardly some guy sat in his living room in his spare time, is he? Hes not exactly new to all this. But even still, the idea DOES work.
So anyway my point is this... How many of you have experience with crowd funding/sourcing sites such as these? Any of you ever actually get anywhere? And what do you suggest are the best ones?
TLDR - I need teh monies for teh help, whats the best crowd sourcing/funding sites to use, and whats your experiences?
I'm just making a little post, or rant, whatevers your poison, about "crowd funding". As a lot of you know, I currently co-lead an unpaid indie team on a project called "OverDose". Its hard work... So hard in fact that at times, it may as well be a real job. 4am is something I see most nights, work or not, much to my girlfriends delight. Thankfully she fully backs the whole thing and loves it, but anyway... The point is, its hard work.
In the past, I've reached out for help, and I won't lie, pretty much never got it. I struck gold a few times and had some real talent come over and say "Sure, looks like fun and I have some free time, I'm in" but most of the time, my pleas fall of deaf ears. Its not hard to see why... I'm making a game that has as much high quality art as possible, you know, like every other legit full time dev does that gets paid? Yeah... Money makes a lot of difference. However looking at even simple mods these days for games, I dunno if what I'm actually doing is even that high end anymore? It used to be back in the day when people were all diffuse only, but now, high poly sculpting seems much more "the norm".
So anyway, my issue... Of course I want money. I want loads of it. I want to make a little pool in my basement and dive into it, Scrooge McDuck style. But I work on OverDose for free, and damn right too. Getting paid doesn't change that fact, because lets face it, I bloody love it, and its so much more rewarding when you work on a project you love because you want to do it, ratehr than a project you cant stand because you are paid to do it. But money is always there... Mostly because I feel why in Gods name should I have to ask people to do stuff for me, FOR FREE, when I should be able to pay them for help?
Sadly, I'm not in a position to do that. Who is really, right? Which is why this whole crowd funding thing really pulled me in... So, off I go and register with Kickstarter...
...only to be told that my project "isnt what they want to back" and that its not what kickstarter is about. I get a bit puzzled with that, because I thought that was the whole point of it, but anyway... Very odd. So i search for others to see how they work. IndieGoGo seems good, but its very much a "word of mouth" service, with hardly any spotlight on you on the main page unless you make oodles of money... RocketHub was another, but thats even worse, with no chance of gettin funding unless you pretty much force it down peoples throat. Not really what I had in mind.
Now, crowd funding DOES work. Just look at Tim Schafer for example... Heading onto 3 million... Wowzers Penny... But then, hes hardly some guy sat in his living room in his spare time, is he? Hes not exactly new to all this. But even still, the idea DOES work.
So anyway my point is this... How many of you have experience with crowd funding/sourcing sites such as these? Any of you ever actually get anywhere? And what do you suggest are the best ones?
TLDR - I need teh monies for teh help, whats the best crowd sourcing/funding sites to use, and whats your experiences?
Replies
If you've tried all those three and no people are interested, well... maybe they just aren't into your game? Not much will change that I think.
The whole kickstarter thing really puzzled me. I can't understand why they won'#t allow the project on the site? Maybe its too violent for them, I dunno? But then, that sounds like a silly excuse? I thought the aim of Kickstarter was totally for projects such as mine with goals like mine to, well, get kick started?
I did email them asking for an actual reason why, and so far haven't heard anything back.
$100 is what people would expect to pay for an AAA production.
now, i'm not knocking the quality of your work, it's fantastic. it deserves to get you paid/laid/whatever. but at the end of the day, public perception is: "why am i paying AAA prices for some indie game?". it's as simple as that. i mean, i stop and think before i buy AAA games, let alone indie games with the same price tag.
The impression I get from Kickstarter projects is that they need to have an 'oh snap' quality of some kind. Now, that doesn't mean they're necessarily great but there needs to be that 'magical' element to pull people's funding. Consumers need to feel that 'Wow, I so need this in my life' to the point they're going to spend their money on a project that technically doesn't exist yet.
So a celebrity developer, or maybe a super simple but oh so ingenious product that helps accomplish an important task like a toothbrush that dispenses toothpaste, or maybe a beautifully designed product that accomplishes a not so important task, like a brushed aluminium iPhone dock with a super HD 3D OLED screen or something.
Any of the above and people will blindly throw money at it just because there's a desire factor, and a feeling of 'if I don't donate to this, maybe it will never happen'.
However, if you just have a 'hmm that looks kinda cool' product, then I don't think Kickstarter is ideal because people can live without the product and don't feel enough of a compulsion to go out of their way to help make it happen.
I think people also want concrete details on exactly what you get, when you get it and whether the final product will actually be what is represented in the concept. I know whenever I've considered Kickstarter donations I've checked to see how likely it is I will ever get something and whether the end product will actually be as great as they say it will.
I think Kotaku or Joystiq run a column called 'Insert Coin' or something, which may be worth a look.
EDIT: Ah it's not quite what I thought it was but it's called 'Indie Pitch'...http://www.joystiq.com/tag/joystiq-indie-pitch
Looks like you aren't giving it much of a chance yourself. Just saying! I hope you get mad cash so good luck. It's inspirational for us stuck in the hamster wheel and I hope you share the results with us.
You get a copy of the game, everything ekse below that, and fund the game. Thats why we said there that OF COURSE the game won't be that much, but you are helping to fund the game development, and by giving such a large ammount why shouldnt youi get a copy of the game on release? Would be a bit cheeky to say to people "hey, you paid that much for it, but ok now buy the game too!". If you think of it that way it sounds better, which is why the site says as much
I'm not dissing on the work you guys have done so far in a long shot, because it's absolutely badass. But you have to admit that a project as long running as Overdose and with that level of quality may end up raising a couple of "Vewwy nice, but will this ever get done? Even with funding"-questions.
But I dunno, I'd keep pressing on at Kickstarter to see what's going on. It's a bit lame they didn't give you a proper reasoning. And you deserve one.
Also, agreed with gir, you may want to bring down the reward thresholds a bit.
i'm not saying you don't deserve that much or that it's unfairly priced. i'm saying it could be perceived that way.
Good luck!
EDIT:
My 2 cents would be to swap tier 1 and 2 on indiegogo with everyone tier 1 and higher getting a copy of the game.
Well, OverDose has REALLY been in development for like a year or so, I mean full time proper. Before that were loads of tests and all sorts. Its only in the last year or so that we really pumped it up, and now that the entire rendering engine is complete I would say the chance of things progressing are max.
See below with my thought on the rewards. But as a side note, remember that even thought Tim Schafer is GOD right now with all this, he offers a $10,000 donation that just sees you and him... Have lunch.
Totally understand that. But I tried to make the whole post there about how you are funding OD development so we can hire new people, NOT that you are paying for the game. I just feel that if you were to donate so much (something that DOES happen, and happens a lot), then as an extra why shouldn't you get the game... As well? I dunno, that was my thoughts behind it but would be happy to hear more peoples thoughts!
I sadly can't edit ones that people have already donated to
EDIT: On reflection maybe the $40 should have offered it but not the lower? I say this because by the time Paypal and IndieGoGo take the cut, that $10 is not anywhere near $10, lol. I'll see what I can do.
EDIT 2: Ok, removed the $100 option totally. Added a note/update to say that the $40 and over perks all include a copy of the game. I can't do $10
And the other half of having a sucessful kickstarter is becoming viral, you have to get a minor web following behind a project, try to post it on sites like reddit and gain some game blog attention.
Do you have a target goal set up somewhere so people can see you need x $$$ to get 3 more programmers or whatever you need to finish and release? (it's taken me 20min to ype this with my kid underfoot so I haven't been able to check your sig links).
Honestly while I completely understand your motivation for setting the prices the way you have I've spent long enough in retail to know that you'll sell more copies at $10 than you ever will at $100 (or $40 or whatever).
And the Lunch With Schafer thing? please don't take this personally but you're not Tim Schafer and the type of people who have &10,000 to drop on a whim probably don't want to have lunch with you. (and really that was probably more of a joke to begin with anyway, like the doctored/un-doctored photo of Ron Gilbert smiling)
I's impressive what you've done with Overdose but your attitude has always turned me off, that might be why you have a hard time finding help.
And on sticking out, people don't care much at all for triple-a quality visuals, they want something that is different and new, something they just couldn't get anywhere else, and that becomes the force and pr machine.
This overdose project does look good and will probably be fun to play, but there's really nothing out of the ordinary in it, no big primary feature that just blows your mind, and without one it's going to be really hard to spread around or get people interested.
Also, a full explanation video:
A video that describes the project in full, with someone talking about it, and showing off the gameplay, describing what makes it different from every other game in the same genre, a video that people can pass along.
And if something cant be shown, describe it via concept art or drawings, sell the entire game in it.
I think the key factor here is not just price, it's that your project needs the desire factor. It doesn't matter if you price your pledges at $1... if the product isn't appealing enough for people to 'want to make it happen' then you're not gonna get much in the way of support.
You are seeing them as donations and not purchases - why is $100 the first tier where I get your game that (most likely shouldn't) be more than $20 on retail?
If you have a cool game that I effectively can pre-order for $20 or get the SUPER STOKED INTERNAL ACCESS stuff at $40, I'm going to be a lot more interested than spending $20 to get some really ancillary shit.
You're pre-loading your reward tiers with effectively Collectors Edition type stuff, rather than the meat of the game.
If you want to see crowdsourcing function, you need to treat it as a pre-order and not like a donation. Remember - these people are not investing in you, they aren't getting any returns other than what you are offering...which makes it a sale, not an investment, and you need to "sell" the idea accordingly.
I'm not sure if everybody really gets what's going with the page as such. It actually IS a donation page, that's the whole point of the page in general. You help fund projects to completion, NOT purchase them. The pricing may be odd to you but that's because you are thinking of it in terms of buying a title, not on funding it to completion. Take a look at any successful project on there and it's the same thing.
I'll ask this... Do you really think I should offer the game in the $10 donation? I'm debating it right now. I may not make as much that way but then the point is that I make it NOW, and offer the game to them later as the bonus.
EDIT: and BTW, $40 is the first place you could get the game, not $100.
Yes. What goes into that $10 is the risk that the person who funded will end up with nothing if you never finish the game. $10 is more than fair.
Your scale should go from practical->impractical. Meaning the very bottom donations should net you the most useful items. Ideally a basic purchase of the game for $15-20 dollars. Then at 40 you throw in the soundtrack and a digital artbook or something, then at 100 you get all that + name in credits or whatever and so on. Basically all the vanity stuff is at the top end of the 'donation' pool.
Which is why you need the mindset that you need to give people this thing that they absolutely need, not just ask for their kindness, people don't do crowdfunding out of kindness, they do it because they really want something.
$1+ - Every little helps, and will secure you a place on our credits screen for all the world to see!
$15+ - Donating $15 will secure you a copy of the game on release.
$45+ - Donating $45 or more will net you access to the OverDose Alpha/Beta (when available) as well as access soundtrack complete with updates if/when they become available! Soundtrack written and recorded by Luciano Giacomozzi & M. Baran Yasar.
$150+ - The big one... Not only do you get all of the above, but you will also have the chance to see yourself in the game as a player selectable head... and then watch as some no good dirty mutant blows it clean off. Good times...
$1-9 - Sound track and wallpaper packs
$10-20 - Actual game
$20-40 - Access to betas/prelease
$40-100 - Credits in game with a shout out
$250-500 - Suggest a weapon/idea/baddie
I could see having a seperate donors list and a special thanks list, it really just depends on what you want to do, but this is what most people expect.
But a huge part of me kept thinking theres guys on there doing the same with the same pro inv as me and getting money after a while. Also, there's people left right and centre asking for money for new cars and things on there oddly and they are getting it. I guess i was like "well I'm trying to do this to fund new help not my pockets why shouldn't I too?".
The wrong way to look. Thanks guys.
Good luck with your new fundraising attempt!
On Kickstarter most (all) projects use the money to cover production costs of something that the creator can already show a prototype of.
In the case of an Ipod stand or stylus, there is always a video of the device "in action". For the Adam Beane sculpt video and CX5 clay production, he can already show his art done with the material, and existing process videos to back him up. The doublefine guys also have a track record to show, therefore trust is already established and the cost are identified. (I doubt that their KS money will be used to pay salaries, because this goes against the KS rules, and their original target goal of 400 000 certainly would not cover the production of a game + the salaries of all involved)
I think this is why Kickstarter refused your project. You need to show something solid enough, build trust around that, and clearly define what the money will be used for. For instance, if games where still requiring physical CDs, you could say that you need funding to press the copies of the game, and offer funding options for a little more than the cost of pressing the disc, but less than a regular game.
It is also hard to justify such funding for a game project that tries to be "like the big guys" visually/technically speaking. One could argue that you are wasting ressources on visuals instead of focusing on gameplay. I would even say that you might have more success getting funding for a badass modelviewer based on your tech (Marmoset style), instead of trying to get the game itself founded - because no one can tell how your game will play, yet everyone can tell how a modelviewer works from looking at videos. However if you have a modelviewer up and running ... then that means you have almost completed your project, hence the only justification for KS founding would be server costs and bandwidth really.
You cannot use Kickstarter to simply "get free money". It only worked with Double Fine because they have a track record to begin with...
As I said previously, and as written all over the page no less, the money is not FREE money to just line pockets with, it's there to pay people to help, I course. I'm just fed up with people doing stuff for free, it's not on.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81117
If I could critique your pitch... I'm in pretty much complete agreement with Pior and I think you should consider re-writing the description. I probably unfortunately have more insight than most people on failed projects but when I read this the only thing I derived from it is that you have two people working on this and neither one of you knows how to manage a project.
Your pitch should include emphasis on:
(1) Is this game going to get done
(2) When is it going to get done
(3) How is the money going to help get this done ("we'll hire more ppl" isn't a plan)
From reading your page it looks like you haven't done any project planning at all and you picked this 20k goal out of a hat thinking "idk that should be enuff to pay for all the stuffs rite?" You've basically got no information up about what the money is going toward (Your section about "where is this money going" has no information about where the money is going, it's a paragraph about how you're both working on it for free. That doesn't tell anyone anything...) and there's really no info up that anyone can guage the probability of the projects success other than "We've been working on it forever, I promise it will come out eventually even if we have to work on it down to the last man!"
Assuming you had the money needed to hire the number of people you want, when would the game be done? Where exactly should development of the game be 3 months from now assuming everything is gone smoothly? How many people are you going to hire? How long will they work? On what will they work? This isn't information you necessarily need to post on your page but if you can't answer them then you won't be able to put up an estimated release date because you haven't done any planning and you shouldn't be asking for money. If you have all of your project development mapped out then state that and put up a planned release date.
I apologize if this seems rude or blunt but again, you have to look at this from the standpoint of someone making an investment and that is how I've interpretted your description as a potential investor...
You need to convince people of two things:
(1) That the product is good and worth the investment
(2) They're actually going to get something for their investment and are not just throwing their money away at someone elses fantasy.
You've only focused on #1.
And on that note I'd suggest cropping out most if not all of the information about the engine, very few people are going to understand the significance of the Quake 2 engine, let alone care about Portal and PVS visibility determination... I sunk half of puberty into Quake 2 and I don't even care... "The engine is pretty" is self-explanitory by the screenshots.
I'll sort it tomorrow, but so far I feel a tad disheartened by it all and dunno where to go. There's a lot to do, but doing things for free is always hard, even worse asking people to work with you do free. It's hard, hence why we need the support. But this will be out, with us two alone, this year. Sooner with help.
I'll sort it, but tomorrow. I can't do anything now. I do appreciate the feedback and everything, I'll try again tomorrow and hopefully do something that will please you all. Maybe I don't the the experience... But I do have the drive. And I'll sort it... Hopefully.
so chin up, and make the changes, and hopefully you'll have all the support you need!
Please don't get discouraged. I know a LOT of people who are in the same boat as you, and I've linked them this thread.
But as an aside, I happen to be acquainted with the former head of the IGDA Jason Dela Rocca, and he's started something very interesting.
The Indie Incubator. (And those that know Jason, is that he actually DOES shit).
http://www.realitypanic.com/archives/475
The basic way it works... is you pitch the team. Investors invest in the experienced team you've put together, that's it. There's no game pitch. Investors don't augment your ideas, nor do they accept great pitches from amateur 10 man teams that are unable to deliver on their GTA clone.
This means that if you're looking to that as a source of funding the best way to get it is to think about your products in that light - people aren't really investing in the game but the company behind it. Ideally then you'll want to offset risk by setting up a proper company (ltp, plc etc. don't know if Overdose has done this), which then offsets your personal liabilities should things not pan out (this is why the regulatory bodies don't like crowd funding, it doesn't generally provide security to offset investment risk - people have no guaranties). That's likely why odium didn't get accepted, it probably had nothing to do with the work, but rather the 'business' behind the application. I can only speculate however...
Second that, initiative, and Jason, he's a great guy. Where are you based Odium?
I looked through all the available videos on youtube, and most focus on engine details or artwork, but none of them says anything about the game itself in a way to sell itself.
I will do a video for overdose, like you say. Sadly not today as I'm with the other halves family until to tomorrow. But it certainly sounds like a good option.
For the new write up on the page, I was to cut the guff a tad, like you said. I'm thinking:
-Introduction, brief info on the game, where to find out more.
-Is the game going to get done, why?
-When is the game going to get done, why?
-How the money will help, where it will go, where it wont go.
-Closing comments.
And just so I know, I shouldn't harp on about engine tech (at least not at length, and instead provide a link to find out more about it), I shouldn't harp on about the team being just two... Am I missing anything?
Just as an aside, the money level wasn't picked out of a hat. That figure was for funding some work (10k) and for engine licence if we have any over (again, 10k). I didn't want to go higher because I want the engine licence to be something I cover at that stage of development anyway, regardless. But I can't have it be lower, because I've read some insane figures of what people charge for work these days.
Also, just a thought in passing : the Blur name might create confusion with the cinematics studio. My gut feeling tells me that it would be wise to avoid this kind of situation since it could be seen as some tactic to gather attention. (I am not implying that you are - just saying that it could be perceived that way)
Again, good luck!
Ok... Got a basic idea. I'll have a think. Cheers man.
instead of a video i get a block of capitalized, bolded and underlined red text as if i were looking at some particularly obnoxious forum post, but it's not a forum post is it, you're asking people to give you money and that's the first thing they see past a tells-you-nothing header graphic where a video should be?
why are there no representative screenshots on the funding page? why are the linked screenshots encoded as .pngs and take about a year to load. oh good, here's a picture of what the menu graphics look like, that's really what i wanted to know...?
do your homework. look over the successful kickstarter/indiegogo pages again, and realize that they all have charming, short videos to tell people about their projects. your lack of one is probably the single biggest reason nobody's paying attention. cut the body of text by two thirds. be charming and concise. don't edit it like a forum thread.
Not representative? Each shot on that page is taken ingame, mid action? Not staged. INGAME. What did you expect, power point arrows telling you whats going on? I already said I know all this and will change it, I just don't have access to that until tomorrow. This is why that red text exists, as bad a decision as it may be (and i'll be fixing that asap). Its so people don't get confused and think its a target render. Thats ingame, real time, no editing in post, me running around. Whats so hard to understand there?
Just as an aside, I did do my homework. On all the well received pages there. And most don't have videos. A lot do of course, which is why I'll add my own. Most don't have much of anything though. In fact, as I said before, a lot show no content, haven't even started anything, and are just some kid in a room saying "so this is what im going to do". In fact some of them as so retarded they go as far as 4 lines of texts saying "I crashed my car, need money for a new one as I'm at college, help me out!" and they have $3000. And yet mine, that I put thought in, is slammed by people like you. I don't mind it being wrong, hell no, I'll fix it until its right and people are happy with it, its what I do. I've re-done huge ammounts of work in the past due to people suggesting things. but don't talk to me like I don't give a flying hoot whats going on and that I don't care. Its far, far from that.
I'll get to fixing it when I can, i.e. tomorrow, maybe later if I have chance. But if I may so bold, not only have you just said what others have said, you kinda came off sounding high and mighty while saying it. Not needed. I get what needs to be changed, course I do, or I wouldn't have made changes like I have. But repeating the same thing over and over when I said I'll do it isn't helping. Least of all when its said in such a tone thats making me want to ignore you more than anything for the arrogant tone it conveys.
Just give me chance.
To be fair, it's worrying me sick as it is. This is new ground for me clearly, and something that might have a huge impact on the future of OverDose, whatever the outcome.
Edit: pissing iPhone lol
MyGiant Podcast - Running a Successful Kickstarter Campaign
You're getting Jack's honest initial reaction here, which is incredibly useful information, as most would be donators are going to be sold or lost with their initial reaction.
You really need to stop being so defensive, its really off putting. Atleast the guy who crashed his car is probably likeable. Making fun of what/how other people are begging for money while you're in the same situation doesn't make you look too great either.
If you honestly want input, just soak it in and work on it, don't come back with an excuse every time someone gives you their opinion.
Again, you sound arsey. Where, prey tell, do I mention I won't be changing or doing anything? Where have I made an excuse, other than the first page where I admitted I wasn't looking at it the right way and changed my whole thought process towards it? How can you not expect me to be not dumb founded by somebodyenjoying himself telling me how wrong I am because of using big bold red letters, when he obviously didn't even look at it. Smells an awful lot like trolling to me, because clearly he's not stupid?
His honest reaction is that of somebody who knows my quite frankly old posting style. Not that of somebody reading about it for the first time, but
somebody reading it knowing it's ME. I have all the time in the world for people. Too much you may say as I've dropped huge amounts of work at times to keep the masses happy. Implying I'm ignorant to people's suggestions here just because I can't do it until today is quite frankly absurd.