Game theft: Busted
polycounter lvl 18
Read the first post, the check the responses from Taylor Sherman of Valve. Kind of humorous.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/sh...mp;pagenumber=1
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/sh...mp;pagenumber=1
Replies
if i was caught trying to shoplift at a store 7 times then came in later that day after getting caught the 7th time, the store would have every right to deny me service even if i was planning to buy something legitimately.
[/ QUOTE ]
That analogy is flawed; they didn't just deny him service, they accepted his money and then denied him service. A more accurate analogy would be if someone attempted to buy something with a fake credit card multiple times, but was unsuccessful each time. So then that person finally decided to just use his own credit card, at which point the store accepted the transaction, but refused to give him what he had just paid for. I'm not even sure if something like this is legal
Those valve guys are real bastards. That cant be legal, can it? Anyone with law knowlege wanna clear that up? Im not trying to defend the pirate, but valve is as much of a theif as the pirate was.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I believe in the EULA for Steam, Valve reserves the right to suspend your account for any reason they very well please. But of course, a EULA isn't really considered a binding contract, and any real laws take precedent over any conditions of the license agreement. In the end, something like this is a bit frivolous to really consider legal action, but it's definitely something to keep in mind as a consumer. I know I'll be keeping this in mind the next time I think about buying a Valve product, because I really don't like the way they handled this.
funny read though.
You tried to steal from us, so you didn't gain anything.
You then LEGALLY obtain our product, but we're going to deny you of it after taking your $$$.
IMO, Valve's done more wrong then Epidem1c.
it would seem to me that legit account deserves legit treatment...
kid was stupid. he repeatedly tried to pirate a game under his user name. BAD. he decides to go buy game legit. GOOD. he tried to register his legit key on a 'known pirate' user account. STUPID. account and related keys are all banned. BAD LUCK.
he tried to pirate. got caught. his game keys blocked. money wasted. punishment served.
poor student? bah! ive had to pass over many games from not having enough money. but if i REALLY want them i can wait and buy them later when i do have the money. which i am in that scenario right now. been waiting for Resident Evil 4 for who knows how long. i have money but it has to go to rent and utilities. i have to wait.
:thunder and lightning::
<<<<<I HAVE THE POWERRRRRRRR!>>>>
Lamarr became the mighty Battlecrab!
and I became Taylor Sherman.... the most powerful man on the internet!!!!
heheee.
As long as we're doing analogies, lets try this one: Guy fails to steal a game from a store once, gets caught, arrested, booked, does jail time and/or pays a fine, and ends up with all this on his permanent record, end of story
if you attempt to steal cars, arent successful, later buy a car, and then the police track you down for previous attempted buglaries you go to jail and dont get to drive your new car.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a terrible analogy. The car dealership isn't stopping you from driving your car, the police are. There are no police in this story - Valve is serving as their own police force, and not a prticularly just one. I think the Epidemic kid is a lying jackass, but I don't think Valve's hamfisted outlaw justice is right either. Not all gamers are fined $55 for hacking HL2, only those who eventually do decide to do the right thing and by the game legally.
The real clever bit is that Valve doesn't do anything to deny you possession or ownership of your software license - that would be impossible to legally enforce. Instead, they ban your Steam account, which is technically a free online service they provide. If their banning of your free Steam account means you can't play your bought-and-paid for video games, that's just too bad for you.
As long as we're doing analogies, lets try this one: Guy fails to steal a game from a store once, gets caught, arrested, booked, does jail time and/or pays a fine, and ends up with all this on his permanent record, end of story
[/ QUOTE ]
...
Going to Best Buy and paying $55 for a video game is not a "fine". At no point in the Steam user agreement does anyone agree to a "fine" if they are caught breaking he rules. And, again, there are no police in this story. You want a correct analogy using real world goods?
A guy attempts to steal a video game and fails. On his next trip in, the store lets him legally buy the game, taking his money. However, on his way out the door, the store decides he was guilty of attempted theft the previous time and sends the store security guards to take away his just legally purchased game. In the end, the store had nothing stolen, they keep their merchandise and they also take the kid's money as a "fine".
If a store takes your money and refuses to give you the product you paid for, that's called stealing, and it's no more right than shoplifting. Not that it matters, not when vigilante justice is just so appealing...
Think of it this way. What if the kid attempted to pirate the game many times, like he did, and then got caught and account terminated. AND THEN, bought the game with hopes of playing it with a legit cd key. Is that any different? Valve can't play parent to irresponsible children. Criminals need to be punished. It's not like he's looking at jail time. Simply no Valve developed games for him. He's a thief and a liar, and this should teach him a lesson. Which, from his last post...i doubt it.
As for whether Valve has the legal right to do it, personally I don't care. I say they do, though. An EULA may not be a "legally binding contract"-- that is, it is not illigal to break them and you cannot be arrested for doing so. They are "legal" contracts in the sense that you agree with the terms put forth, and the rules and consequences within them are not simple BS. If an EULA says that a company can revoke the liscence to use the software they are providing you with without reason or warning, then, simply put, they can, and it is not illigal for them to do so. Since the only thing allowing you to use software is a liscence, then if you don't agree to the liscence terms, then you do not have the legal right to use the sofware.
The EULA giveth, and the EULA taketh away.
They are "legal" contracts in the sense that you agree with the terms put forth, and the rules and consequences within them are not simple BS. If an EULA says that a company can revoke the liscence to use the software they are providing you with without reason or warning, then, simply put, they can, and it is not illigal for them to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily. I could put a sign on my house that states "By entering my house, you are hereby agreeing to the following terms and conditions: 1.) I reserve the right to stab you in the face for any reason whatsoever." Even if they read the sign and agree to the 'terms and conditions,' I am still breaking the law when I stab them in the face unprovoked when they were invited guests to my home. What Valve did could be considered illegal (it's probably a bit of a gray area, because of the method by which they did it). The bottom line is a customer paid for their product, and they failed to deliver said product. Whether or not the customer previously tried to pirate one of their products is irrelevant (it is up to the judicial system to prosecute and sentence them, not Valve), Valve either owes them access to the product they paid for, or a refund for the product.
I decided to skim over the Steam EULA, and the agreement is pretty impotent in terms of legal validity. Particularly, section 13 which states that "Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion." You can not amend a contract unilaterally and expect that agreement to remain valid. This is pretty irrelevant in this particular case, since the guy wasn't burned because of an amendment to the EULA, but I just wanted to point out how much of a joke most EULAs are.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to justify this guy's actions. I am passionate about videogames, and believe that anti-piracy is a noble cause, but I am also an advocate of consumer rights.
You don't try to rob a bank (several times) and then walk in there a few hours later to deposit your check from work. That's plain stupid.
How's this analogy: You break into someone's house while they are gone, and bring some of your rightfully owned stuff into their house. When they come home, they kick you out (and probably kick your ass), and you leave your shit behind. I'd say "Tough luck for you". I don't know, it's a tricky situation, and there aren't many good analogies for it.
On a side note, I got a free copy of HL2 (basically a 2nd copy, since I'd already bought it on the day it came out) with my new video card at FutureShop. I grabbed the last copy off the shelf, and didn't realize until I'd got home that it had been opened and the first CD sleeve was missing. Some jackass opened the package and stole the only thing that really matters: the CD key! Funny thing is, what would a security guard do if they caught him walking out? Search him and find a slip of paper with a number on it? Nothing, because he wouldn't recognize it for what it is. Not a big deal though, I brought it back and am getting a new copy (when their next shipment arrives).
say there's an amusement park. you have to buy a ticket to enter the park. you decide to hop the fence and enter anyway. security catches you and throws you out. repeat this until they ban you. now you decide to buy a ticket. the front gate sells you the ticket but then when you enter the security guards recognize you and throw you out because you've been banned. you can wave your ticket under their noses all you want but just because you can buy a ticket doesn't mean you are allowed in the park.
valve didn't steal a thing from this person. they bought the game. they own the cds, the box ect... but they also abused the steam service and lost the right to use that service.
he bought a ticket after losing the right to enter the park.
All analogies aside (and so far all the analogys people have given were peon vs. peon, not peon vs. BIG COMPANY WITH BIG NAME) I think both sides were in the wrong on this one.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to justify this guy's actions. I am passionate about videogames, and believe that anti-piracy is a noble cause, but I am also an advocate of consumer rights.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, that's where I'm at on this. The guy isn't being punished so much for what happened as for the order in which it happened. If he tries to use a fake login, then Valve closes his account, then he buys HL2 legally and makes a new account, he doesn't get screwed out of his money. I've heard some say that it's just the kid's bad luck to get nailed like this - how just is this system if the $55 penalties are handed out due to 'luck' rather than equally applied to all would-be thieves?
while we're doing analogies and since my first was incorrect lets try this:
say there's an amusement park. you have to buy a ticket to enter the park. you decide to hop the fence and enter anyway. security catches you and throws you out. repeat this until they ban you. now you decide to buy a ticket. the front gate sells you the ticket but then when you enter the security guards recognize you and throw you out because you've been banned. you can wave your ticket under their noses all you want but just because you can buy a ticket doesn't mean you are allowed in the park.
valve didn't steal a thing from this person. they bought the game. they own the cds, the box ect... but they also abused the steam service and lost the right to use that service.
he bought a ticket after losing the right to enter the park.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they sold you a ticket despite your being banned, that's their mistake. They don't get to keep your money just because they made a mistake. Either they let you in the park like a paying customer or they give you back your money and THEN escort you out of the park. You punishment for sneaking into the park was being banned from the park; your punishment was not being banned from the park and alsoforced to pay the price for one admission.
while we're doing analogies and since my first was incorrect lets try this:
say there's an amusement park. you have to buy a ticket to enter the park. you decide to hop the fence and enter anyway. security catches you and throws you out. repeat this until they ban you. now you decide to buy a ticket. the front gate sells you the ticket but then when you enter the security guards recognize you and throw you out because you've been banned. you can wave your ticket under their noses all you want but just because you can buy a ticket doesn't mean you are allowed in the park.
valve didn't steal a thing from this person. they bought the game. they own the cds, the box ect... but they also abused the steam service and lost the right to use that service.
he bought a ticket after losing the right to enter the park.
[/ QUOTE ]
But they dont take the ticket away from you. You then can give it to your buddy or whatever.
Its Valves fault they didnt ban him right after he used the fake keys.
Better analog would be you going to school, you do something stupid before they accept you, now they let you go to the school and you pay them but right after you have paid for your last semester they kick you out becuase of the crap you did before you were accepted.
is HL2 really worth all this hasle? i certainly dont think so .
I'd also categorize this as discrimination as they are basing their actions on past accounts, regardless of whether he has seen the errors of his way or not. What Valve needs to realize is that this kid is a customer, no matter what he has done in the past.
btw, I do not condone software stealing in any way, and if Valve wants to prosecute him, it is fine by me, but denying him of service that he already bought is one thing they should not do, especially after receiving his money.
Am I the only one thankfull this wallhackin' idiot is banned from the fun? I mean, this is just darwinism at work: it's like saying (ok, ok, the analogy is gonna be way harsh, but still) that a convicted pedophile can still work at a primary school, because he got the job on his accedemic merits, even when it's later discovered what he did (and thus should not be working at the school).
Hell, the legitamite key this guy finally used might just be the one Warghoul is missing.
whos to say the guy from valve isnt lieing about the evidence they had
[/ QUOTE ]
The thief. He proved he was busted on that one.
I still believe the last post by Taylor says it all:
[ QUOTE ]
"I just didn't want to"
OK, thanks for answering my questions.
As to your question: you forefeited all rights to your Steam account when you tried to steal from us. The fact that you registered a legitimate key before we noticed and disabled the account, well that's just bad luck I guess.
[/ QUOTE ]
Put yourself in Valves shoes. You spend 5 years designing a game, and this little punk tries to steal it. Then after being caught, tries to make you look bad by posting lies on a forum. There is a radio show in my area with a segment called "Dumb Crook News". This would fit well.
Analogy: Your neighbor has a wireless LAN installed from his cable modem. He hands you and extra Wireless LAN USB Adapter with the Security key. You try to access his internet connection, but it doesn't work because of the distance between the houses. So you buy a cable modem and make a service call to have a connection installed. During the setup, they discover you've been attemtping to leech the internet from your neighbors setup, and so deny you service. You own the modem. It's yours. The service isn't.
Frank the Avenger
I can't help but think that while I'm sure he is pissed off, he could be in a worse situation.
when this guy bought the software he thought he was buying the right to use it ... but thats obviously not the case , valve have stopped him from using it by denying the steam sevice to him. so in fact he was buying the steam service , not the game ... i pretty sure its different ... maybe when you buy it retail it should say Hl2 steam account on the box , coz thats what your buying ...
You can buy a car and not be legally allowed to drive it: you still own the car (what you payed for) but for whatever reason (license removed for drunk driving) you can't use it.
I still stand by one thing: he's a dumb-ass for using the same account.
Personally, I don't think Valve stole his money, they didn't sell him the game. Wal-Mart (or whomever) did. If I buy an iD software game and the discs are bad, I take it back to the person bought it from, not iD.
Why doesn't he take back the software he bought? Unless he was stupid enough to buy it from a store that doesn't allow returns, or he stole it as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm.. weren't you missing the first disk?
Scott
In our case, the "thief" attempted to steal a CDKey (Copyright Infringement or Hacking, I think, though I'm not really sure that's illegal at all since you cannot copyright such short sequences of letters and numbers, hacking might work) and failed (intent is probably punishable enough). In return, Valve sold him a game under the pretense the game would work but it turned out it didn't and therefore commited an act of fraud. If a thief stole your stuff, you tracked him down a day later and beat him up, both of you commited a crime, he for stealing and you for assault. I think there's even a special law about "self-justice". Only the court can convict someone of a crime and order a punishment (except for internal cases of the military), that's what a legal state entails. You cannot punish people without evidence, you cannot punish them out of common sense, you cannot punish them without a proper trial. Valve MUST file a lawsuit, prove him guilty and THEN he is punished in the way the court sees as appropriate.
The "thief" commited a crime, Valve commited a crime. A judge ruled that even if the intention of the victim was criminal that doesn't excuse the defendant from any crime THEY commit, the specific example was a tainted mp3 spawned by some RIAA subordinates, the downloader wanted to download an illegal mp3 but all he got was garbage: Even though he did have a criminal intention (downloading an illegal MP3), the RIAA offered a "product" that wasn't what they made the downloader believe it was, which constitutes fraud.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's an analogy that I think applies to this one. A thief steals your paper every morning. You wake up early and leave some dogshit in the newspaper and the thief can't read his morning news so it's YOUR fault.
[ QUOTE ]
In our case, the "thief" attempted to steal a CDKey (Copyright Infringement or Hacking, I think, though I'm not really sure that's illegal at all since you cannot copyright such short sequences of letters and numbers, hacking might work) and failed (intent is probably punishable enough). In return, Valve sold him a game under the pretense the game would work but it turned out it didn't and therefore commited an act of fraud. If a thief stole your stuff, you tracked him down a day later and beat him up, both of you commited a crime, he for stealing and you for assault. I think there's even a special law about "self-justice". Only the court can convict someone of a crime and order a punishment (except for internal cases of the military), that's what a legal state entails. You cannot punish people without evidence, you cannot punish them out of common sense, you cannot punish them without a proper trial. Valve MUST file a lawsuit, prove him guilty and THEN he is punished in the way the court sees as appropriate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Valve didn't beat this guy up. They promised to relieve him of the right to use Steam if he tried to steal from them, (which includes all the games it supports) and they lived up to that promise. </cue forlorn trumpet> Now the kid replies with threats about getting his way one way or the other. He's getting off really easy.
In the end, I don't think this is some grave injustice; I don't think Valve intentionally screwed him out of his money (even if he did deserve it), but I think this has made me a bit 'gun-shy' when it comes to any future transactions with Valve that I may consider.
Here's an analogy that I think applies to this one. A thief steals your paper every morning. You wake up early and leave some dogshit in the newspaper and the thief can't read his morning news so it's YOUR fault.
[/ QUOTE ]
What KDR posted wasn't an analogy, it was an example of an actual case. In legal terms, this is called "precedent." Precedent is often used to determine the outcome of a similar case. Also, your analogy is flawed. Keep in mind that with the Valve situation, nothing was ever actually stolen.
[ QUOTE ]
Valve didn't beat this guy up. They promised to relieve him of the right to use Steam if he tried to steal from them, (which includes all the games it supports) and they lived up to that promise.
[/ QUOTE ]
No they didn't 'beat him up' literally, but they served their own justice. That was the point.
[ QUOTE ]
Say there's an amusement park. You have to buy a ticket to enter the park. There is a sign on the front gate (a little off to the side) that clearly states, "Trying to sneak into the park, trying to get into the park with fake tickets, or any other attempts to get into the park without a valid ticket will get you permanently banned from the park." Failing to heed this sign, you find or create a fake ticket. The front gate attendent recognizes your ticket as a fake and won't let you in, and reports you to security. You print another fake ticket and try again. Repeat four more times. So begins the banning process. The order goes to security, who will eventually get a picture of you in hand with instructions to eject you from the park if you're spotted. This takes a while. In the meantinme, you decide to buy a real ticket, so you go to a third-party ticket agent. This agent sells you the ticket, and you throw away your receipt, which doesn't matter, because the ticket agent has a "no-returns" policy anyway. The attendant at the front gate only sees your good ticket, and doesn't recognize you but, since your ticket scans as legit, lets you through the gates. After hanging out for a bit, and enjoying a couple rides, your picture finally circulates to a particular security guard, who spots you, recognizes you, and throws you out because you've been banned. You can wave your ticket under their noses all you want but just because you can buy a ticket doesn't mean you are allowed in the park.
[/ QUOTE ]