Daves Female Character Thread

Dave Jr

Hi guys and thanks for visiting my thread!

I was working on this in my spare time a few weeks before Christmas, but really needed to go back to anatomy fundamentals. I've since done a lot of research, bought an anatomy figurine, collected and USED a ton of reference and hopefully am now on my way to creating a portfolio piece!

I'm trying to achieve a likeness in this female character, more so in the face then anywhere else and have chosen this actor due to realistic proportions then that of the average stereotypical model.

Actor "Claire Holt" - Plays Rebekah in Vampire Diaries the Originals.
http://www.pinterest.com/ashleyboten/claire-holt/

Moodboard of actor:




* Still To Repose as MM suggested
* Sort out hands
* Sort out Feet

**ORIGINAL STARTING PIECE** - Latest can be found on my up to date posts.






**I haven't as of yet touched the hands or the feet; and ideally I know the hands as they are - are too small.**

If theres anything I can improve on, I'd appreciate any feedback before I move onto making clothes/armour.

Cheers

ysalex

Looking good.

Please forgive my awful 2d skills.

The upper half is significantly more accurate and developed than below the waist, which is where most of any visible problems are.

The face is harder to crit, but I would say that it is vertically too long. The underchin and neck are also underdeveloped. On most people, even people with thinner necks, the neck should generally align with the mastoid. Your have the sunken eyes and prominent cheekbones of your reference are represented, but I think that she has a much more delicate chin. The chin might be adding to the underchin problems, but I would add some mass to that area so that it does not angle up, but rather slightly down or at the least, straight back to where it meets the neck.

But you are still really low subdiv, so some work on the face masses trying to hit the reference you will probably be able to figure out, you're certainly getting there, and liknesses always just take time and finesse and a lot lot lot of references.

Here is the body paintover, it's solely focused on the lower half. I would also widen her stance a bit, it is much easier to sculpt in this position.


Edit: yeah and eyeballing your proportions I would say that they are good, everything seems to be the right length and size, I think that the lower half just needs the masses adjusted. In particular the weight of the hips dropped to the bottom of the butt, and the mass of the calf also dropped quite a bit.

Last I mentioned it in the paintover, but the thigh should generally be covex shaped from almost every angle, so if you see big concave curves they need to be brought out.

chamade

Regarding the face, look closely at the nose bridge. It should be narrower and follow a more concave curve from the front. Currently it feels too wide and rigid.
Your eyes are currently too big which is giving it a bit of a manga look. Making those smaller will help making it more natural. Once you make the eyes smaller then the mouth will appear too big as well and it will need to be made smaller.

Also, remember that the eyes will generally be in the middle of the head (vertically), currently they seem to be a bit high which is throwing off the proportions.

MM

you may want to avoid the chicken wing arm pose. it drives me nuts. i only see super models doing that while in a cat walk. normal people in relaxed natural pose will never have their arm posed like that. you can see for yourself on your own arm, relax and look at mirror.

here is a image Tom posted which explains the issue.

A is what you have now, B is what you should use.

Dave Jr

WOW,

thanks for the quick response guys; I really appreciate it, and I'll be using the feedback and re-post tonight with a new update on my progress!

AMAZING, THANKS!

Dave Jr

Latest Update.

As Usual feedback would be immensely grateful I need a point in the right direction, and want to make this as best as I possibly can!

Cheers and appreciated!

ysalex

Don't know if it's me but I can't see the image

ysalex

Sorry, just realized you put the update in the first post as an edit, confused me for a second.

It's looking more natural to my eye. I think that the legs and face are still the more unfinished areas. The chin still needs to be more finesse, right now it is more hammer-like, very wide and jutting. Her chin, although not weak by any means, has a more graceful structure to it.

Dave Jr

ysalex wrote: »

Sorry, just realized you put the update in the first post as an edit, confused me for a second.

It's looking more natural to my eye. I think that the legs and face are still the more unfinished areas. The chin still needs to be more finesse, right now it is more hammer-like, very wide and jutting. Her chin, although not weak by any means, has a more graceful structure to it.

Ah right,

Ok will continue to crack on today will work on the legs and then go back to the face

Again thanks for the feedback!

Dave Jr

Ok latest update:

Still blocking in the hair - think I might redo it as poly planes... might be more effective considering her hairstyle - let me know what you think; and if someone could share some feedback it would be greatly appreciated before I repose and go back to the legs!

Cheers

Dave

ysalex

I would say that right now with the face, I would go back and try to pull out some of the planes a bit more. Trying to deal in the subtle curves of the face is sort of overwhelming, because they all lead one into the other, but finding the planes will help you nail those transition areas. Right now her face is a bit 'bubbly', with overemphasized cheekbones and sunken eyes, I think finding those planes will help sort that out.

Did most of my critiquing here, sorry about my handwriting.

ysalex

Oh yeah, and look up crazyfools (tom) video on a hair-plane brush for zbrush, its a super timesaver and looks great.

Dave Jr

Thank you ever so much!

As tonight's friday, I'll be working on the ammends to the head and legs til quite late and post the progress

Dave Jr

Ok Latest Update to Head, currently working on the hair via polyplanes and will post tonight with the update legs / arm pose as MM suggested.

Any feedback on the head would be GREATLY appreciated

Dave Jr

Update! ^

Dave Jr

Can slowly see an improvement... really struggling on achieving a closer likeness now

Crits appreciated!

KazeoHin

the likeness is definitely coming through.

Dave Jr

Thanks for the kind words, Hopefully It'll eventually be a good enough likeness..

If anyone could please share some crits to help me improve it; it'd be greatly appreciated!

stevston89

Some crits. I think the neck is too thick, the eyes are too big and shaped wrong, the nose is too big, the lips are a bit big, the transition for the cheekbone to the cheeks is too harsh, the ears are too high and angled out too much, the jaw isn't quite wide enough and needs to be a bit sharper, and I would also start adding in some a-symmetry to match a bit better. Here is a little paintover gif. Keep up the improvement!

Dave Jr

Thank you so much for the feedback, I'll get onto it as soon as I finish work it means alot; and I can see myself improving alot already - its incredibly motivational when others see your progress too

Dave Jr

Tonights Update - A Big *THANKS* to all the crits so far, and please keep them coming!

Dave Jr

Bumping this in the hope of some critique for tonights development

Stirls

The nasolabial folds, to me, seem too tight. A good rule of thumb is that they start midway (or above) at the nostril and arc out near the corners of the mouth.

Much better though. You're improving heaps!

Dave Jr

Stirls wrote: »

The nasolabial folds, to me, seem too tight. A good rule of thumb is that they start midway (or above) at the nostril and arc out near the corners of the mouth.

Much better though. You're improving heaps!

Thank you for the critique its greatly appreciated and I shall work on it immediately

matsman

HI dave... first let me say nice project!
Progress is really coming along. My tip is take it slowly, try to make small adjustments only focussing on one shape or line in the face, then see how this moves to the whole.

Also I read the title out of the corner of my eye and I would swear it read "dwarves female character thread" I had really hoped someone would do some nice dwarven females, with soft shampoo commercial beards or something

ysalex

I am of the opposite opinion of matsman. You should never let yourself get zoned into a feature before you are ready, which I think is what people tend to want to do when sculpting faces, and in particular doing likenesses. It is almost impossible to pull off a face if you are sculpting feature by feature without a proper base-structure.

A stupid analogy but it's all that comes to mind, but trying to sculpt a face piece-meal like that would be like trying to do a puzzle with binoculars on, it limits what you see and how you incorporate the whole thing together. Faces, by and large, are a structure with some very specific features. It is not the specifics of the features that we recognize however, it's the structure. As artists that is where we have to learn to work, even though it doesn't feel natural at first.

I also harbor a suspicion that your technique is a bit off. My suggestion would be to dynamesh the face to a lower subdiv once, and then use larger sized 'clay buildup' brushes to get the structure. I would emphasize not using the MOVE tool, and not using the SMOOTH tool. Rather, use add or sub clay buildup, and then use the TRIM DYNAMIC brush to smooth out areas. This will give the added effect of smoothing your model down into planes, rather than into curves.

A lot of fantastic artists use the MOVE tool, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think that forcing yourself to use larger brushes helps you learn structure at its most general.

I'm going to be in the google hangout https://plus.google.com/events/cptqbcoc3qclpk61nnp4p8tfe5g?authkey=CLXv_MeTzNbxcg

for awhile, if you want to jump on maybe I can take a look at how you work. Not that I'm an expert, but you never know. I'll be on for another hour or two.

Dave Jr

ysalex wrote: »

I am of the opposite opinion of matsman. You should never let yourself get zoned into a feature before you are ready, which I think is what people tend to want to do when sculpting faces, and in particular doing likenesses. It is almost impossible to pull off a face if you are sculpting feature by feature without a proper base-structure.

A stupid analogy but it's all that comes to mind, but trying to sculpt a face piece-meal like that would be like trying to do a puzzle with binoculars on, it limits what you see and how you incorporate the whole thing together. Faces, by and large, are a structure with some very specific features. It is not the specifics of the features that we recognize however, it's the structure. As artists that is where we have to learn to work, even though it doesn't feel natural at first.

I also harbor a suspicion that your technique is a bit off. My suggestion would be to dynamesh the face to a lower subdiv once, and then use larger sized 'clay buildup' brushes to get the structure. I would emphasize not using the MOVE tool, and not using the SMOOTH tool. Rather, use add or sub clay buildup, and then use the TRIM DYNAMIC brush to smooth out areas. This will give the added effect of smoothing your model down into planes, rather than into curves.

A lot of fantastic artists use the MOVE tool, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think that forcing yourself to use larger brushes helps you learn structure at its most general.

I'm going to be in the google hangout https://plus.google.com/events/cptqbcoc3qclpk61nnp4p8tfe5g?authkey=CLXv_MeTzNbxcg

for awhile, if you want to jump on maybe I can take a look at how you work. Not that I'm an expert, but you never know. I'll be on for another hour or two.

Cheers Ysalex,

Yeah you kinda nailed it on the head there - Move tool, standard brush and Smooth brush are my main tools. The only thing i'm worried about is when I dynamesh to a lower subdiv I lose alot of detail; and I mean like the eye shape collapsing etc.

In terms of concentrating on feature by feature; I generally move around quite a bit, I'll work on the eye, then try to line it up properly with the mouth etc... I find it easier to match feature to feature to feature rather then concentrate on 1 at a time.

I'd happily go on Google+ but i'm at work atm so unavailable for several hours; however I do appreciate the feedback and will try what you've suggested for sure If you have any suggestions for my concerns with the loss in shape/collapsing of features when I dynamesh then itd be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Also, if you have any suggestions on my latest update in terms of proportions etc it would be awesome.

ysalex

Losing specific features when you dynamesh was why I suggested it. Losing that detail, then using large clay brushes, forces you to work in general shapes, rather than focusing on small things like the nasio folds etc. That stuff is for much later in the process, when you are sure that you have the base done right.

I do this all the time when I work. It took me a long time to learn not to try to hard to 'protect' my work, but be more willing to throw out what I have when it is not working. Before I learned this, I would spend weeks on the same head model, meticulously using the move tool, the standard brush, and the smooth brush to move things about wherever my eye thought it needed to go.

It resulted in a cycle of non-progession, just moving my problem areas around from place to place, because I was never aware of the 'whole' or the general structure.

When I learned to use bigger brushes, to use the trim brushes to add planes instead of smooth curves, is when I both saw a much bigger difference in my work, because it forced me to work in the general, and also when I got faster at what I was doing.

Pm me sometime if you want to jump into a hangout. Again, not sure you'd learn a ton, but you never know, I am certainly not a model of perfect form.

matsman

Okay... so I want to clarify here... that I am not talking on focussing on a small detail area like nasal folds or eyes... but more on the lines of the face, the shading on the cheekbones.

Critique like stevston89 only works because he looked at the curve of the jawline, the shape of the nose and the mouth position. If you only look for the whole structure you won't get there. You have to focus on getting those pieces in place and as close as possible to your ref for likeness. Even thought the mouth can be 3 lines, those lines have to match up to the ref for likeness.

Theory says You should always move the big pieces and work smaller and smaller. However I find it really helps putting a litte (temporary) detail in to help guide the eye and getting the bigger shapes spot on as some kind of clotheshanger.

And smoothing with "trim dynamic" is great advice!

ysalex

I was responding to this:

try to make small adjustments only focusing on one shape or line in the face, then see how this moves to the whole.

That's wrong, at least to me. I always hesitate to say anything is right or wrong since this is art, and different people do it different ways, but to me what you said is wrong. It's not about single lines etc, it's more about structure.

When I say to start structural, putting a general structure in place, I am talking about the masses of the head, the most simple planes of the face, the structure of the skull etc.

If you only look for the whole structure you won't get there.

Not really sure how to take this, I guess we just disagree.

Dave Jr

Despite the differences, I appreciate both methods and all the advice I can get

Will update later accordingly with dynamesh >.<"

Dave Jr

Ok Tonights Update, concentrated on really trying to add in the facial planes Ysalex mentioned. I originally dynameshed and kept getting nowhere for about 2 hours.. then rather then dynamesh, I worked on my lowest subdivision and really tried to match the transitions. I used a few good plane references from google; as well as the "girls only thread" in which I was able to look over some already completed female heads. Great and inspirational work there.

Again, Critique would be GREATLY appreciated. I don't get anywhere without you guys!

- YSalex, if you still think theres ANY issues with my head please mention it and we will have to sort out that googlehangout to help me understand these new fundamentals it means alot so thanks for the help.

edit: Not sure if this update is more of a step backwards after comparing in photoshop. PLEASE let me know what you think for some guidance Cheers

PRIOR:




LATEST UPDATE:

Dave Jr

Shameless bump for a few pointers/crits for tonights progress

stevston89

Personally I think you lost a ton of volume in the latest update and a farther away in terms of likeness. I think you are getting to the point soon where you are going to be overworking the face. I would recommend taking a break from the head and work on other sections for a couple of days. Once you come back to the face you will immediately notice what you need to change. Keep it up!

Dave Jr

stevston89 wrote: »

Personally I think you lost a ton of volume in the latest update and a farther away in terms of likeness. I think you are getting to the point soon where you are going to be overworking the face. I would recommend taking a break from the head and work on other sections for a couple of days. Once you come back to the face you will immediately notice what you need to change. Keep it up!

Thanks, after looking at this morning I had to agree. I'm going to rework some of the body and make a mock-up of the clothes.

matsman

Dave: I think you smoothed a bit to much... you lose the volume then.
your comment "after comparing in photoshop" makes me think you are trying to train your eye comparing only next to each other. Is this right?
For best likeness I would recommend comparing more often. For better training I would recommend doing a part, compare directly, then go back to before and try to redo the part not making the same mistake(s).
In both circumstances your feedbackloop is much smaller getting results faster.

Ysalex: I think you are right we disagree... I'm not starting a row here
What is your background? I started doing comic style drawing and am therefor mostly about lines. I struggle for speed while painting mostly because of that, needing a good line base first. However getting likeness is for me really about lines, lines around shapes, invisible lines to match things up. This gives me zen in vertex pushing as well, trying for the perfect grid.

Dave Jr

matsman wrote: »

Dave: I think you smoothed a bit to much... you lose the volume then.
your comment "after comparing in photoshop" makes me think you are trying to train your eye comparing only next to each other. Is this right?
For best likeness I would recommend comparing more often. For better training I would recommend doing a part, compare directly, then go back to before and try to redo the part not making the same mistake(s).
In both circumstances your feedbackloop is much smaller getting results faster.

Ysalex: I think you are right we disagree... I'm not starting a row here
What is your background? I started doing comic style drawing and am therefor mostly about lines. I struggle for speed while painting mostly because of that, needing a good line base first. However getting likeness is for me really about lines, lines around shapes, invisible lines to match things up. This gives me zen in vertex pushing as well, trying for the perfect grid.

Ah no,

I compare as often as I possibly can to a range of references, and have just taken to drawing facial planes on each image I use so that I can try and recreate a similar head structure as Ysalex mentioned.

The comparison between my prior work is simply I take a screenshot at the end of each day and am able to compare my first day to my last for progression purposes. This way Im able to see my own improvement

But thank you though, all help and advice is appreciated.

Dave Jr

Ok Todays Update:

Can see a significant improvement in todays upload; I think its due to drawing facial planes on several of the actress's reference photos. Helped me understand the structure much more.

Again, Crits are EXTREMELY appreciated I don't show my work to anyone other then Polycount so feedback is vital for my improvement

- Forgot to loosen the nasolabial folds as suggested - shall work on it first thing...

ysalex

Improvements man, lots of improvements. On mobile or I would do a markup. From 3/4 angles she seems to have a slightly off eye socket, I think this might be getting pushed out because her eyeballs are too big, but it's hard to be sure. Also from the side I would say that her neck is too skinny and the angles are a bit off, might be worth looking up a few profile references from just random females and see.

Are you working with refs inside of zbrush, or using pics on another monitor or some such?

Dave Jr

ysalex wrote: »

Improvements man, lots of improvements. On mobile or I would do a markup. From 3/4 angles she seems to have a slightly off eye socket, I think this might be getting pushed out because her eyeballs are too big, but it's hard to be sure. Also from the side I would say that her neck is too skinny and the angles are a bit off, might be worth looking up a few profile references from just random females and see.

Are you working with refs inside of zbrush, or using pics on another monitor or some such?

Hi Yuri,

Im on a laptop; don't have a second screen so I generally just use the zbrush opacity slider to see references underneath so to speak; it allows me to compare quite quickly. - I havent imported any images into Zbrush as to be honest; I totally forgot I could!

The eyeballs themselves are actually huge, their size could probably be halved and still fit.

Yeh I agree on the neck issue definitely - which angles where you refering to?

Cheers for the feedback improvements thanks to yourself; hard to believe what I first posted and what i've produced in the space of just over a week.

If you have any more crits on what/where to improve please do say!!

THANKS

ysalex

Yeah having really large, or even slightly large, eyeballs is a pretty common thing, I do it myself all the time and use anatomy refs to double check now. Basically when the eye is too big, it forces the curve of the entire eye socket to be much too shallow. From the front it's fine, but from the 3/4th view a shallow eye socket gets pushed out sideways. When the eye sockets is too far to the outside of the face, everything else follows - cheekbones, cheeks, temple etc.

When I get a chance I will paint the neck area over. And I was just asking about the refs things for curiosity, using zbrush opacity is just as good a way to do things as any other way.

Dave Jr

Shameless Bump for Feedback

stevston89

The transition from your brow to eyelid is just wrong. That area is the eyelid tucking under the brow. Currently you have it as a crease when in reality it is a fold. I agree with Yuri the eye area in general is a bit flat, but I also think your eyes are to wide and still a bit large. Take a look at the distance between the upper edge of her eye and the fold where the brow meets the eyelid. You should have the upper eyelid getting small because the brow overlaps it. Currently the upper eyelid is just the same size all the way across. Also the cheekbone should be more prominent. Here are a few reference images to help out.

Dave Jr

stevston89 wrote: »

The transition from your brow to eyelid is just wrong. That area is the eyelid tucking under the brow. Currently you have it as a crease when in reality it is a fold. I agree with Yuri the eye area in general is a bit flat, but I also think your eyes are to wide and still a bit large. Take a look at the distance between the upper edge of her eye and the fold where the brow meets the eyelid. You should have the upper eyelid getting small because the brow overlaps it. Currently the upper eyelid is just the same size all the way across. Also the cheekbone should be more prominent. Here are a few reference images to help out.

Wow,

thanks for the feedback; I see exactly what your getting at; and I'll work on it accordingly

arcitecht

Its easy to oversize eyeballs, so I try to use the rule of "make them as big as I think they should be, then a bit smaller". Unless its a stylized character with specifically oversized eyes, chances are you won't make them too small.

Also, to help achieve a nice clean eyelid crease, a tip I saw from Frank Tzeng in a video on ZBC is to ctrl-shift select only the eye region, go to the Display subpallette and click "double" (to show backfaces), then pull the crease of the eyes from behind the model. Its so simple and timesaving, I wish I'd thought of it myself lol.

Dave Jr

Ok Latest update; Havent had too much time this weekend. But I managed to block in some base hair. I've also corrected the eyes, eye sockets and the folds. Again, please critique I'd like to perfect this face before I move onto clothes

Cheers

Dave Jr

Think I might have to rework the hair. Might use polyplanes as previously suggested. Anyone have any tips or advice on how to rework this kind of hair?

Dave Jr

Shameful Bump

Makkon

Bam!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLoL19_0nDQ&quot;]Zbrush Quick Tip- Curve Strap Snap Hair - YouTube[/ame]

Also, this might help on your eyes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA4QziHEk8E&quot;]Zbrush Quick Tip- Easy Eyes - YouTube[/ame]

Dave Jr

You have no idea how effect that bam was....

Would you suggest overlaying the curve strap hair or redoing the hair using that method instead?

THANK YOU!

Makkon

I'd just redo it, your second try will always be better than your first.

Also, I would put the Mask by Polygroups (in automasking under brush) on your main UI so you can have easy access to it. You'll use it OFTEN with working with hair.
Lay down the curves, and then use the move tool to get the form you want. If you don't like how it's sticking to the neck, you could always block in the general shape of it with a sphere or cylinder and then lay the hair curves over that.