Correct me if I'm wrong, but the industry as a whole is doing well, it's the big corporations that are tanking. Indie groups are popping up everywhere and doing well.
yeah but indie studios popping up everywhere isn't a sign of things going well. I know a lot of people who started indie studios to get into the mobile space only to realize you have to be one of the top 3 games to make any money.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the industry as a whole is doing well, it's the big corporations that are tanking. Indie groups are popping up everywhere and doing well.
I'm under the impression that the vast majority of Indie groups do not do well at all, financially. I think a lot of people 'go Indie' when they get laid off and think that they may not be able to get another industry job any time soon. Then they fail to make any real money as an Indie, and things are pretty sucky for them.
I think overall the industry is doing terrible right now. Hopefully the new generation of consoles will get consumers more interested in games again, or the industry will find some other way to rationalize spending more money on development again. Currently the amount being spent on development is low, which results in lots of unemployed developers.
Turning tricks around the corner? I'm trying to get into shape just incase, cougars don't like hairy beer bellies last I checked
There's always Barber College. :poly142:
I haven't been in this industry for very long; I wonder if this is just a natural shift that happens when the new consoles get announced? For example, companies downsize and go into R&D mode to figure out their best plan of attack.
I imagine with PC hardware sales dwindling and the shift over to tablets and phones, that has a big impact as well.
I'm just worried that we might be in for a bad time, similar to what happened in the 80's when everybody tried to make a game for the Atari systems and too much shovelware was on the market causing a bloat of bad software thus turning consumers away. Also, how can anybody make money when your game gets lost in an endless sea of free games/apps.
It's really shitty when it happens to you but as far as gaming hubs go, Montreal isn't too shabby and hopefully everyone gets the fairly generous EA severance package. If they offer the class to re-acclimate yourself to the job market, it costs EA about $2,000 per person so you can get some satisfaction over sticking it to them and I felt it actually had some useful information.
I know it's no comfort to anyone that got laid off but the Gamasutra salary surveys have shown a downward trend in layoffs over the years:
"Layoffs continue to trend slightly downward. 12% of respondents were laid off at some time in 2012, which is 1% lower than 2011's rate and 2% lower than 2010's rate. Overall, we've seen a 7% decrease in layoffs over the last three years."
EA are just evolving into "one button" game play, can't wait for that. Press "q" and the engine will play the game for you, so you can sit back with your popcorn and enjoy the cut scenes and dramatic almost the end of our hero part 12 sound track.
In fact the whole planet wants a one button solution to everything, no work, no thinking just push the button :poly122:
Im trying to remain positive and chalk all of these up to growing pains, but its hard to see the silver lining in any of it. I know alot of start ups come from things like this, I wonder if there is anywhere documenting on those? I'd love to see new studio start up threads
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the industry as a whole is doing well, it's the big corporations that are tanking. Indie groups are popping up everywhere and doing well.
No one is making any money anymore. Console and PC sales are continuing to drop quarter after quarter. Studios are closing down left and right. Games in general or becoming super high risk for publishers to invest in with astronomical development and marketing cost, which is only going to increase with the introduction with the new consoles. The new price for next gen games is $70, that is a lot of money in todays economy. So I don't see it getting any better.
Even with all these studios letting people go or just closing down, I'd like to think that if I keep working on my shit and create an awesome portfolio that eventually I'll get a job in the games industry, but the word 'eventually' kind of scares me because I don't want it to be five years from now.
The next couple years will be interesting for this industry. I'm really excited and just as nervous.
yeah, don't sweat it, I still see people getting hired straight out of college. The 5 figure bonus days of the 90's are gone but it's still a viable career.
this just like back in '07. layoffs everywhere, also, it's the end of a console cycle... so that may have something to do with it. With companies figuring out what they want to do?
yea the "go indie" thing is pretty rediculous the way its thrown around here like a magical fix all bandaid. you guys realize how much money you need to actually do that........right? even if you are working out of your home the costs of rent/mortgage are going to be super painful when you have no income. pile on food, if you have kids all those expenses etc. I would think it pretty unfeasable to start your own little studio with anything less than say 150k to get you through the 1st year. which is why you need investors which itself is a huge undertaking and not something your average group of mid-senior level artist are familiar with doing.
I know a couple people that tried it and ended up 30-40g in debt, released a game for moblile and sold about 30 copies. super rough, an amazing acomplishment for sure actually releasing something which is a lot more than some startups do, but as a financial reality pretty bone crushing.
a lot of the time I think the people cheering for indie companies are people not in the game industry yet and are not fully aware of how complex and expensive game development is. or are hoping with more indie studios around they will be able to snag jr level jobs because indies can only affoard to pay a cheap salary. If I was ever to go indie......I would want a super tight team of super senior folks who know what they are doing efficiently.
It seems like before the publishers took over we had a bunch of studios that started out small and then built up slowly over time. Then the publishers rode a wave of reckless bank/investor lending, to change how the industry did business and that model is falling on hard times.
Mostly I think because they got taken to the cleaners, they bought studio names, buildings and IP but didn't lock up the talent. The talent would often leave and start up something new leaving an empty husk for the publishers to try and harvest. The end result was a lot of expensive overhead and not much going on other than franchise management and would wait until too late to seek out something new. The people who made those franchises moved on and once the capital markets dried up and their stock prices evaporated they can't afford to innovate.
It seems more like the industry is reverting back to normality? In a very painful way. Well it actually seems worse than normal actually, the whole try to make money off of .99 app sales is insane and not going to lead anywhere meaningful for the vast majority who try to scrape by in those limited market places.
yea it seems a bit cyclical. although I would expect it to be halfway through the next gen for the true leaders to emerge in this market in terms of small studios having a good success and getting up to medium/large size. and the proceeding to be bought by big publishers and itll happen all over again. Those are the kinda studios I would consider working at, somewhere that has released an awesome title (prefferably on consoles) and have secured financing to make a big budget AAA title. kinda like black tusk in vancouver (although they havent released anything yet, seems like MS is pumping money into them like crazy based on the talent there.) atleast witha studio like that if and when the layoffs come you will probably get a 10-30g (time to chill on a beach for a couple weeks!) severance package depending on how long you have been there.
with the super small studios you are lucky to get back pay for those mysterious perdiods where the money has run out and you keep working for 2 weeks based on promises that they just secured more money.......only to be laid off a week later with no severance and 3 weeks of pay owed lol.
I know a couple people that tried it and ended up 30-40g in debt, released a game for moblile and sold about 30 copies. super rough, an amazing acomplishment for sure actually releasing something which is a lot more than some startups do, but as a financial reality pretty bone crushing.
Sadly this exact thing has happened to a few friends who went this route as well. It is seriously rough, and you have to have a top game to make even a sliver of your money back. Your either part of the handful who make massive amounts of money or sell 100 copies and lose it all like everyone else. There is a giant gap in the mobile space.
I am assuming slowly but surely would be the way to think of the future by now right.
They should put up a warning or when hired get your plan B's and C's in order, you never know.
I'm under the impression that the vast majority of Indie groups do not do well at all, financially. I think a lot of people 'go Indie' when they get laid off and think that they may not be able to get another industry job any time soon. Then they fail to make any real money as an Indie, and things are pretty sucky for them.
Can I ask how you're coming to this conclusion?
EDIT:
This is why you don't sell to EA unless you hate your employees. They did this to Popcap last year, flushed Popcap Dublin down the shitter; the whole studio.
yes, going indie is a big risk - just replace "go indie" with "start your own business" and it will put things into perspective.
From the 2012 Game Dev salary survey:
"Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487."
so you do it because you love it and you've got money saved up or some other way to support yourself.
yes, going indie is a big risk - just replace "go indie" with "start your own business" and it will put things into perspective.
From the 2012 Game Dev salary survey:
"Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487."
so you do it because you love it and you've got money saved up or some other way to support yourself.
:P yeah, guess I should have mentioned it's the average so the small handful of indie superstars probably skew the results.
well, i also believe that as an owner, I believe in paying my employees more than me since my rewards are further down the line and I'd rather use my salary for more work.
how about high paying exec and management take lower more realistic salaries since they are the once who have KILLED EA and most the games/series they have bought. God i hate this economy/capitalist idea sometimes. Guys who sit at the top are almost untouchable
how about high paying exec and management take lower more realistic salaries since they are the once who have KILLED EA and most the games/series they have bought. God i hate this economy/capitalist idea sometimes. Guys who sit at the top are almost untouchable
How much of a % in dev costs pays these morons at the top? EA, and most companies, need to start cutting at the top. But that is a pipe dream.
how about high paying exec and management take lower more realistic salaries since they are the once who have KILLED EA and most the games/series they have bought. God i hate this economy/capitalist idea sometimes. Guys who sit at the top are almost untouchable
That's corporatism. Not capitalism. We currently don't have a free market at all... It's controlled by a bunch of greedy assholes who have ties in the government who make laws that benefit them.
I completely agree with you though. It's a pain in the ass and I hate to see our industry suffer from these suits who come in and rip the soul right out of our development teams. All to make a few extra bucks, they were still making money but they just wanted more. Thats the trouble, they're willing to skrew hundreds of people over to get a few % more that they can report to the stockholders. It's a twisted system
booo, down with the system. Lets all go smoke weed, sing songs with a guitar and be productive idea givers of a better world. Just so long as we rant but sit back. (joking,..meanly, but joking )
yeah this EA thing is same old EA. those that make others rich suffer. The cycle will repeat. the process will continue. If you want to affect change, work for Independent devs.
this is why i explain to my friends you gotta step on some heads on your way to the top and kinda just abandon your ethics if you want to make bank. I cant wait to put my bootheel on my roomates head if we are both working here at ubi on my upwards climb. no mercy. no surrender. cash rules everything around me.
lol thats another terribly twisted system Originally (in so much as I have researched it...) I believe the stock market was something closer to what kick starter is today.
this is why i explain to my friends you gotta step on some heads on your way to the top and kinda just abandon your ethics if you want to make bank. I cant wait to put my bootheel on my roomates head if we are both working here at ubi on my upwards climb. no mercy. no surrender. cash rules everything around me.
Explain to me how fucking over their fellow man would have saved the hundreds spending today in their pyjamas.
Replies
Goodluck to those laid off devs.
I'm under the impression that the vast majority of Indie groups do not do well at all, financially. I think a lot of people 'go Indie' when they get laid off and think that they may not be able to get another industry job any time soon. Then they fail to make any real money as an Indie, and things are pretty sucky for them.
I think overall the industry is doing terrible right now. Hopefully the new generation of consoles will get consumers more interested in games again, or the industry will find some other way to rationalize spending more money on development again. Currently the amount being spent on development is low, which results in lots of unemployed developers.
There's always Barber College. :poly142:
I haven't been in this industry for very long; I wonder if this is just a natural shift that happens when the new consoles get announced? For example, companies downsize and go into R&D mode to figure out their best plan of attack.
I imagine with PC hardware sales dwindling and the shift over to tablets and phones, that has a big impact as well.
I'm just worried that we might be in for a bad time, similar to what happened in the 80's when everybody tried to make a game for the Atari systems and too much shovelware was on the market causing a bloat of bad software thus turning consumers away. Also, how can anybody make money when your game gets lost in an endless sea of free games/apps.
I know it's no comfort to anyone that got laid off but the Gamasutra salary surveys have shown a downward trend in layoffs over the years:
"Layoffs continue to trend slightly downward. 12% of respondents were laid off at some time in 2012, which is 1% lower than 2011's rate and 2% lower than 2010's rate. Overall, we've seen a 7% decrease in layoffs over the last three years."
In fact the whole planet wants a one button solution to everything, no work, no thinking just push the button :poly122:
[ame="
Don't hold back :thumbup:
Im trying to remain positive and chalk all of these up to growing pains, but its hard to see the silver lining in any of it. I know alot of start ups come from things like this, I wonder if there is anywhere documenting on those? I'd love to see new studio start up threads
No one is making any money anymore. Console and PC sales are continuing to drop quarter after quarter. Studios are closing down left and right. Games in general or becoming super high risk for publishers to invest in with astronomical development and marketing cost, which is only going to increase with the introduction with the new consoles. The new price for next gen games is $70, that is a lot of money in todays economy. So I don't see it getting any better.
The next couple years will be interesting for this industry. I'm really excited and just as nervous.
good luck to everyone affected.
I know a couple people that tried it and ended up 30-40g in debt, released a game for moblile and sold about 30 copies. super rough, an amazing acomplishment for sure actually releasing something which is a lot more than some startups do, but as a financial reality pretty bone crushing.
a lot of the time I think the people cheering for indie companies are people not in the game industry yet and are not fully aware of how complex and expensive game development is. or are hoping with more indie studios around they will be able to snag jr level jobs because indies can only affoard to pay a cheap salary. If I was ever to go indie......I would want a super tight team of super senior folks who know what they are doing efficiently.
Mostly I think because they got taken to the cleaners, they bought studio names, buildings and IP but didn't lock up the talent. The talent would often leave and start up something new leaving an empty husk for the publishers to try and harvest. The end result was a lot of expensive overhead and not much going on other than franchise management and would wait until too late to seek out something new. The people who made those franchises moved on and once the capital markets dried up and their stock prices evaporated they can't afford to innovate.
It seems more like the industry is reverting back to normality? In a very painful way. Well it actually seems worse than normal actually, the whole try to make money off of .99 app sales is insane and not going to lead anywhere meaningful for the vast majority who try to scrape by in those limited market places.
with the super small studios you are lucky to get back pay for those mysterious perdiods where the money has run out and you keep working for 2 weeks based on promises that they just secured more money.......only to be laid off a week later with no severance and 3 weeks of pay owed lol.
Sadly this exact thing has happened to a few friends who went this route as well. It is seriously rough, and you have to have a top game to make even a sliver of your money back. Your either part of the handful who make massive amounts of money or sell 100 copies and lose it all like everyone else. There is a giant gap in the mobile space.
I am assuming slowly but surely would be the way to think of the future by now right.
They should put up a warning or when hired get your plan B's and C's in order, you never know.
http://www.bungie.net/en-us/AboutUs#!page=careers
Best of luck
Can I ask how you're coming to this conclusion?
EDIT:
This is why you don't sell to EA unless you hate your employees. They did this to Popcap last year, flushed Popcap Dublin down the shitter; the whole studio.
From the 2012 Game Dev salary survey:
"Despite the fact that indie devs are receiving more attention than ever before, the average indie still isn't very well-compensated; individual indie developers averaged $23,130 (down $420 from 2011), and members of indie teams averaged $19,487."
so you do it because you love it and you've got money saved up or some other way to support yourself.
daaaaaammmmmmmmnnnnnnnn
I wish I made 19k a year. :c
:P yeah, guess I should have mentioned it's the average so the small handful of indie superstars probably skew the results.
well, i also believe that as an owner, I believe in paying my employees more than me since my rewards are further down the line and I'd rather use my salary for more work.
How much of a % in dev costs pays these morons at the top? EA, and most companies, need to start cutting at the top. But that is a pipe dream.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/15/news/economy/ceo-pay-worker/index.html
CEO's earn on average 354 times more than the typical worker.
but, but... it supposed to trickle down....
That's corporatism. Not capitalism. We currently don't have a free market at all... It's controlled by a bunch of greedy assholes who have ties in the government who make laws that benefit them.
I completely agree with you though. It's a pain in the ass and I hate to see our industry suffer from these suits who come in and rip the soul right out of our development teams. All to make a few extra bucks, they were still making money but they just wanted more. Thats the trouble, they're willing to skrew hundreds of people over to get a few % more that they can report to the stockholders. It's a twisted system
yeah this EA thing is same old EA. those that make others rich suffer. The cycle will repeat. the process will continue. If you want to affect change, work for Independent devs.
And don't buy stock.
lol thats another terribly twisted system
Google any year from the past 10 years, with "EA Layoffs".
Explain to me how fucking over their fellow man would have saved the hundreds spending today in their pyjamas.
yup. Theres something seriously wrong with the way people do business if stepping on peoples toes is the way to get things done.