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3d apps in the games industry

Hi, I'm Alec, I'm a "youngen" (14) and I'd like to delve into game development art careers, currently I'm using Blender, I did use maya for a while but with my new computer a whole bunch of crap came around and I came back to blender, I recently discovered lightwave, it's academic license seemed like good value, my only worries are:

- Is lightwave similar to the "big three" (maya,3ds MAX, softimage)
- If I know the core interface of autodesk apps and modeling techniques, buying all the software out there isn't required
- Are there big differences when it comes to asset pipelines in apps (from autodesk to cinema 4d,blender, modo and lightwave)

- Are there any similar "academic" (licenses for non commercial use(not the crappy PLE's)) bundles for under 500 bucks for apps like maya,modo etc.

Cheers for any replies.

PS i have already worked inside a few engines (rounding up all experience I can get for some kind of advantage when it comes to a job :P )

Replies

  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    modo educational price is very good http://www.luxology.com/store/store_education.aspx but only seems to last one year.

    and 3dstudiomax and maya etc do have some student versions I think...found this through the autodesk site

    http://www.studica.com/Autodesk_Classroom/
  • e-freak
    afaik XSI has some very good and cheap student versions and it's one of the major players nowadays afaict.
  • Mark Dygert
    Hi Alec,

    Welcome to polycount =)
    - Is lightwave similar to the "big three" (maya,3ds MAX, softimage)
    Bones are still bones, verts and faces attach to them and UV coordinates are created and textures are made. That's about as much as they share. How you interact with all that seems different enough to cause some pretty big growing pains when switching.
    - If I know the core interface of autodesk apps and modeling techniques, buying all the software out there isn't required
    They're still separate products with their own teams not really working on a unified interface. I think learning 3 apps all at once is going to be maddening If you're going to learn them all I would focus on one app to start. Then get your feet wet in the others so transitioning isn't so tough later.

    When you get to that point, try to approach it as something new instead of a transition. A lot of people stumble because they get caught up trying to force an app to work like the previous. Gotta let that baggage go.

    Max and Maya are pretty much the workhorses of the industry right now. Switching back and forth is a bit of a headache but its probably the easiest jump in software.
    - Are there big differences when it comes to asset pipelines in apps (from autodesk to cinema 4d,blender, modo and lightwave)
    The asset pipeline varies from studio to studio knowing the full pipeline inside and out isn't required but being familiar with the basic flow (Modeling > Materials > Rigging > Animation > Export) process is pretty much required, which it sounds like you're already well on your way to being farmiliar with. As you move deeper into the pipeline things tend to be more ridged.

    - Modeling/materials props & character meshes: Its easiest to add new and strange apps here. But normally requires one main app for export.
    - Rigging and animation might be locked down to one or two specific apps.
    - Lighting and level layout will be very engine specific and handled in a pretty regimented way.
    - Are there any similar "academic" (licenses for non commercial use(not the crappy PLE's)) bundles for under 500 bucks for apps like maya,modo etc.
    I first cut my teeth on horrible little app called Milkshape 3D, then quickly jumped to MayaPLE, was given a 1 year lic for Maya (company was downsizing I worked in tech support). Then jumped to Gmax and finally bought a used copy of 3dsmax when I knew this was what I wanted to do.

    I personally don't see whats wrong with the PLE and free versions, they have a few things stripped out but none of that is nesesary to learn the interface and workflow, all that is intact.

    MayaPLE, had an annoying watermark across the screen, I hear they've taken it out but enabled it some way form somethings. That watermark drove me nuts. But I learned the interface around it and that helped quite a bit. I didn't find as much free training for Maya but the help files where, helpful...

    Gmax, It's 3dsmax4 without rendering. Which is pretty old BUT the core functionality hasn't changed that much, mostly just minor improvements the basic workflow and modifier system is still the same. It also comes with a bunch of tutorials that are very helpful, and there are a bunch of old 3dsmax tutorials out there floating around which most applied right to Gmax.

    So I recommend trying to figure out which discipline fits you the best and work on whichever is going to give you the strongest chance at landing a job. If its modeling probably 3dsmax, if its rigging and animation probably Maya.

    Good luck!

    Oh PS: ART ART ART, I can't stress enough how important a traditional background in art is when applying for artist positions.

    If you get caught up in technical learning for a few years and let your art slide its going to hurt. Knowing a 3d app inside and out might land you a job some place but not as well as knowing what makes for good art. A place might take a gamble on a great artist who has weak 3d app knowledge but they probably won't take a gamble on an artist with high 3d app knowledge and hardly any artist ability. Unless you're going for a technical artist position which is a whole different can of worms.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 10
    Hey alec!

    Agreed with what vig says.

    Just want to put in that there are tons of people with the 3d skills, few with the core traditional art skills, so boy if you wanna get real good focus on the traditional first :D. You are 14, amazing things will happen if you keep at it.
  • Richard Kain
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    Richard Kain polycounter lvl 18
    Personally, I wouldn't invest in a major commercial application at your age. It isn't really necessary, especially if you aren't producing commercial work, and don't expect to any time soon. I think 3D Max discontinued its "learning" version. But I'm pretty sure Maya and SoftImage both still have learning editions that you can dapple in without laying down any hard-earned cash.

    That's the best route to take if you are just wanting to wrap your head around some commercial software. Believe me, these commercial 3D apps have so many features, it will take you a long time just to come to grips with what is in the learning edtions. And as far as building your portfolio goes, Blender will likely have you covered.

    The only thing that you might consider acquiring is some sculpting software. The various options for this are cheaper, so it shouldn't be quite as hefty of an expense. Silo 3D is a good low-cost option for this. Blender has sculpting as well, but you probably won't be able to get as much detail using it without a really beefy machine.

    And one more vote for traditional art skills. Practicing your sketching, painting, and critical observation are even more important than learning software. The tools you have are worthless unless you actually have something interesting to make with them.

    Oh, and your language skills seem to be pretty solid for a 14-year-old. Always encouraging to see someone who takes a bit of pride in their writing for a change.
  • Marnik
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    Marnik polycounter lvl 8
    Hey, welcome to the boards. First things first, you sound very professional for a 14 year old, which is rather impressive. Now that that's out of the way, I'd say go with the 30 day trial and learn what you can with that, but you should definitely put major amounts of time into traditional art skills. That's one thing I wish I did more when I was younger, especially now that I'm a game art student with sub-par artistic skills >_<

    Good luck and stick with it!
  • Marnik
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    Marnik polycounter lvl 8
    Wait a sec... You said "Youngen"... You from Pittsburgh by any chance?
  • Ben Apuna
    Yeah develop your core art skills like drawing and painting. It's something I really wish that I could go back in time and do over again.

    What first attracted me to 3d art was that it was fairly easy to make some nice realistic renders without having to draw anything. However as the years went by and I got better with various 3d apps I always regretted not being able to draw well.

    Now I've reached a point where I can probably accomplish any modeling task in 3d, but coming up with a great concept or idea is what holds me back. This is where being able to draw well and iterate on your ideas before even going to 3d really helps. Even once you start making something in 3d sound artistic decision making will make the difference between a good 3d asset and a great one.

    So in other words draw, draw, and draw more. I'd go so far to say that every hour you spend drawing will probably be more valuable than an entire day spent learning 3d.

    I knew a guy in college he came in with no 3d experience whatsoever but he had amazing drawing skills. Three months of learning Maya and he was modeling more interesting stuff than everyone else in the entire program. Nine months after that he landed a job in the game industry, not only that but his starting salary was really high for someone with no industry experience.
  • claydough
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    claydough polycounter lvl 10
    Maya ple has been discontinued :(
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    so has gMax
    I assume autdesk rather thinks that students, school pupils and hobbyists are having either the money, their school has or use another way of getting it anyway.

    Ben Apuna wrote:
    but coming up with a great concept or idea is what holds me back..
    art/design university or college is the best way to learn that from my experience. At least a place where you can freely discuss your work and others and exchange opinions. I learned a lot about all the concept stuff (composition, colors, type, contrast, psychology, ...) here at the university, way more actually compared to prior schools or tutorials combined.
    So in other words draw, draw, and draw more. I'd go so far to say that every hour you spend drawing will probably be more valuable than an entire day spent learning 3d.
    what really matters is that you are interested in drawing, not just draw because you think you have to.
    For that try to research on other good illustration artists, the topic you are drawing (not just the shape but also backgrounds). The more you read about things (or see) the more you gain knowledge and extend your horizon and interest.

    Generally really good 3d artists have a really broad interest in things that do not always necessarily have to do with drawing or sculpting stuff. Its the bigger horizon (the things they have seen or read about exchanged with others) that makes the difference to lets say someone who is rather uninspired and copies the style and work of others just worse.


    If you still want to pay for a 3d software I can recommend as well Silo. Its a top notch sub-div modeling application with a little touch of Sculpting that available for very little money. It might be a very good tool to learn mastering what really matters at first.
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    I dotn see why age should be a factor at art. I've been doing 3d art since I was 11, I'm 14 now. I've been using 3ds max from the start and I have seen 3ds max be used more in the industry then maya. When I went to LA film school they had personal contracts with autodesk and chose to order copies of 3ds max as there first priority over maya. But they seem to use Maya more in the animation for games and film industry more. And use 3ds max for modeling and rendering. Depending on what industry you plan focusing your mind on, pick an app. I hear Silo is emergeing from the 3ds max and maya crowd.

    Ps. This was the first 3d thing I made when I was 11. That old deviantart was underage banned. Age is not a factor in art.
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    errr please don't post ages and gender, that destroys the illusion I have from you guys :D
  • Alec3d
    I am from sydney, Australia - Since my dad is a mac reseller I only work with macs but I do some stuff in bootcamp. If you guys would like to see a game I made almost two years ago - back when I was getting the hang of things you can find it here:

    http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=20635&sid=2872721c1b935d6ccbe7b51e609f7392

    Also, I'm currently doing elective arts at my highschool and I have a deviant ( alec3d.deviantart.com )

    Thanks for all the replies!
  • Alec3d
    ahh yeah I do sketch, paint and stuff, I'm really into concept art (been frothing over some of the sketchbooks on this site) and game engines but 3d is my favourite - games take excruciating amounts of code which I learnt myself (javascript in unity3d engine if your wondering :D )
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    wow keep that up
    back then when I was at that age I played just with the Unreal Editor that came with the first Unreal Game and some very poor 3dsmax 2.5 stuff. But it paved the way I want now getting more and more into 3d game development.
  • Alec3d
    Cheers, I'm now evaluating Silo, seems very robust and so far is a very nice, clean modeler - I've downloaded some tutorials (character modeling) just to get my rhythm with the app before I try a speed character model tomorrow night :D .

    I'll be updating my digital sketchbook of course!
    http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=63468

    I'm very open to crits or suggestions!
  • EmAr
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    EmAr polycounter lvl 18
    Silo is a good choice ;) In addition, you may consider learning ZBrush/Mudbox or maybe 3D Coat for high poly sculpting if you have access to a tablet.
  • dehebo
    as far as the supposed 'big 3' go you can get the Softimage non-commerical mod tool for free...
    http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/
    not tried it, but looks like it has the full modeling/anim of the app. might be worth a look.
  • dehebo
    it does have dreaded watermarks though ;p
  • Alec3d
    I did note on softimage but I'd rather stick to a pc and mac solution and silo is really providing right now :)
  • Mark Dygert
    Oh bawls I forgot Silo, I love that lil app. Good choice.
  • Richard Kain
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    Richard Kain polycounter lvl 18
    Silo doesn't have the expanded features that most major 3D packages have. (rigging, animating, etc...) It is a pure modelling program, designed specifically for a streamlined and optimized modeling workflow. The downside is that you are constrained on what you can do with it. But that's kind of the upside as well.

    Silo 3D is considerably more focused than the bigger commercial packages. It doesn't overwhelm you with an enormous feature set, or labyrinthine menus to access all of those features. And all of the features it does have are very focused and user-friendly. It also does pretty well as "companion" software. A lot of people who use Silo like to use it in conjunction with another program. They will do their modeling and sculpting in Silo, and then just move the model over to the other software package for rigging, animating, and rendering. Silo 3D + Blender is a pretty good combination for the budget-conscious 3D artist.

    Naturally, Silo's sub-$200 price point is considerably more reasonable than a lot of other apps, even ones with comparable feature sets. The fact that its cross-compatible on Macs and PCs doesn't hurt either.

    If you are interested in some more experimental modeling/sculpting, 3D Coat has been incorporating Voxel sculpting tools. A bit different to work with, but very interesting.
  • SHEPEIRO
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    SHEPEIRO polycounter lvl 17
    draw loads of concepts, buy a wacom, make some low poly art and textures (DS style) get all that down, befor you jump into high poly modelling and sculpting
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    yep, you may want to spend your money on a wacom bamboo, they're fairly cheap. but it'll do the job perfectly, makes painting in photoshop and sculpting so much easier and fun ;)
    my advice would be, try everything out. I'm sure right now theres dozens of things that make you think "wow, that's cool. i wanna know how to do this!".
    don't try to focus on learning one thing asap. you can still do this when you decided on a career. take the long road, enjoy the journey ;)
  • Alec3d
    I'm actually organising a bamboo fun A5 (my parents insisted that if I wanted to get a tablet that I should buy a bigger one than A6) - I do have photoshop cs and I have done a sculpture or two in blender as well as all animations in my games (linked before)
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    A5 is a perfect size, personally I find A4 or lager just to big. I have a wacom A5 Intuos² myself now already 5+ years and it is still working superb.
    But I heard that the bamboo series is pretty good for its price so that might be indeed a very good pick up for you.
  • Alec3d
    OK, silo is the one, great workflow, easy modeling (check my sketchbook for my first try!). It's just very, very good.

    As for the tablet I'll probably be picking it up around next week!
  • elte
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    elte polycounter lvl 18
    I would probably suggest Modo for new users. The resource/learning materials seems to cover most of the basic/beginner topic, plus it has some features like painting/ rendering which silo lacks of. And the price makes sense compared to giant app like maya/max.

    But it's a good thing that you picked up silo, which is cheaper and also one of my fav modeling app, although I heard that the development slows down and the apps is not very stable.

    You might also check out zbrush/mudbox/3dcoat. From your sketchbook I saw you're learning the old fashion way, box/strip modeling...which is good as fundamental, but you might also be interested in newer modeling workflow like hi res sculpting and retopologizing.
  • Joe
    SHEPEIRO wrote: »
    draw loads of concepts, buy a wacom, make some low poly art and textures (DS style) get all that down, befor you jump into high poly modelling and sculpting

    1+
  • Alec3d
    Yeah I know about Zbrush and mudbox, what is retopologizing, sounds strange O.o
  • Alec3d
    Wow! I didn't know that 3d coat was for mac as well, I can't wait to give it a go!
  • Richard Kain
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    Richard Kain polycounter lvl 18
    Retopology is the practice of building a low-poly in-game mesh around a high-poly sculpt. Retopology tools make it possible for basic low-poly elements like verticies, edges, and faces to "stick" to a high-poly sculpted mesh. Using this method it is possible to create a solid low-poly model based on the form and details of a high-poly model fairly quickly and efficiently. It is also a great way to insure that your normal-map baking will be accurate. (since the low-poly model is so closely related to the high-poly model)

    Most 3D packages now feature retopology tools. I believe Silo 3D's retopolgy tools are fairly easy to use. And I've used Blender's retopology myself.
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    retopo or retopology is simply modeling another model on your existing model. So that each time you create faces or move elements they snap on another object.

    The reason to remodel something might be because you need a cleaner flow in your topology (the flow of faces and edges), or you need less triangles or something else specific. In that you then often use the retopology workflow.

    In silo for example you can only retopo on frozen or locked objects. Once you have frozen your object and created another one you can activate the surface snapping (somewhere in the selection menu or so)
    here is a simple video showing the procedure:
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zozNWfxau_s[/ame]
  • Alec3d
    Ahh I see now, cool - I'm currently downloading 3d coat but its taking forever, must be the server :s .
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    Yo Alec3d, I gave the mac and maya a try and ended up selling my mac because of maya's buggy poor performance. Mostly to do with the context sensitive menus, I wouldn't recommend maya on the mac to anyone but who knows it could have been my video card?
  • renderhjs
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    renderhjs sublime tool
    I heard that modo performs excellent on the mac, and they even recently released a new version 4.0
    http://www.luxology.com/
    hopefully their next release will cover some more game development stuff (e.g pipeline, scripts, baking, export, retopology, ...)
  • Alec3d
    I'm going to go with my current silo - blender - unity workflow. It just works, and I absolutely love it, this is what I did in my first six hours with silo (possibly my greatest model yet, pretty good for a 14 year old) :

    2gx3crl.png

    10eijw4.png
  • ironbearxl
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    ironbearxl polycounter lvl 18
    renderhjs: The model doen't have to be locked/frozen to retopo in silo, but it helps to not accidentally select the surface below :p
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