Protoceratops revisited

merlyn · Apr 2008

My old protoceratops model. I decided to try and experiment with trying to keep the details I sculpt in Zbrush when I import my models into max (hopefully this will help my Woody Harrelson model in the long run). So far I am experimenting with what I can do with a cavity map. I might turn this into a final image eventually, plenty of tweaks to do, was thinking of adding a mouse to the image. As allways crits, comments, and suggestions are very welcome.

Jeremy Lindstrom · Apr 2008

Please do not take offense to this I don't mean to be rude but I'd close the mouth or put some foliage or something down there as it looks like he's might be coughing up a furball or something

I'd possibly tone down the cracks and crevices on the back too.. imo

Tumerboy · Apr 2008

His head seems extremely large for his frame/legs.

pangarang · Apr 2008

The five year old dinosaur geek kid in me is squealing with delight. I read the title and instantly knew what it was. I mean come on, the protoceratops isn't as well known as the tyrannosaurus or triceratops (both from the cretaceous, which makes so sense why they were in Jurassic Park :P ) MOVING ON!

But the 24 year old in me is going - no no, the bumpage is too high and too even, which takes down the believability down a notch. The bumps should be higher on the dinosaurs back, but becomes gradually smoother as it moves towards the belly.

And on its limbs, the way the bumps are so even and high, it looks like its got some kind of a rash. My pet budgie had mites in its skin once, which caused major flaking and crusty scabs, and irritation on its feet - scared me half to death, i thought my budgie was gonna die! - and this is kinda what it reminds me of.

In defense of the open mouth however, I imagine it would be smarter to model a mouth at an extreme (open/closed, smiling/frowning) so that in a sense, one of the blend shapes for vowels (or in this case, open or closed mouth) is already done.

Nice choice in dinosaur. I like muchly.

MoP · Apr 2008

While it's a pretty decent base for a model, I think you've probably gone into fine-detailing too early. You've got all the scales and plating, but there's no wrinkles or folds around the legs.

Check out this photo of Tully's Allosaurus sculpture WIP - notice that while the large forms (proportions, limbs etc) and the fine details (scales and spikes etc) are all defined, there is also "mid-level" detail sitting between these - folds around the legs, hints at muscle structure around the neck and body.

This is what you're missing in the model - mid-level detail. Stuff that goes on top of the overall proportions and volumes, but underneath the fine detail. This is what really helps to sell a creature as believable. Currently your model appears to have no muscle structure, and no fat/fascia which moves and folds as the creature moves its limbs.

I'd recommend going back into ZBrush, grabbing a bunch of reference (real live animals, lizards and crocodiles might help for this sort of anatomical reference, also check out James Gurney's Dinotopia books, they have awesome paintings of dinosaurs which look very believable), and then just work on the mid-level stuff before you worry about texturing it.

Hope that helps.
-MoP

Tully · Apr 2008

Good suggestions to be found here

I think the consensus is that you may have gone a bit too hastily and heavily into the scale-level detail. The general rule for anything is start with the biggest forms and work smaller and smaller. The proportions of your protoceratops appear to be really quite good, but he takes on a plastic-toy appearance because he doesn't show any indications of real anatomy. What's bone? What's muscle? What's fat? Where does the skin bunch and fold, where does it stretch? Where is his weight resting? These are the questions you need to ask -- know that the protoceratops had fleshy padding on the bottom of his feet (like all animals) which would spread just slightly when his weight is on it. Know that the back-turned pubic bone is firm compared to the surrounding soft belly, so it will jut out just a bit. That the muscules which drive the forelimbs are connected to the scapula, so the whole shoulder area is much more complex than you've shown here. Looking at other quadripeds (horses and elephants are particularly good for this, I find) is really helpful.

I did a quick paintover to show you a bit of what I mean. Hope it's helpful:

Somebody suggested putting grass there -- for SHAME. Grass hadn't evolved yet when these guys were around! </geek>

Mop's right that James Gurney's illustrations are fantastic reference, and one of his main characters is a protoceratops. Though I think not totally properly proportioned in the books for the sake of cuteness, it's great reference for skin-folds and general musculature.

Here's quite a nice skeletal drawing I found, btw. http://rainbow.ldgo.columbia.edu/courses/v1001/protoceratops.gif

merlyn · Apr 2008

Thank you all.

Dekard - lol, I am tempted to add a furball now that you pointed this out.

Tumerboy - I made this for the Natural History Museum In London so it was imperative that the model was proportionate, but I do agree that it does have a particularly big head.

pangarang - I was also a huge dinosaur enthusiast when I was a kid....great times. I have reduced the cavity shading in the epidermal, subdermal and diffuse colour map slots and it does look more real now IMO.

MoP - Undeniably you are right. Point noted. I will have a look for James Gurney's Dinotopia books. I wan't to know if you were my classmate at uni? Check out your PM's.

Tully - ..........Wow. You are an awesome artist, and what's more a huge help. I cannot tell you how greatful I am that you would put this amount of time and expertise into helping a fellow proffesional you don't even know, I will try and return the favour at some point. I was not going to improve the mid level details before like MoP suggested as I saw this character as a very quick piece and also as simply practice for using sss, cavity map and Mental Ray, plus I am not confident when working on models which I do not have suitable references for, but you have just made such a huge improvement to the look of my model with the drawover that I have to work on the sculpt again now and turn this model into something more impressive.

Protoceratops revisited

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