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Karl Franz Monument

interpolator
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praetus interpolator
So, after being told by a number of people at different companies that I need to work on some environments I figured it was time to get to it. I decided to jump on that Warhammer bandwagon and make me some stuff from their website.

Concept Art

The concept is of course made by the good folks at EA Mythic and I relied heavily on their references. Everything for textures is either reference photos or hand painted. I used concept art only as reference and not a cut and paste. All the swords, shields, emblems and such are recreated from scratch in photoshop.

let me know what needs work. I'm making the whole area this is in, but the rest still needs much more work before postworthy. I'm going old school for this piece so no normal, spec mapping. Just diffuse.

Monument001.jpg
Monument002.jpg
Monument003.jpg

Replies

  • Tiax
    looks nice , i always love warhammer art smile.gif
    only thing i can say , textures looks so flat. i know you're not using normal map but still you can get some depth to cracks at the wall etc. it's prob because of the light , long story shorter ; shadows& a little work with cracks etc on textures wink.gif
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/0607_CAt_44.jpg

    did you scale down these shields and paint over them in photoshop? the quality of the cross and shields and skull at top are so much more detailed than anything else on the texture, expecialy the stone work and tiles that are very blurry and only detailed with what looks like a noise filter. if you did infact paint these by hand with no tracing, then take the time to bring the rest of this piece up to the same quality, altho watch out for making it to contrasty,

    also if you did paint over the shields, theres no harm in doing that to learn, i used to trace comics when i was a kid to learn how to draw. but make sure that anytime you do that it is just to learn. and don't forget and claim the work as orriginal.

    and if by some chance someone did just slap some concept art on a texture and touch it up a bit with paint. that is a big no no, and the only person the offender would be cheating is himself.

    Keep practicing.
  • cholden
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    cholden polycounter lvl 18

    Colors are good, shields, iron cross, skulls are good. Beyond that, everything looks way too digital.

    By that I mean, all the straight black lines, straight modeled edges. To be honest, the shields, cross and top skull appear to be painted by a different person. Probably because you were able to find better reference wink.gif
    http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/0607_CAt_44.jpg

    <Edit>
    I was still writing that when Rhinokey pointed out the same thing, but I completely agree, the quality difference is just too appearent. If you could paint a shield that well, you wouldn't have crapped out bricks like that. Anyway, keep practicing.
    </end edit>

    That said, you really need to repain all the other textures in the same style. Also, watch your pixel depth. Everthing should be even, or you end up with a lot of weird looking stuff like the brick arch around the circular design (which is clearly inner bevel).

    The model is too low detail, model in everything, except those tiny windows. Those should be texture.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    i don't like the tiled block textures, firstly because they would be more dirty at the bottom than the top (water residue helps accelerate the aging/corrosion/growing of moss etc) and so it should be the other way round. and secondly because you wouldn't have each level of blocks with a brand new start and finish of aging, but it would look cleaner at the top of the tower and dirtier at the bottom.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Wow, I didn't expect to get many responses while at work. That's nice to come home to. Alright here we go.

    PAINTOVER FUN!
    Monument004.jpg

    Everything in the red squares is a tileable texture from photo reference. Basically just touched up and made to tile and going to be fixed so it matches the rest.

    Here are the files if people want to see.
    Concrete Block
    Shingles
    Concrete Borders

    These are all actual size.

    Also the headpiece so people can see the setup.
    HeadPiece.jpg

    Tiax- Good advice. I know I need to add more of that stuff but I really wanted to get some shots on the board to show what I had so far.

    Rhinokey- All color and detailing in the textures is painted by me. The only thing I did regarding the concepts was trace the outline of the shield and sword with the pen tool so I could get the proportions right. Everything else is all me. cool.gif Plus I know it is not cool to claim someone elses work as my own and would never do that. It's hard enough trying to get a job in the industry, I don't need to curse my name in the process. smile.gif

    CHolden - Cool to know that I can model in most the other details. I was curious about what the poly density was of environments in game and that helps a bit. I'll have to edit the crap out of it and try to make it all spiffy like. Also those pictures on site of the shield and sword were life savers. I had those up in PS for constant reference while painting which is why I was able to get such good detail.

    Pardon me for asking but what exactly do you mean by pixel depth? Just photoshop filters around the inner sun logo or something else?

    almighty_gir - I take it you mean the block on the pillars right? You do bring up a very good point though. I'll need to mess with some texturing and take a walk around town. God knows there's enough reference in Fremont and the surrounding area.
  • cholden
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    cholden polycounter lvl 18
    Tracing is copying just done by hand. There's nothing wrong with using it as a reference and painting your own interpretation. We can tell the difference between the two, and if you're going to do our art you had better do it right. Otherwise, you're just blowing your chance.

    You can go a little crazy with your polygons as long as the mesh still looks good. It's easier to model something too high polygon and reduce.

    Since picture of the sword and shield were so helpful, why don't up open up some other screenshots of our bricks and roof tiles? Those other three textures you posted (blocks and shingles) are a blurry mess (don't smudge, just paint the lines you need and move on). Try painting those textures as larger tiles to so there is some variation from brick to brick.

    Pixel Depth (texel ratio) refers to all the pixels on your model being about the same size. If you box map your entire model at 256, everything will be even (minus some possible cleanup). Do that, THEN UV your model without too much UV scaling. That way, when you walk up to it in game, everything is about the same level of detail.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    CHolden -Awesome. Thanks for explaining the pixel depth as well as the advice on texture sizes. I have to admit that using tileable textures is a new concept to me so I was unsure on what limits were imposed.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Tracing is copying just done by hand. There's nothing wrong with using it as a reference and painting your own interpretation. We can tell the difference between the two, and if you're going to do our art you had better do it right. Otherwise, you're just blowing your chance.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All I traced was the outline of shield and sword, none of the actual detailing inside. Is something that simple a no-no or was it alright? I figure that when most people model/draw they use reference but I made a point to not even use the color picker tool to try and improve my painting skills. Internet being what it is I wasn't sure on your tone but I certainly don't want to blow my chance. Warhammer seems like a pretty sweet game to work on.
  • SubPablo
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    SubPablo polycounter lvl 17
    Try to follow the concept as much as possible. That's not a greyscale image, it's a color representative of the materials. This is a carved stone monument with all decorative details being carved from the stone itself. That means no blue shingles, no metal emellishments etc. For more material ref, google "mausoleum".
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Good to know SubPablo. So, with all the details being carved into the stone I take it the shield, sword, and cross are also carved out and not hanging there? Looks like I'll be retexturing more than I thought.

    ugh, off to work for the night. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight when I get home to work on this.
  • Cubik
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    Cubik polycounter lvl 18
    Do you want it to look like the concept? These crits are both about getting your version better and more like the concept.
    Think about your texture-sizes, you really need to split the mesh more effeciantly so that you can re-use the same stoneslab texture in several places:

    mythiccrit.jpg

    Cut the mesh into these pieces and then flip the texture around a bit on the other sides. One thing you can do is to do one stoneslab unique to get some variation

    Remove the unnecessary tris you have spent on the tiny windowarches.
    Match the top roof's texture closer to the concept.
    Match the look of the spires.
    Tone down the shields and skulls or paint the entire model in the same style. As it is right now, the shields really clash with the base building.

    Can't really say much until you have gotten further.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    So now knowing that I can model more of the detail into this guy, I've been working on the modeling a bit more. Here we go.

    Monument005.jpg

    Monument006.jpg

    So I'm going for all the major details in this and then I'll be able to texture and copy things around to fill out the appearance more. Also I'll be roughing it up a bit so the angles aren't straight lines everywhere, but I want to get some basic UVs and textures set first. Blue wires are instanced geometry for now, just so I can see where everything fits for the time being.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    why so many wasted polys on shield ? and ornaments ?
  • cholden
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    cholden polycounter lvl 18
    Based on what I see so far, you are taking EXACTLY the wrong approach to modeling in all the details. Model in everything that affects the profile or silhouette. The smaller, inset details should be flat (unless large enough and/or at player level), and I'd model those shields as alpha planes.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Alright, looks like I'll have some major clean-up when I get home from work tonight. I guess I am a little confused as to what to model in. So, shield can be alpha mapped and the minor details need to go away. Is there anything else that is pretty wrong with this or would that be it?
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    pretty much any polygon that doesn contribute for the silhouette needs to go , id recomend applying a black 100% difuse to see the silhouete, what doesnt contribute is off smile.gif
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    also model the shields that are on the concept and not just the ones with easy to find textures to trace.

    i'd half model the reaper statue, at least the mass of the shape, not the arm bones and fingers, and look at the concept the shape of the cowl and skull. also the skull in the top roof is more stylized, If you are going to model something from a concept your goal should be to match it as good as you posibly can
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    Do a Google and Flickr search for reference, specifically bas-relief (for the shields and skulls) and maybe tombs, monuments, etc...
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Took out all fine details and tried to pay attention to Silhouette. Also, I redid the reaper statue since it didn't match quite right. Gonna go closer to concept and make the arms and shields alpha mapped. So, is this looking better or worse?

    Also, on that note; I really appreciate the help I'm getting from everyone here. It's really cool to be hearing from people that are over at EA Mythic as well. Thanks again and tell me what needs fixed on this guy.

    Monument007.jpg

    Monument008.jpg
  • SubPablo
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    SubPablo polycounter lvl 17
    This is looking loads better. The reaper statues make a huge difference. -a few nitpicks:
    *the whole thing looks generally a little too tall based on the concept. Squashing it down a bit will add some thickness back into it.
    *The base should be a little wider on the sides. It's not quite square, but there's more room in front of the side reapers in the concept.
    *The reapers are more flush with the walls in the concept. I'd try to nonuniform scale them back into the wall for more of a bas relief feel.
    *the dormers on the roof section look a little wide, and the tower cones on the roof look a little too fat for their bases. -I'd thin those up a bit, and thicken the bases.
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Thread-surrection! Worked on textures quite a bit as well as some critiques from SubPable. I hope this makes it better than what it was before. Compared to earlier thread pictures I think this is vastly improved. Although, I think I need to tone down the red perhaps? Let me know.

    Finally got myself a new computer since the last one would randomly crash and reset on me. Looking forward to being able to finish this thing.

    Monument009.jpg

    Monument010.jpg
  • conte
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    conte polycounter lvl 18
    100x better!
    grats, that's very cool.
  • Xeto
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    Xeto polycounter lvl 17
    Well damn my reply is a bit late as you changed the roof texture but hey this may help any way with this one too...

    Basically I noticed a lot of gradient stuff and smudging going on before your new post looks tons better, great stuff. All I was going to say was add runoff of water and things like that as general wear and tear. Adding moss or water damage on to the base or top of walls keeps things from looking really flat. Painting the shadow or runoff makes things look much more believable and interesting than leaving it up to photoshop gradient.

    I didn't go far with this but I think its enough to show what I mean. You seem to be on the right track though as I can see you started doing it on certain parts of the model so keep it up! Great job man. smile.gif

    donenn3.jpg

    donecs9.gif
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Thank you guys for your support. It's funny to look at where this started out because it looks so different. The way I was going with color choices looks abit clownish now. Glad I followed what people said and re-worked this. Anyways, new texture stuff...

    Monument011.jpg

    I also took off the texture filters for now because it helps me notice details that may be missed when blended. So, is this on the right track for water and weather damage? Still more places need work like the upper section with ornaments and shields but it's getting there I think.
  • Wells
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    Wells polycounter lvl 18
    Man. I just now read this thread from top to bottom - was damn pleasantly surprised by the last images. Huge improvement.

    There's no need to get rid of *all* the color, though. I'd go back in and add a few touches and hints of the colors you had before. saturate the roof a wee bit. get some of that gold/bronze back into the shields to make them pop.

    couple niggling things - you're missing the frame around the openings with the skellies in them. Other than that, the corners should be single blocks stacked on each other - on one side [the right] you have a split going down, leaving an awkward 1/3 thick block.

    you need some shading on the roof where the dormers come out. right now their shapes are completely lost.

    the smaller blocks at the base with the moss on the top? they end jarringly where they intersect with the walls. either get rid of the green [which is no-where else] or add some shading to the walls to help blend the two.

    sharpen up that plaque and add some saturation to the gold [bronze? metal?]
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    Monument012.jpg

    Got rid of the green mold that was distracting. I also sharpened up the emblem up top and the shields have some wear and tear now. I also added alpha mapped planes with some shadows to show where certain objects meet. I thibnk it makes the dormers pop more as well as some objects around the base. Still need to add those windows with the skulls. Also, fixed the weird block texturing on the sides that was pointed out. More to come when I get out of work tonight. gotta close up shop. >.<
  • Cody
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    Cody polycounter lvl 15
    Wow. A lot of improvement from the beginning. Some alpha planes with vines growing on it would work well in my opinion. Should maybe start blocking out a simple environment to go with it so you can really get a mood and style going.
  • chungking2399
    thi is looking pretty good, a mock up enviro would be cool maybe do beauty render
  • cholden
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    cholden polycounter lvl 18
    Not feeling any of the skulls. Really need to put some emphasis on them. Because all I can see when I at this is how they don't read as skulls.
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