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Beowulf. Digging the uncanny valley deeper

polycounter lvl 18
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Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
I believe, boys and girls, that this might be the very apitome of stupid Hollywood executive decisions. Behold the new champion for most incredibly pointless use of CG ever
http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/beowulf/large.html
What the hell were they thinking? If you're going to use a digital scan and a mo-cap of the actor just use the fucking actor live action for christ sake.

With that all that said, I guess the movie itself might be ok.

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  • Wells
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    Wells polycounter lvl 18
    this trailer confuses me.

    is the entire thing cg? the quality seems to vary wildly from scene to scene, and sometimes from actor to actor within the same scene.

    grendel looks like a mummified gollum.
  • Hito
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    Hito interpolator
    zemekis is pushing the tech real hard. Polar express, then monster house then this...

    It looks acceptablely creepy to me. Reminds me of Final Fantasy spirits within.

    the few frames of Anthony Hopkin character looked very similar to Dr Cid to me.

    Why does Beowulf have a Frodo's sword when he's in the cave of Grendel's mother? It even glows blue!
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    is the entire thing cg

    [/ QUOTE ]Yep. Zemeckis doesn't seem to have learned from the harsh criticisms he got for his previous CG movies.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    Surprisingly, I looks good. Scanned Angelina ftw! Possibly first nude scene in a full CG feature film? :P
  • gauss
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    gauss polycounter lvl 18
    well we're not getting out of the valley by not trying, are we? smile.gif

    granted i think it looks pretty stiff too, but there are some decent reasons to try this out, even when the results are still pretty mixed. the biggest critique would be for striving for near-photorealism, of course... why not put some stank on it?

    animation aside, at least Neil Gaiman has a co-screenwriter credit. from the trailer, he seems to have reconfigured the Beowulf myth into something involving a sort of faustian deal... Beowulf as Grendel's mother-fucker? Grendel as some twisted spawn of Beowulf? probably worth a look for the writing (unlike Spirits Within).
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    i think this movie would have looked a LOT better with real actors and not crappy wooden cg. i don't think a single shot in that movie had any life in it. all looked dead.
  • Gav
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    Gav quad damage
    In kind of the same vein as Gauss...I'm not really sure why they practically replicate the actors in 3d. I'd rather see real actors on tons of blue screen (Like 300) than full 3d versions of them striving for photorealism. Why not use their voices but get a little more funky with the character design?

    I'll see it though...looks bad ass.
  • Ozymandias
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    Ozymandias polycounter lvl 18
    I have to agree with everyone on this, creating cg characters to look like their real life actor counterparts just seems stupid. Plus, the trailer looked completely lifeless and boring.
  • Malekyth
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    Malekyth polycounter lvl 18
    Maybe they did it in CG just to help Ray Winstone pull off the mythic superhero look?

    Don: "Fuck off, you're revolting. Look at your suntan, it's leather, it's like leather man, your skin. We could make a fucking suitcase out of you. Like a crocodile, fat crocodile, fat bastard. You look like fucking Idi Amin, you know what I mean?"

    Well, these are concept movies. Zemekis has an idea, and he wants to do it. It's not a matter of what's maximally-effective or artistic or efficient or what makes sense, it's just a thing he likes to do, and he has the power to do it. There is more than enough room for this kinda thing.

    (though I agree, it's a bit goofy-lookin')
  • Jay Evans
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    Jay Evans polycounter lvl 18
    Like others have said, if you are going to use the exact likeness and voice of an actor, then why not just shoot them on film? At least they get to reuse all thier polar express tech, lighting and, enviroments. But who can really complain after seeing CG Angelina. smile.gif
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Maybe the budget wasn't big enough to take the time and cost of creating characters from scratch versus just paying the voice actors extra to get them scanned in?

    It does look intriguing story wise. Uncanny Valley majorly though.
  • nitzmoff
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    nitzmoff polycounter lvl 18
    What is the point of this? Shelve the models so we can see a new movie starring Jolie and Hopkins in 100 years? Why not just have real people in this movie?

    So incredibly stupid and excessive. We're in the 80's of CG here folks.
  • Luxury
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    Luxury polycounter lvl 18
    I had thought that Zemekis had learned his lesson after Polar Express. I guess I was wrong. Polar Express was dead. So he then comes back with Monster House which fixed the major problem with Polar Express. He made it stylized. Monster House was a HUGE improvement because of this, and gave me hope for Beowulf...
    ...and then this trailer. Ugh. My teeth were grinding through the entire thing. Instantly went from one of my more anticipated films to one that I'm terrified to watch.
    Interested in how much the story has changed though.
  • Rob Galanakis
    I thought it looked pretty good except for the dead facial animation. Take a lesson from LotR, Pirates, etc., that film live actors and use that mocap for the CG models. Their faces are just so dead, like the only thing animating are some aim constraints.

    I still think something like this is quite stupid to do in CG but the right facial animation would make it look a whole lot better. I just don't understand how they got it so wrong, did they film any actors or actresses, or just wing it?

    I don't know if the movie was filmed live-action and then animated, it doesn't look it, but I hope it was... its pretty sad when someone with as fake a voice as Angelina is getting paid for voiceovers and likeness only, these are actors and if they can't actually act they aren't very effective except as star-appeal (and at a point star appeal can only go so far). What a waste... for the price of one mediocre movie you can make two good ones!

    Use CG for action and live-action for emotional scenes... I cannot comprehend this decision or how this guy still gets money to make movies.
  • blankslatejoe
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    blankslatejoe polycounter lvl 19
    ick..looks miserable.

    its the animation that gets me. motion capturing--it never looks as realistic as it 'should'...it ends up looking like a bad animation college's thesis reel.
  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    well we're not getting out of the valley by not trying, are we? smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly, thanks for saying this Gauss. Seriously, it may not be perfect, but if not for movies like this and people who make this kind of thing technology would not advance at the same rate. Maybe it doesn't look perfect, but atleast they are trying. I find that far more respectable than the attitudes of most of you who have commented thus far.

    Though given that it is all cg some more stylization would be nice.

    Interesting about Neil Gaiman writing though. I'll definitely be checking it out.
  • Wells
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    Wells polycounter lvl 18
    Lauding a failed effort simply for trying is good and all, but it doesn't exactly promote advancement. This whole board is for getting people to bring their A game, not to look at the art and say "well, at least you're trying."

    I also thought up an example involving the Challenger, but too many analogies in a post is like a billy goat with two peckers.
  • McIlroy
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    McIlroy polycounter lvl 17
    Happy for the CG artists who got to work on it but man I have to agree just as pointless as Final Fantasy the movie which I think looked better btw
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I have to agree just as pointless as Final Fantasy the movie which I think looked better btw

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Talking of which, looks like Dr. Sid gets a cameo role here!

    It irks me greatly that the main character model has a certain style (or more likely naiivety) about him yet theyr're clearly going for photoZreal with other characters.
  • SkullboX
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    SkullboX polycounter lvl 18
    That trailer looked totally horrible, what a waste of money. Instead of taking the 3D medium further by investing that time in developing a unique style that helps their story they're just throwing it all away on 'photorealism'.

    [ QUOTE ]
    I thought it looked pretty good except for the dead facial animation. Take a lesson from LotR, Pirates, etc., that film live actors and use that mocap for the CG models. Their faces are just so dead, like the only thing animating are some aim constraints.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually Davy Jones' facial animations weren't motion captured, but handanimated using Bill Nighy's footage only as reference. The body motion was motion captured though.
  • doc rob
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    doc rob polycounter lvl 19
    This is just bad art. You can get good performance out of CG humans these days. It's been possible since Gollum. You can stylize like Ratatouille. You can use universal capture or a blend like the Pirates flicks.

    There is a shot near the end of the trailer where the main character is screaming and THERE IS ALMOST NO CREASING IN HIS FACE. Bad art plain and simple.
  • Joshua Stubbles
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    I didn't think it was that bad.
  • Ged
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    Ged interpolator
    I was quite confused, some of it does look real but other parts look like the intro movie for age of empires 1 ! the inconsistency is just really wierd, perhaps the team just couldnt keep such a high level of quality going for the whole project?
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Beowulf as Grendel's mother-fucker? Grendel as some twisted spawn of Beowulf?

    [/ QUOTE ]I suppose this qualifies as a spoiler for those not up on their quasi-Nordic mythologies.

    I don't know the story all that well, but from what I remember the titular character fights Grendel, tears of his arm and then chases him to his undersea cave. Grendel dies and Beowulf meats his mother who he then has sex with. I'm not sure where it goes from there. I think Maybe Beowulf has to protect the monster mummy from other warriors or some such.
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    the inconsistency is just really wierd, perhaps the team just couldnt keep such a high level of quality going for the whole project?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Looking at it again more closely, my guess is that they had scan data as reference for some of the major characters (Jolie in particular) but in not using Ray Winstons likeness for Beowulf, ended up with something that felt a lot less realistic than the other characters.

    That's an incredibly accurate Jolie model, and it doesn't sit well in the scene next to Beowulf to me.

    I don't like Zemeckis, hated Polar Express, and this whole thing doesn't gel for me, but I think it's doing it a disservice to deny that there is some impressive computer graphics happening in places here, particularly if watching in HD.
  • coldwolf
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    coldwolf polycounter lvl 18
    In the poem, Beowulf was huge--7 or 8 feet of huge. He looked almost small in this trailer. And I don't appreciate them taking artistic liberties with my most beloved piece of literature. OTOH, they seemed to have changed it enough that I can treat it as a whole new story rather than a retelling.

    The only problems with the presentation are animations and consistency (shaders and lighting look great in one scene, shit in another). I hope they cleaned it up a bit since they made this trailer. Regardless, I'll watch it in theaters.
  • Toomas
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    Toomas polycounter lvl 18
    Going fully 3d gives ultimate freedom with the camera. If he wants to do it so bad and there are people who pay him to do it then what the hell?
    And i personally belive that there is huge future for relistic looking 3d movies.
  • StrangeFate
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    StrangeFate polycounter lvl 18
    I'm kinda glad some people are exploring CG and pushing it. It has a way to go but so did and do games. If noone is willing to get dirty it will never get anywhere.

    Looking at the prices of actors i can see why anyone would prefer to use CG alternatives... specially when it comes down to showing skin, it's like you pay from every square centimeter of skin.
    And hey, you don't have to worry about CG not blending properly with the real world elements.
  • Slum
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    Slum polycounter lvl 18
    Meh... Why didn't they just hire Daz to do everything?
  • doc rob
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    doc rob polycounter lvl 19
    Toomas and StrangeFate: I too would be excited if they were pushing the boundaries of CG, if they were doing a good realistic full 3D movie instead of only Pixar style. The problem is they're doing it badly. They're not pushing the boudaries. They're not (at least in this trailer) doing CG characters as well as many other movies that have come before them. They're off in FF and Polar Express territory. That is sucky territory.

    I like the *idea* of this movie - a full CG Beowulf. It's the execution I have a problem with.
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    Aye, it looks like shite. I'm not going to bother getting my artistic sensibilities in a twist over it.

    Watching the trailer, seeing what I later learned to be ray winstone and initially thought looked like a mangled sean bean ( had been drinking, it was 1am), seeing his name come up in the credits, rewinding while 'wtf' runs through my mind before realization sets in... pretty funny in hindsight.

    So yeah , peace of shit, walk away.

    Mal:Shite, now I need to watch Sexy Beast again smile.gif

    r.
  • bounchfx
    wow.. I can see why they are doing the film but even spirits within felt less valley to me... and um, wow, way to make jolie even fuglier than she is in real life. I didn't think it was possible!
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    On the upside the game tie in is looking pretty decent, largely because they don't seem to have made any attempt to follow the movie
    http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/beowulf-gameplay-screens-unveiled-282593.php
    Kinda cross between God of War and Overlord by the look of things.
  • HonkyPunch
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    HonkyPunch polycounter lvl 18
    I've got an even better idea
    Why doesn't he just fucking shit all over it?
    And you know;
    Tell them that it's SPECIAL EFFECTS.
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