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Teenage Demon

'k so, i thought of posting a WIP of a character that i just recently thought up (a teenage demon) and, i thought of showing the rough sketch that i made of him so i could get some comments or crits about any changes needed. He's going to be a low poly character, so im trying to figure out what the limits are for RPG games of these days (eg Fable: The Lost Chapters).

here it is:
1a6b16e5-teenageDemon-jpg.jpg
(i know that the quality is really bad... sorry about that)

apart from looking for general comments, i had a specific question: the anti christ ornament (key for the gates of hell) on his side... is that offensive in any way to anybody out there? Should i replace it with a pentagram or something? By the way, proportions are supposed to be messed up...

model updates coming soon...
thanks...

Replies

  • indian_boy
    hmm... no comments?
    is the drawing that bad?

    well... anyways... decided to go ahead with the modelling. And here is the model after 3-4 hours of work intertwined with playing quake4:
    5dfdc524-stage01-jpg.jpg
    how does it look?
  • gauss
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    gauss polycounter lvl 18
    Abhishek i don't think you're following my advice smile.gif sorry I didn't comment on the other topic or this topic sooner, I was away over the weekend.
    the only way you're going to get better now is by studying better artists. That's a two-fold approach: you'll need to study anatomy so as to model it accurately, and you'll need to study modelers' with good geometry so that you get a sense for good meshflow, good polygon distribution and so forth.

    take for example a problem that was very clear from your first model but is still present in this one as well: you draw the pectoral muscles in sort of a blobby, blocky fashion. and so, surprise surprise, they come out looking the same way on your model. which is why, concurrent with improving your drawing skills, you need to model from better concepts. I was serious about that laugh.gif

    if you want to model a demon-type character, give this one a shot. http://gauss.cottages.polycount.com/req/demon_sheet.jpg
    it's an old one of mine, but i think it fits the bill--your concepts aren't quite detailed enough right now to give you much of a challenge/improvement for modeling. consider that your homework smile.gif
  • Xaltar
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    Xaltar polycounter lvl 17
    Nice Orthos gauss. indian_boy, you might like to check this out too, it has helped me a lot laugh.gif

    Hey, how about one of you uber Model creators start a sticky homework thread to help out us noobs laugh.gif
  • ChaosEidolon
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    ChaosEidolon polycounter lvl 17
    for empasis i will ecco gauss here.

    anatomy is key, observation is key. It is very hard to sell a character design when there are problems with the anatomy since we, as people, are so innately keyed into our own appearances.
    I can tell youre taking influence from an anime style for the face, which is a BAD idea. Good anime artists are only good because they learned correct anatomy and abstracted from there.

    Id suggest 2 areas that would probably benefit your drawing style the most. First, try to study the body in 3d and draw it in perspective. Try to do some excercises of breaking the body down into simple 3d shapes. Check out Bridgeman or Loomis for some good reference. www.fineart.sk has some loomis examples for free dl.

    2nd, try to keep weight in mind when drawing. Youre trying to trick us into seeing your sketch as solid character stading in a 3d space somewhere beyond the paper. Determine what leg your char is leaning his weight on, and try to adjust the rest of his body to appear as if it's balancing correctly around that leg

    check this example: http://www.siggraph.org/education/materi...ontrapposto.htm

    dont get discouraged with this stuff though. the trick is to just chip away at it from different angles and before you know it you'll see some major improvement
  • indian_boy
    wow... thanks for the comments everybody...

    @Gauss - Im sorry to hear you feel that way (no taking the advice). I am trying to take the advice you gave me earlier, but occasionaly, my 15 year old mind drifts (sorry). As for observing other modellers; i downloaded some video tutorials from poopinmymouth's website, and i think they will help me to figure out the mesh flow stuff. I try to go through some art books that show the anatomy, so i'm trying to learn to draw out figures first. Also, thank you very much for the drawing/concept/orthos (it is really awesome) and i would like to work on that, but at the moment, i want to see how far i can get with this. Maybe with crits, (like urs about the pecs) i can actually get this model to work? I hope u dont mind my decision, and i hope that you still offer your extremely helpful criticism.

    @Xaltar - thanks for the link, i think its gonna help me too, and thats a good suggestion(homework thread) laugh.gif

    @ChaosEidolon - thank you for your advice. I am, honestly, using a manga/anime style face, (but i have a zoomed in image of the face which is not manga, and is a bit scarier) so i guess i should stop doing that. Thank you for the links; they are great resources. Also, i notice that your crit on weight distribution is a good point, thanks for bringing it to my notice.

    Thanks for all your comments and crits, i will post up an update this evening (indian standard time) and am looking forward to more. don't worry about discouraging me, lol, harsh criticism tends to make me strive harder to get better. grin.gif

    UPDATE:
    heres the chest, modified...
    e98a5332-stage01-1-jpg.jpg
    is it looking any better? what other changes should i add to it?

    thanks
  • Geezus
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    Geezus mod
    I'm not sure if this has been meantioned yet (it's late...I'm tired...and lazy), but the mesh flow needs work. It all seems very "I made this from a box". You've started getting it a bit more with the chest/torso area...but all in all it's still very boxy, doesn't feel organic at all.
  • FunkaDelicDass
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    FunkaDelicDass polycounter lvl 18
    You need to study the shoulder/pec/bicep area. Right now your bicep is too big, and you don't have a good shoulder meshflow for animation purposes. It might help to model your arms at a slightly downward angle; they don't have to be that straight.
  • indian_boy
    thanks for the suggestions and crits guys, i tried looking at a few anatomy books, and i think im getting a feel for this region (not really...) as for mesh flow; what exactly should i change, or what is going wrong?

    as of now, i have worked on the upper torso alot more, and hopefully, have given a more organic look and feel to it...
    58268ec6-stage02-jpg.jpg
    how is it?
    any comments and crits are welcome, especially on meshflow, and anatomy
  • Xaltar
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    Xaltar polycounter lvl 17
    Meshflow is exactly wha the name suggests, the smoothness of the flow of the mesh. Square is bad. Take a picture of a person in side view, then draw a line down that is never more or less then one cm from the edge of the body, its never streight and the same should hold true in your model work. Your edges should flow with the curves of what you are trying to define.
  • indian_boy
    okay, thanks...

    well, i've been working on the model alot, but due to some problems with the net, i wasnt able to log on to the net, let alone post any updates... so now i've reached the stage of texturing, as im pretty happy with the model (will post image later).

    A few questions i had were:
    1) wat exactly is relaxing UVWs?
    2) are there any (free) softwares out there to make the UVW mapping process easier?
    3) wat's the best way to minimalize texture stretching?

    apart form this, any tips on UVW layout or painting maps using photoshop would be very helpful.

    thanks
  • Psyk0
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    Psyk0 polycounter lvl 18
    1)It means the uv's are spread in a proportionate manner relative to each other, it also helps reduce distortion.

    2)I dunno about free ones, but the new relax and pelt mapping in max really help. Deep UV is nice too (costs money tho).

    3)I'd say using relax and manually adjusting problem spots is the best way.
  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    Blender has pelt mapping and it's 100% free software that you don't even have to risk personal info to get a "demo" for like many other programs. Just use the OBJ format to exchange to and fro smile.gif
  • indian_boy
    okay, thanks for the answers, they cleared up some problems i had. As for blender, no thanks, i tried it once and i didnt like it (i cant remember why?).


    as i finished mapping the character, i realised that there are a few more problems that might come up. First of all, here is the layout, yes, it is a bit messy:

    8ae7602b-layout-jpg.jpg

    1) now, as u can probably see, i have set up alot of things for symetrical mapping. What i did was in 'body01' i deleted those parts which would be symmetrical, mapped it then mirrored it, and in 'body02' i only kept the symmetrical parts unhidden. After i finish painting the textures, i will attach and weld them. This should work out, right?

    2) As for normal mapping, i want to get alot of detail, but my comp. can only support less than 1 million polies at a time. So i decided to take the model into ZBrush 2 in parts (head, torso etc) then bring them back and normal map through the projection modif. But, in ZBrush, when i apply "Geometry > Divide" the seams get all wavy and improper... how do i fix this? or are there any other ways of normal mapping the parts separately?

    thanks guys...
  • Robert Headley
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    Robert Headley polycounter lvl 18
    normal mapping?

    man, you need to start simple.
    I dare say you should be rigging models, before you are normal mapping them. Its a talent that will serve you better in the longrun.
  • Josh_Singh
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    Josh_Singh polycounter lvl 18
    Hey Indian Boy, get good at modeling before you get into normal mapping! let's not throw the carriage before the horse. But hey who the hell am I? as long as it makes you happy I guess. smile.gif
  • indian_boy
    okay, i guess i won't be doing any normal maps then. I suppose it is better to start out simple, even though i find painting details into diffuse maps VERY difficult. I have managed to put something together over the last few days, and am feeling pretty proud of it. It is the hardest i have ever worked on a texture,be it for a character or a crate, and its come out (in my opinion) okay. Now, it is nowhere near done, there is alot more work, but i wanted to post up what i have done so far for some feedback. I have posted 5 images, one each for the head, torso, legs, alpha tex and diffuse tex. I hope u can take some time to look over them and give some feedback. Im not looking for anything specific really, just some general comments, crits and suggestions/tips.

    texd01bl3.th.jpg

    texa01ug7.th.jpg

    texhead01lc2.th.jpg

    textorso01hy9.th.jpg

    texlegs01oe2.th.jpg

    Thanks guys, looking forward to all the help i can get...

    PS: rendering is done with Anti-aliasing turned off, and material self-illumination set to 100 and no lighting set-up (dont have bump map or spec map to show... yet).
  • tremulant
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    tremulant polycounter lvl 17
    You're definately making progress...Here's some advice though...Think of every step in this progress as a building block...If your concept is weak, then everything will be weaker, if your model is weak, then everything after that will be worse, and then once that is all done, the texture needs to be great to really sell the model.

    So make sure to spend extra time on things to get them down pat before moving on...Much the same way you decided to stay simple and not do normal mapping this time around.
  • Rota626
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    Rota626 polycounter lvl 17
    Hi!
    Good start,but I think a 1024*1024 map can hold a LOT more detail. Take a look around at b1ll's website, he has some great step by step mini-tutorials how to put a lot more detail to a fairly low-res map.
    Keep it up!

    Rota
  • indian_boy
    thanks guys... and thats a good analogy tremulant... i guess my next concept (when it comes) will hopefully be much better.
    And thanks for the site reference...

    Now... I suppose its been a long time since i posted an update, so the work i've done looks minimal, but i had made a lot of mistakes while getting to what you see now. I mainly improved details on the arms, torso and leg... i guess i'll have to focus on the head a bit more, but i need to think up some detailing for that...

    2f8914ba-stage04-jpg.jpg

    5c2df83e-texD02-jpg.jpg

    tell me what you guys think... i feel it's getting closer to completion?
    once again... just looking for some general comments and crits...

    thanks
  • Motz
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    Motz polycounter lvl 12
    For the output produced, the polycount and map size are too large. You seriously need to work on art over game asset creation. Forget about the technical things for now and focus on learning basic traditional art concepts in figure drawing and sculpture, then apply them to this application.

    I'm not saying give up, i'm saying you owe it to yourself to better yourself in other areas first. Try modeling something high poly using edge loops and good topology practice. Human/organic figures tend to be very difficult to start out on. Humans are built to be able to distinguish between real and unreal humanoids.
  • Xaltar
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    Xaltar polycounter lvl 17
    Wow dude, you have made some nice progress since I last checked this thread. Yes the model is bad but its a lot better than when last I saw it. Keep hamering at it. Have a look for edge loop tutos and work on your meshflow. You may also want to look at doing a non humanoid model as Motz suggested, its a lot more forgiving and it should help you find your way arround better.

    For your next concept, try using someone elses orthos, there are a lot out there in tutos and such, your drawing skills are not up to snuff enough for you to be doing your own concepts yet, practice your drawing skills and try spending some time on your 2d artwork. Tutorials are your friend wink.gif
  • indian_boy
    okay, its been very long since i posted on here, mainly because i had lost steam on the project and i was hoping for comments to add up, giving ideas for something that the character needs.

    First of all, thank you guys for the advice.

    Now, for the next concept, which is actually in progress right now and is also humanoid (unfortunately?), i have drawn a real basic sketch of what i want and have given it to my friend to build on. He's a great artist, and he wants to be a concept artist when he grows up, so this way... he gets to make some artwork, and i get to model MY concept off of a better artists drawing (that sentence confuses me too!)

    well, anyways... this post is supposed to be a sort of bump... so:

    :BUMP:

    I just wanted some more comments/ideas/suggestions to spice up the model. I will start rigging and posing him soon, so i wanna check if there is anything i should add.

    Thanks again...
  • Mark Dygert
    ouch I remember this one, it hurts. I'm going to be brutally honest and hope that it helps. It's horrible. It doesn't do your concept justice, the concept isn't that hot to start with. But tweaking your concept will only get you so far. You have much to learn about form, textures, and what gives character to characters.

    Construction:
    There are too many polygons for that level of detail.
    The texture you have wastes UV space and is way too damn big. If you shrank that texture down to 256x256 you would see very little detail loss. That is because you used the paint bucket more than the brush.
    The scale of the UV pieces is all wrong. The eye takes up as much texture space as the face!? 90% of that eye you will never see as it sits facing the back of the head.

    The Mouth:
    What is with the "I'm giving oral mouth"!? Is he a blow up doll? I don't see that mouth on the concept where did it come from? Poor construction or last min design change? Either way it needs to be fixed it is sucking the life out of the character.


    The Legs:
    articulated1.gif
    Hooved legs normally means skinny goat legs with a weird backward knee thing. The legs being so big and bulbous as they are they steal strength from the torso. It doesn't matter how ripped you paint the texture if the shape of the mesh doesn't say powerful. Check these out, see how the chest is huge and the legs feet are smaller? That shape says power, the reverse does not. What you have is the reverse. I can see you're going for the baggy pants look but with legs made out of flesh instead of pants. It doesn't work. I see two options for the legs.
    - Slim them down, give them the double joint but keep the hooves pretty big but tapered not bulbous. Check out horse legs, goat legs, and other hooved animals for reference.
    OR Put pants on him.
    freedom-hsb_1923_17130470.jpgomenpantswhite.jpg
    Tan Khaki cargo pants would work nicely OR the cliche black goth EMO pants. If you go goth EMO, you'll have to put cut marks on his wrists and 4 years of black eye liner around his eyes, don't for get to smear it down the cheeks as all EMO cry.

    Lastly paint some detail on the hooves, right now they are black blobs of nothingness, you can't tell what they are. Check out some hoof reference and paint what you see, because using the paint bucket isn't getting you detail. And for the love of all that is pure and holy don't start chopping photos to make up for the lack of painted detail, learn to paint first.

    See what I did there? I hunted up reference, please do that before starting the next model, it will help it really will.
  • indian_boy
    first of all, Vig, thanks for the honest reply. though it was 'brutal' it is also very helpful...

    now... um:
    this guy will be having no pants, so i will redo the meshwork on the legs and hooves.
    as for the 'im giving a blow job' mouth, i just left the mouth open so that if i rig it with bones, it would be easier (i felt). But if it's a bad idea to do it like that, then good that i found out smile.gif, and i will rework the mouth aswell.

    now, one thing that has been bothering me:
    what exactly makes a "hot" concept. I'm not suggesting that my one is that cool, but what is it really that gives a piece of concept art the extra "coolness." Is my IDEA simply boring, or is the DRAWING very static and boring? What should i do to improve in this field (concept art)?

    thanks for the comments and the help.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    maybe make it more original ? i have seen tons of demons, etc and they all look the same : Horns , red , etc...:)to practise your texturing i would recomend downloading some SDK`s and just texture them .
  • Mark Dygert
    It's a good concept, but needs to be finished or properly scanned. A good concept is normally straight on front and side views, next to each other and all the features line up. This is the best kind of concept to get you rolling and actually build off of. They normally don't look "dynamic" but they work well for the 3D artist. The most common kind of concept is what you have, something that only conveys the idea to the 3D artists but gives no firm foundation to build on.

    Artistically the concept you have is ok. I would like to see a better scan and some Photoshop loving done to it to polish it up. Check out some of Mike's art and tutorials about how to do this. It appears the concept was done on a small scale and is smudged? Draw your concepts big, everything looks good at thumbnail size but blow it up and you find it lacks detail. Don't concept on post-it-note size paper use a full (and by full I mean full) sheet of paper, feet at the bottom, head at the top. "Ahh vig that means I have to actually draw details like hands" yup get some books and get used to it. Knocking out a few thumbnails and rough sketches is fine, but not for a "final concept".
    Examples of detail lost due to small sketch size:
    - The nose. It looks like a single pencil mark. Is that a normal human nose? Is that an imp nose? Is it an anime/Michael Jackson nose? Is that a "I don't have a nose"? Can't tell...
    - Is that a goatee? Can't tell concept was drawn too small.
    - Hands? long claws? 3 fingers or 4? Can't tell concept has blurry hands posed in the classic "I can't draw hands" fists.
    - Ear? I see an ear ring, but is that an ear? is it pointy like an elf? Is it normal like a human?
    - the horn looks to be coming out of the temple just above the ear? While I really like the horn bending like that, awesome detail, its not a good place for it.
    - Is that an eye scar or a smudge? If the concept was bigger the scan would be better and I could tell.

    As for the mouth on the model. It seems small, hard to tell with it gaping like it is. Normally you want to build your models as close to the standard pose as possible, with some small adjustments for rigging. Modeling with an open mouth seems silly to me as I keep the upper and lower verts on separate selections so rigging is easy, this selection goes to that bone, the other to that one, paint weights and your done (not that easy but you get the picture). closed or near closed is easier on the eyes and gives you a look at what everyone else will see, a non gaping character. More than likely you'll get some stretching or pinching if you model the mouth that open. Ask yourself when is the character going to be giving oral like that in the game? All the time? Ok leave it, but if not close it up a bit.

    It's hard to think something is cool when its in a dorky or odd pose, such as mouth hanging open... Which will lead to a lot of knee jerk reactions of "ya-ouch that hurts my eyes".

  • Mark Dygert
    goatboy.gif
    This paint over isn't really up to standard but given the time I had to work on it, it gets the message across... kind of... ok poorly. Hopefully you'll get something out of my 20min of wierdness.

    - Neck, he needs one. The head looks like a blob sticking out of the torso. He needs a jaw line and he needs shadows under that jaw line. It looks like his mouth is gaping becuse it is fused to his chest and he couldn't shut it if he wanted to.
    - The pupils in the eyes are small black dots. The eye is more than a tiny dot in the center of the eye. That black dot is normally covered up by the eye lids. That black dot carries a huge weight of emotion which is based on size, shape, where it is located. Check out some eye painting tutorials. If you're going to have a 1024x1024 texture I expect to see more detail in the eyes than one click with a 3 pixel brush.
    - Bring the horns and the goatee back, they add character.
    - More anatomy tweaks, much better than what I knocked over hopefully.
  • indian_boy
    wow. thanks Vig, and i mean it... thanks alot. Ur criticism is giving me a great amount of focus on what to change, what is lacking, and what to watch out for in the future...
    and thanks for taking the time out to do that paint-over.

    now, i've done some of the suggestions, and i think i should post an update before i get too far, considering that i might make another blunder.

    i still need to start work on the hooves btw...

    so, how is it:

    515308a0-stage05-jpg.jpg

    still looking forward to as much criticism and suggestions that i can get...
  • indian_boy
    hmm... okay. well, srry for the double post, but its meant to be a bump aswell...

    i just have a few questions about tablets (drawing tablets)

    I was thinking of buying a Wacom Intuos3 9" X 12". Its in my price range, and its available in india. Now, im thinking, is it a good option or should i wait, get more cash, and then buy a larger one?

    Plus, the Intuos 3 works with photoshop CS2 right? Cuz that is the main reason i would be buying it.

    thanks
  • eld
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    eld polycounter lvl 18
    the A5 intous3 is perfect, imo you won't need anything bigger.

    And yes, it works with photoshop cs2, and tons of other applications.
  • eld
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    eld polycounter lvl 18
    Took my sweet time to do a small paintover to help you a bit, (and I need to practice teaching people) win-win!!

    paintovernj9.jpg

    1. You want to paint as much ambient shading into the texture as you can, and in the "standard" case you'll have shading under the head, so that the head doesn't look like it has no neck.

    2. Blocking out more and more shapes, more shading and stuff, shadows under the nose, shadows onto the eyesockets, bones sticking out beneath the skin.

    3. Studying the mouth does wonders, and you could generally change the shape you currently have there, once again, shading under the upper lip, shading under the lower lip, and since the lips are usually wet (maybe not with hot demon) they might also have a bit glossiness to them, and beneath the glosiness they are darker than the skin.

    4. Try hiding the teeth by shading them, the further in the teeth are, the more shaded and darker they will be, or something, practice!

    5. eyes are like the teeth, wet and a bit hidden, so they have a darker colour than the bright white, but have small specular highlights from pretend-lights in the scene.

    6. play around with having different colours in different areas in the texture, like more gray-red in some areas, more purplered in others, depending on what the material is like there, like bloodvessels, bones, etc.


    7. HAVE FUN!


    PS. I might be wrong in any area.
  • fogmann
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    fogmann polycounter lvl 17
    I don't think you would want tablet larger than 9x12. That one is pretty large. I had 6x8 and it was fine for the most part, except that it wasn't Wacom, so then I got 9x12 Intuos and it is taking a lot of space, although I still love it. I guess it depends on how broad strokes you make while drawing. If you find yourself scribbling in small areas, then 6x8 would be better for you. With larger tablets you need to move your hand quite a bit to reach menus and tools. And yes, Intuos works with CS2.
  • Mark Dygert
    Nice! Now you're getting somewhere. I see big leaps in the areas that needed improvement. I think you're mostly on the money for the mesh. The arms might be a touch long, if you bring the arms down so they rested vertical along the body the tips of the fingers should line up around mid thigh. Right now they look like they might land on the knee?

    Eld brings up some great points, especially about the ambient shadows being part of the texture. You came a long way in seperating the head from the neck and just a few defused shadows in the right places would sharpen up the transition nicely.

    Try to think about a light above your models head, like a bright sun or spot light. Places that stick out on the face will shade some areas. These shadows aren't alaways sharp but often soft and defused.

    Areas that cast shadows:
    - Forehead, casts shadows under the eyebrows, around the eyes and on some people the bridge of the nose. Eyes are set back in the head and almost always need to be shaded.
    - under the nose. Nose sticks out, casting a shadow that almost never disaprears on the upper lip.
    - Upper lip hangs over the lower a tiny bit and casts a very defused shadow.
    - Teeth, like Eld said, never catch that much light so are almost always shaded. They are also hardly ever pure white. Demons aren't known for thier spotless oral higiene and teeth whitening treatments.

    Pst... everyone one on TV goes to great extremes to get their teeth that white. Most of the time your average joe has slightly dull/yellow tooth color. Demons might have down right nasty brown/yellowish teeth.
    - Same goes for thier horns, check out some cattle horn ref. Personally I like the knobby horns of goats for demon horns. Any time you can imply some subtle evil/demonic animal theme like goats, bats, ect... try to squeeze it in but so it won't be noticed right away.

    Think of the horns more as boney protrutions that are growing out of the skull. Horns start out thick around the place of origin (the skull) and start to taper toward the end. You might want to add boney protrutions coming out of the cheeks, eye brows. Check out this scupture for some ideas. I wouldn't go that over the top, but you could slide in a few tiny details and punch up the demon factor a bit.
  • indian_boy
    hey guys. thanks for the advice on the tablet. I'll be buying the 9x12 when it gets back into stock.

    once again, thanks for the advice on the model. over the past few days, work rate has slowed down cuz i've got exams coming up (from tomorrow actually) and so i've been studying. However, i've got a bit of work done (mainly on the head), and thought i'd post it up to get a few more comments.

    stage06be1.th.jpg

    I've added a scar on the left eye, given him the ear ring, and started work on his lips (they're still far from complete).
    Also, according to the comments im getting, i dont think its clear what the nose is supposed to be like. I was trying to make a nose only upto the bridge, with the cartialage portion 'missing.'

    Thanks, by the way, and looking forward to any comments whatsoever...

    g2g study... got a science test on my b-day tomorrow... nothing could be worse, lol...
  • indian_boy
    umm... sorry that i had to do this... but..

    ::bumpity, bumpty BUMP!::

    hehe...

    pls post some comments guys...
    thnks
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