"Wolf! Wolf!" Outsourcing "factory" art.
polycounter lvl 18
Is game art the same as being a in-betweeners for animation? Simply factory work that can be outsourced overseas to the lowest bid factory who can crank it out? Damn if Im having a hard time finding a arguement other than the quality produced from a factory based ideal of art assets. I know a few here work for outsourcing art companies, but would your bosses consider your places "factories"? I keep thinking of those pictures of rows upon rows of inbetweeners in Korea working intent upon each frame. Instead now we will we see rows upon rows of computers in China?
Will we see more and more smaller key development teams that focus on concept development with the majority of the actual art being sent overseas? Core development teams would seem to focus on the concepts which is great for the concept artist. But the modeling, texturing, and even animation artist wouldnt be needed as that could be "factorized", even core characters.
I know this all isnt new, however Mcgee specifically used "factory" in referencing art for games versus using the idea of outsourcing art studio. Thats a key distinction.
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When looking at where game and film production are going in the U.S. and around the world it is clear that only a factory approach to art asset production will satisfy exponentially increasing demand from the market,
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http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10411
I would like to feel is a slap in the face as it seems to demean what some do while others are striving to do as nothing more than a brainless activity of assembly versus creativity. But damn, if I can find a good angle to argue against that other than again quality and workmanship.
If this is indeed the future, which seems less and less able for one to simply stick ones hands in ones ears going "la, la, la" or trying to downplay the effect.. what should one do?
For the student and entry level artist of today. Find another option for those skills? What field would be left? Try to become the best of the best as thats all who will be left to hire from a pool of displaced vetrans and new entries?
While professionals should start taking online courses to get degrees in management and/or speaking cantonese versus honing art skills? To either refocus into a design and management position away from art as that all that seems to stay concrete at a central home country location, or going overseas to become a factory worker in these simply to practice ones love of such art?
I mean shit, what can one do? You cant live day by day with your head down. But what happens when that day does come when you are layed off and find very few jobs that are open with too many applicants because of the shifting workforce?
(So yes now is the time to tell me Im anxious over nothing.. please? pretty please? Hard to do so? Well what would you do in this case? I for one have no other skills wanted other than retail. Doing art and creativity in some form is all I ever wanted. Not being a technician.)
Will we see more and more smaller key development teams that focus on concept development with the majority of the actual art being sent overseas? Core development teams would seem to focus on the concepts which is great for the concept artist. But the modeling, texturing, and even animation artist wouldnt be needed as that could be "factorized", even core characters.
I know this all isnt new, however Mcgee specifically used "factory" in referencing art for games versus using the idea of outsourcing art studio. Thats a key distinction.
[ QUOTE ]
When looking at where game and film production are going in the U.S. and around the world it is clear that only a factory approach to art asset production will satisfy exponentially increasing demand from the market,
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http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10411
I would like to feel is a slap in the face as it seems to demean what some do while others are striving to do as nothing more than a brainless activity of assembly versus creativity. But damn, if I can find a good angle to argue against that other than again quality and workmanship.
If this is indeed the future, which seems less and less able for one to simply stick ones hands in ones ears going "la, la, la" or trying to downplay the effect.. what should one do?
For the student and entry level artist of today. Find another option for those skills? What field would be left? Try to become the best of the best as thats all who will be left to hire from a pool of displaced vetrans and new entries?
While professionals should start taking online courses to get degrees in management and/or speaking cantonese versus honing art skills? To either refocus into a design and management position away from art as that all that seems to stay concrete at a central home country location, or going overseas to become a factory worker in these simply to practice ones love of such art?
I mean shit, what can one do? You cant live day by day with your head down. But what happens when that day does come when you are layed off and find very few jobs that are open with too many applicants because of the shifting workforce?
(So yes now is the time to tell me Im anxious over nothing.. please? pretty please? Hard to do so? Well what would you do in this case? I for one have no other skills wanted other than retail. Doing art and creativity in some form is all I ever wanted. Not being a technician.)
Replies
I agree with you that his choice of wording is distasteful. But factory is just a word. The bottom line is, American McGee is starting a studio in Shanghai because it's cheaper to develop there than the US. That's the bottom line. We can't hide from that fact unfortunately, and I do see things shifting. The place I'm at now will probably end up outsourcing a lot of the content. When I was at EA there was a lot of outsourcing starting to happen (although I personally felt it was largely somewhat disastrous. Very rarely was anything that came back of a high enough calibre that it didn't have to be majorly revamped in one way or another). But then again I'm sure there are plenty of other games companies that wont touch outsourcing with a 60ft pole. So what totally remains to be seen is the full extent any 'shift'.
I mean look around, and there are an absolute TON of games jobs out there right now. So many studios all over the place are hiring. The entire bottom isn't going to fall out of western games development overnight, just because its cheaper to develop in China. There are still important factors other than cost. Quality for one! Heck, have you seen Hero online? That's the pinnacle of Chinese mmo development, and it's ass
I think there's enough market share to go around for Chinese and Western games development to co-exist.
Just concentrate on your Art. If you're good enough I really don't think this is something you should be too concerned about just yet.
Somehow I doubt any serious developer will consider outsourcing most of the art for a game if the company wants to hold creative control and keep it well managed. There's something MAJOR to be said for having the team on site and communicating face to face, working side by side to get a project done and cohesive.
Relax Oxy, belt out some models on the P&P forum dammit!
The same thing will probably happen with art assets. Just a brute force production of art to try and fill the companies requests as quickly as possible. Then they realize how bad the art looks and hire a bunch of domestic artists to fix it.
I'm speaking with limited knowledge of the industry and team dynamics, but I seriously don't get how a team could outsource the major resources of a game's art. Minor things, background clutter, sure, you might be able to out source. But when it comes to major things like the characters of a game, how would you possibly buckle down on the visual style of a game if most of your artists are thousands of miles away and might not even speak your language? How could that possibly work well!!?
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Like the artists have managers who can speak english and there is like video conversations and stuff.
You propably think that the artists there are some retarded monkies who see a computer first time in their life, but in reality its quite the opposite.
edit: And how many games actually have some visual STYLE?
99% are "lets make it as realistic looking as we can",
fuck you could almost use poser models for 90% of the games.
Just concentrate on your Art. If you're good enough I really don't think this is something you should be too concerned about just yet.
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Words of Wisdom.
Like the artists have managers who can speak english and there is like video conversations and stuff.
You propably think that the artists there are some retarded monkies who see a computer first time in their life, but in reality its quite the opposite.
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Yes, that is exactly what I thought, you took the words right out of my mouth! They have a bunch monkeys strapped to chairs in some factory!
No, I think they have talent and skilled at what they do, however a team sometimes needs to communicate with an individual artist in order to get the assets just right, the more middlemen or things that get in the way of communication, the farther the team will be off from the art they need and the more time will be spent going back and forth getting it fixed.
All it does is create a needless sense of unease with very little personal outlet to unload that feeling. And that's just not right.
Yes, there are plenty of issues that are extremely important and are worthwhile participating on a grassroots level because this is really all we can do to help, whether it be doing our part to recycle, reduce emissions, or of course VOTE on a variety of issues, something most people have undervalued for much too long. But there will always be these sort of high-level shifts occuring that are out of our control, outside of our personal scope that can distract us from what we ought to be paying attention to, which are the things we can control.
The point is that even for the things we can change in our own lives, it's going to be on a local and small, personal scale. Be the change you want to see in the world, to quote Ghandi.
Oxy, you do us and especially yourself a great disservice by dwelling on issues like this. Not because they aren't important, but because you need to keep your priorities in better perspective (as do we all). First and foremost, as you put yourself in relation to the industry should not be all this highly abstract worrying about the industry at large, but you and your art, your personal sphere. You get that sorted out and the rest will fall into place. But if you keep worrying about a future that may not happen or may never apply to you, you won't really have a chance at the present.
No, I think they have talent and skilled at what they do, however a team sometimes needs to communicate with an individual artist in order to get the assets just right, the more middlemen or things that get in the way of communication, the farther the team will be off from the art they need and the more time will be spent going back and forth getting it fixed.
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If you pay 10 times less then you are willing to make some compromises.
Not to mentiont that most of the customer base will not notice it anyways if you do the art "just right".
right on the money gauss and very eloquently put too! (as to be expected
If you pay 10 times less then you are willing to make some compromises.
Not to mentiont that most of the customer base will not notice it anyways if you do the art "just right".
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Dude, you've got to be joking, firstly, you're talking about compromising the art of games, at the very least they'd be bringing people onboard to get the 3d assets fixed properly so the animators could work the characters right or other tweaks to make the assets work better with a specific game. Secondly, "just right"?
Are you seriously agreeing with outsourcing game art on a game art forum?
Are you seriously agreeing with outsourcing game art on a game art forum?
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Yes i am, now burn me or something...
You sound like a person who has to make up some problems that would make the ideas you dont like unreasonable.
We go through life carrying all sorts of crap with us; that's just the human condition. Some of the burdens are actually good to have around and truly meaningful, but there are other burdens that we take upon ourselves that do no good, and we'd be better off without them.
I split the line between "concern," which I consider caring for things I should care about and can change, and "worry," which are all the things I can't control but somehow apply decision-making processes and attention and anxiety to anyway.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I really don't need any help coming up with stupid crap to worry about, I think human nature does that just fine. To wit:
Does she like me as much as I like her?
There. Quota reached. I get all anxious and my heart rate goes up for no reason just thinking about it, and I've already had serious girlfriends! What am I, still a teenager? Sheesh.
Humans can make their own worry just fine without outside intervention, we've been doing it so long as we've had our extra fiddly bits-style brains.
But no. On top of our natural supply, we have to pile on some of the most outrageous, unbelievable shit just to make ourselves miserable, and we've dedicated a highly developed news media for its dissemination. Thanks news media, for such gems as:
-All Our Kids Are Too Fucking Fat! (Scientists Ponder: Could it Be the 4 Liters of Coke Consumed Daily?)
-Everyone Will Speak Spanish In 5 Years (And Replace All Hamburgers With Tacos)!
-Your Plane Will Totally Fucking Explode (So Eyeball That Guy With the Beard)!
and who could forget
-Computer Meltdown Apocalypse Year 2000 Bug! GIT YER SHOTGUNS
No, I don't think ignorance or just stopping discussion is the answer, it clearly isn't. If anything, the answer is a work of retrieval, reclaiming our lives and our volitional spheres as our own, out from under piles of meaningless (yet debilitating) worry. Anyone in here watch Dateline or Nightline or whatever the hell those idiotic "news programs" are that are exclusively designed for outrageous fearmongering? That's what I'm talking about.
Excuse the discursive stylings, but what I'm saying is that yes, Oxy, I think it's very right for you to post GD topics on interesting issues that effect our industry, but don't cry wolf. I know the thread title is somewhat in jest, but it is sort of a running theme with your GD topic posts, isn't it? I may be something of an optimistic fatalist myself, but I believe strongly in free will or, err, "self-actualization," and I really do think that's important to getting anything done in a world of too much information. You choose how you "spin" the information on a personal level. Is it, "oh shit, they're going to take our jobs!" or is it "the face of the industry is changing--how might new opportunities present themselves?" for instance.
This may be my oldest drum but I'll keep beating it: how much time have you (you as in whichever polycounter is reading this) spent on GD posts, ranting about this or arguing about that, versus time spent drawing or painting or modeling or texturing, and then posting that to P&P? We keep coming back to this point for a reason!
You can worry or qualify yourself, with ifs and buts, right out of a job or a good portfolio, no problem. Guaranteed you can find enough to worry about until you can no longer do whatever it is you wanted to do before you started worrying about it.
I swear I'm not trying to pull some sort of motivational speaker bullshit here, but seriously folks. Start with thinking positive about your innate creative abilities, shared by ALL hu-mans, and move forward with your work. Don't hit reply, just grab the pencil or stylus or fire up your modeling program. Post the stuff and ask for feedback, progress reinforces itself. Depend on the people in your life that you know. Reassert a sense of balance and control over the things you can control, minimize the time you spend worrying about the things outside of your control (which is most of it), and just get working. And I'll promise I'll stop posting this silly speeches when I see 5 pimps out of you GD regulars for every brow-furrowing worry post in GD!
In terms of a factory work environment,at least my job it isnt,i work with lots of talented people and when a client gives us a project we get a good degree of creativity. Technical guidelines we have to adhere to but concepts,design,modeling and such we decide and create.
I dont see it as a problem really,if it wasnt for an outsourcing company id be still be stuck living in Houston wondering why i wasnt being hired,but since i arrived here ive jumped leaps and bounds in terms of ability due in large to the talented people i work with. So if it wasnt because of an outsourcing company id still be stuck doing shiton 3d jobs instead of living in Europe. And in 2 weeks my first shipped title is released and my current project is so damn excited i still get gitty about what im working on,never in a million years would i have dreamed about working on the game im currently working on. So instead of taking my job an outsourcing company actually gave me one.
Are you seriously agreeing with outsourcing game art on a game art forum?
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Lol, of course he is. Check his location!
...now accepting votes for Anuld for World Governator in 2012!
Outsourcing to the lowest bidder in not alway a good idea, and can end up costing you a lot more than just doing the work yourself. If the work is shoddy, and you need to make your art team re-do it all, this sucks. If you don't have time to re-do the work, and the quality of the content is completely intolerable, you may have to cut portions of the game, or even worse, the entire game itself.
Outsourcing can be bad. Especially when you are just looking for the lowest bid, and hire an inept team to do the work.
On the other hand, if you outsource to a good shop that can give you good content with a quick turnaround, they may save your ass. Games that otherwise would be too expensive to make, can actually be produced.
Now Oxy, when you talk of the whole factory production situation, there's no doubt that some outsourcing companies like this. But not all of them are. I am currently working for a small outsourcing company where we focus on high-quality assets. Our staff has dozens of triple A titles between them, and are a very experienced crew. A lot of times we are approached by developers who just aren't capable of doing certain aspects of their project. And I mean high-end aspects, in many cases.
They just can't afford to hire an entire team made up of experienced people who can produce high quality content at a very fast pace. So they hire us instead. By hiring us, they know that they will get the content done at a very high quality level, and it will be delivered on time. This means the game gets made on-budget, won't slip, and won't be cancelled due to art.
We aren't a low-bid shop. We are usually not the cheapest option when it comes to outsourcing. But quite often, you get what you pay for. We've had developers outsource to overseas companies, then end up coming back to us 6 months later, begging for us to bail them out of the penny-pinching hole that they've dug for themselves.
For games, especially with a more mature audience, quality matters a lot more than it does for Saturday morning cartoons aimed at 6 year olds. Especially with all of the next-gen requirements that are quickly becoming standards. Sloppiness becomes very obvious.
So, when you think outsourcing, don't always thing about a bunch of some evil art factory in China.
As an individual artist, looking for a job, outsourcing companies can seem like a scary thing. But consider that before outsourcing, companies were more prone to hire a team, produce the game, then fire everyone, leading to massive job instability. Now, rather than hiring as huge of a team, companies will tend to just hire people that they really want to keep, then outsource some of the content at a rate that they can afford. This may be overseas, or it may be to a domestic company.
What this means is there can be a bit more job stability for artists working for developers. And there are also more companies to work for, taking into account that there are various outsourcing companies that need contractors all of the time. For people starting out, getting hired by an outsourcing company can make breaking into the industry much easier. It used to be very difficult to get any type of game work if you did not have industry experience. Now, it's quite a bit easier.
Toomas, stop being asinine, I was just wanting you to elaborate on your previous points.
ps. we've been bit in the ass by cheap outsourcing
Most of the team members were good in one thing like modelling but we picked apps to learn related to what we do and thats all we did in feburary. One long workshop.
So every studio is different,luckly this one isnt a factory full of chimps strapped to chairs,thats the half truth,we aint strapped down.
Oxy you shouldnt worry too much about articles that,i read but i also believe in what i see,i read doom and gloom articles but i also see job postings all over. Like if your willing to go abroad Austrailian studios are looking for artists all over. Im sure with enough talent you could go and live there. But if it does happen,shit man enjoy the ride.
Damn well put Ryno, thanks for the wise words.
Toomas, stop being asinine, I was just wanting you to elaborate on your previous points.
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Ok sorry, i got the impression that you pretty much dug your head into the sand and started yelling "it cant be done.."
Anyways, small contracts with short deadline. If they cant deliver cut them out and find somebody else.
For small fixes you dont have to ask for revisions but an on-site tech can do them.
We outsource our character animations to a place down in Texas, they do pretty good work given the set backs our engine provides. There really is no interest where I am at, to send the work overseas. Actually, they would like to bring it back in-house at some point.
Hmm.. just by coincidence (I knew it was coming up but didnt know when). The (first?) Game outsourcing conference is this week.
Here is a overview of the keynote.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10476