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New article - females and the industry

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Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
Based on a conversation from here a long time ago

http://www.rsart.co.uk/games-for-girls/

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  • DeathKitten
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    DeathKitten polycounter lvl 18
    Thank you Rick smile.gif I really enjoyed your article and I'm happy to see that this isn't a 'forgotten' issue... I think I vaguely recall the post that you referred to wink.gif
    I agree that the Industry needs to get their collective heads out of their asses and realize that they are missing out on one of the biggest potential niches in the gaming market. As you‘ve stated, “We need more females in the industry, to push INTERESTING ideas forward.” yay!

    -DeathKitten =^..^=
  • Josh_Singh
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    Josh_Singh polycounter lvl 18
    like what? sex and the city online?
    im going to play devils advocate and say girl stuff doesnt make good games. Like what are these things that girls are into that will make such good games??
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    Games that are creative rather than destructive, but don't involve a lot of dull number crunching. I bet theres a lot of money to be made from a gardening game (Hell, I'd probably like a gardeing game too if it was well constructed). Perhaps a game where you can construct your own clothing for which you then sell. Is that something females would like or am I just following stereotypes? That probably highlights the vicious circle here I guess. We don't know what the ladies want so there aren't any games that really appeal to them which means we don't get any female employees which means we continue to not know what women want.

    Puzzle gameplay seems to be the popular thing from what I've seen but perhaps thats just because there aren't really any viable alternatives. Adventure games aimed at a -real- female audience would probably do very well if marketed in the right fashion.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    and say girl stuff doesnt make good games.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually...I think you'll find some of the best games ever made were designed for both genders. Everything from Pacman and Marble Madness to Katamari, The Sims, and Brain Age. My girlfriend is very excited about Spore.

    Of course, those aren't real games because they don't include big guns, crate filled dark hallways, large floppy tits, cheap whores, and shiny plastic trees...m i rite? laugh.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    Perhaps a game where you can construct your own clothing for which you then sell.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's called Second Life. And that segment of the game is huge. Some women rent their own servers from the sales they make of clothing alone. But I think guys in the industry are clueless as to what women want to play. It's not all about cooking, cleaning, and shopping....assholes.
  • SuperOstrich
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    SuperOstrich polycounter lvl 17
    Well, maybe not cooking and cleaning. But I dare you to find one woman who doesn't LOVE shopping. smile.gif
  • Xenobond
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    Xenobond polycounter lvl 18
    To add to that. Heres a few games my wife likes to play. It seems that alot of them involve having a certain developed style, and involves alot of customization and control of their environment. Simple controls are also something that she seems to go for.

    The Sims (she even felt bad when I killed myself making hamburgers on the grill)
    American McGee's Alice
    City of Heroes
    Animal Crossing (also, because you can't die)
    Super Mario Bros (She likes all of them, but not so much the 64 one)
    Conker's Bad Fur Day
  • DeathKitten
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    DeathKitten polycounter lvl 18
    Ok, I for one do not like shopping, I think it is a terrible waste of time and I would rather be doing nearly anything else. That being said, I also didn't like then Sims games as I felt they lacked any sort of purpose. I enjoy games with deep storylines, intricate character development, emotional aspects and ones that require me to use my brain as well as motor skills. Generic, repetitive fps games are the bane of the industry and should be shelved in favour of more classic type RPGs! And I don't mean mmos or fantasy repeats, think more along the lines of Thief, Fallout, The Bard's Tale and Arcanum, all wonderful examples of creative storylines and gameplay. But maybe that’s just my opinion smirk.gif

    -DeathKitten =^..^=
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    Go post those thoughts in the comments sections then smile.gif
  • flaagan
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    flaagan polycounter lvl 18
    I think the issue is less to do with "girl gamers" and more to do with the amount of creativity going into game design in general. Not to put down the FPS / action / combat genres, but all too often they don't offer any sort of challenge for the player's mind beyond jump puzzles and button matching / rearrangings. The issue shouldnt be as much a 'targeting a niche' as it should be starting with a solid design.

    I totally agree that more females should apply to the industry and get invovled in all levels of game development.
  • Penzer
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    Penzer polycounter lvl 17
    My girlfriend played a few games before we started dating. She really loved Sim City, Sims and Tony Hawk. After being with me she's come to LOVE Burnout, some of the xbox live arcade games and she's really looking forward to Viva Pinata. She also loved Nintendogs on my DS.

    I find he most popular games among girl gamers that I know are WoW, final fantasy and the Sims. Maybe it would help if more games came with a certain peripheral that Rez came with......
  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    While I agree that more females are needed, there is a push by some in the industry to try to force it. As far as I'm concerned, it's not gonna work that way.

    If guys try to make games that girls want to play almost all of the time those games will turn out to feel contrived, and the girls won't want to play them.

    Look at the games they do like, games designed just to be fun, not specifically for females. The Sims, WoW, Final Fantasy, Soul Reaver, etc...

    So the problem isn't so much as problem as a matter of time. As more of those games that do interest women come out, more women will gain interest in the industry. This is already happening. As more women gain interest in the industry, more will join it. This is already happening as well.

    So while I see the "problem", I also feel that the solution is more a matter of time than anything.

    Of course, I'd probably be in the minority with that point of view. :P

    Anyways, interesting artical rick, was a good read. smile.gif
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    If guys try to make games that girls want to play almost all of the time those games will turn out to feel contrived, and the girls won't want to play them.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    EXACTLY. Guys making games for girls, not guys and girls making games for guys and girls.
  • Wendy de Boer
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    Wendy de Boer interpolator
    [ QUOTE ]
    Perhaps a game where you can construct your own clothing for which you then sell. Is that something females would like or am I just following stereotypes? That probably highlights the vicious circle here I guess.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Personally I would steer away clear from a game like that, but then again I'm more into mindless killing games. crazy.gif

    That said, I still think that the best games ever made were the Gobliiins series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobliiins

    They were really silly puzzle adventures. They could get amazingly difficult at times, but you would get into their way of thinking after a while. The graphics had a really unique style and the animations were hilarious.
  • snemmy
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    snemmy polycounter lvl 18
    as a guy, i for one am tiring of testosterone driven kill fests with a story vague enough that it's a bi-line on the case and 'realistic' graphics. but ive never been a Blood Bullets Boobs Booyah! kinda guy anyway.
    feels like all game writers have taken a 'how to write the hollywood' way course.. no imagination or depth of character.(yeah that's a blanket statement, NYAAAH! tongue.gif)

    gender neutral mentally stimulating games with plot FTW!

    guys should just admit they have NO CLUE how a woman thinks. that's the first step to healing. tongue.gif
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    my girl likes age of empires ( she is begging me for age of mythology ahaha ), the sims and quake 3 , so i guess it depends on each girl :P

    still i found that article a very interesting reading rick !
  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    feels like all game writers have taken a 'how to write the hollywood' way course.. no imagination or depth of character.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    People say that stuff way too much, when the stories are getting better and better.

    Play KotOR, Jade Empire, Oblivion, Dreamfall etc... compared to any of the old school rpgs and adventure games the stories and writing have come a very long way.

    There are games and companies out there making great plot based games, they just get ignored when people feel the need to bitch about the state of the industry. :P
  • Marine
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    Marine polycounter lvl 18
    is it a coincedence that most of the "games my friend/girlfriend/wife plays" make use of bright colours and stylised art?
  • ChaosEidolon
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    ChaosEidolon polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]

    That said, I still think that the best games ever made were the Gobliiins series

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My god! someone else remembers these?! I was just the other day trying to remember the name of the series. Yeah, I loved those, played them for hours. Man...that takes me back.
    Sometimes i feel like, now that games have become big buissiness, you have too much over-analysis going on over "what will sell", and right now games that cater to girls arent in their paradigm. FPS games are...*sigh*

    I miss the days when RTS games were the state of the art
  • Mark Dygert
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    Funny thing is I work for Her Interactive. 50-60% of our staff is female so my slant on this rant is a bit skewed.

    I'm kind of tired of this male vs female games rant everyone gets stuck on. I look at it more of a "drunken frat brat game" Vs "a game with a good story or compelling game play". I guess I have to lump myself into the girly side of this argument because I would like to see more games focus on game play story and character development.

    I don't think guy dominated studios need to focus on making games for girls, most of the time they screw it up when they do. They need to focus on games that the non drunken frat brat would want to play if they where not into FPS or sports. It doesn't need to be pink puppies and pop rocks to get girls interested. No one has to run out and buy lipstick and pom-poms to get into the female physique.

    My wife loves Zombies and games that are creepy with a hint of danger. She also loves fighting games but groans at the big tits and thongs. She also loves old school platformers. I really believe that everyone at some point will grow tired of shallow stories and strong graphics. The next innovation will need be in story telling not pixel pipelines pumping whores and gore.

    So to address the issue of getting more females in the industry, I think we need to drop the idea that we need to start catering to females and instead deepen the games we make in a way that they start catering to a wider crowd not just the drunken frat brat. If you build it right, people will play it, if you're lucky you will not only pick up the female players but the rest of the male market that doesn't like the current selection of games.


    Edit:
    I think this might be relevant to the subject:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/14209111/002-5715246-5382444
    I work with Mari Tokuda and I think she fills the roll of common girl gamer. Her likes with games falls pretty much in line with my wife and most "female gamers" I have met with the exception of the frag dolls, they're just nuts. But then anyone that says they like Moonbase commander without me forcing them to play it first is immediately big in my book.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    52% of gaming public in japan is female

    Loads of females in the industry too. I know more female 3d modellers than male.

    This only appears to be a problem in europe and america.
  • Thegodzero
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    Thegodzero polycounter lvl 18
    My GF loves zelda games but likes the more realistic looking ones vs the cel shaded one. She can kick my ass at any fighting game with out trying. Mostly she likes games that let her play around in a fantasy world where she has a reason to be there and something she has to do. So far from showing her shots of morowind and oblivion she thinks they look like crap. I agree, they have as much style as a kid that shops at the gap, so lack any visual intrest other than trying to look real.

    But to say that all women love playing fighting games and rpgs would be crap as just us guys we all have are personal tastes.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]


    That said, I still think that the best games ever made were the Gobliiins series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobliiins

    They were really silly puzzle adventures. They could get amazingly difficult at times, but you would get into their way of thinking after a while. The graphics had a really unique style and the animations were hilarious.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    most amiga games were awesome. I often came home to find my mum playing Stunt Car Racer.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    how about a typical female game where they dump you after gaining your trust:)
  • Paul Jaquays
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    Paul Jaquays polycounter lvl 18
    How about this ... we don't try to make games that we think will appeal to women and we just make games that anyone can enjoy playing. In the process we tone down our juvenile male fascinations (like gross-out graphics and erotic-fantasy female characters) and concentrate on making our visuals high quality.

    Then, we make an effort to encourage women who seem to have an intense in game making to actually apply for game making jobs. Of course, all of us male game makers are going to have to make an effort to treat women game developers as if they were guy developers.
  • Luxury
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    Luxury polycounter lvl 18
    The problem that I have always encountered is that females will not 'initiate' video game playing. If there is game playing going on, they will become somewhat attentative and or join in. But they will never turn on the console itself. For example: I bought my ex Animal Crossing after she showed some interest in it at E3 one year. She loved the game, but she never turned it on. I would turn it on and play for a bit, and she would get jealous and make me quit so she could play in her town. She would play for hours, but if I hadn't turned it on in the first place - then she absolutely would not have. She would have watched TV or gone shopping.

    This is of course if females even HAVE a console. Most don't. That $300-400 for a console = 10 articles of clothing.
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    Just rambling...

    While trying to avoid comparing apples to oranges, it seems like the movie (passive entertainment) industry has caught on to something for action movies - give women something to identify with and they're going to like it a whole lot more. Hey there's a concept! In recent memory movies like Underworld 1/2, Ultraviolet etc. have heavily empowered female characters which I've noticed that my female friends and family are really eating it up. Me - not so much. I appreciated them from a CG and violence standpoint but they just didn't do much for me story-wise. Movies like Van Helsing appeals strongly to males, not so much for females - heavy on the violence and sex object properties, light on romance.

    What I'm getting to is why try to make gender-neuter games that may have some appeal to both genders but strong appeal to none, when you could make gender-specific games with strong appeal to the target demographic? Maybe an RPG where the story is different depending on your character (m/f) selection. I'm sure someone out there might find that offensive in this age of PC-ness but the bottom line is that men and women are different and we like different things. I'd sooner take a nap than watch Sex And The City (it would put me to sleep anyway so same difference) To me, The Sims was novel for about 30 minutes, then I was over it. Women play that game for hours on end, day after day. We're two different species.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    I agree -we shouldn't try to cater towards female gamers as a marketing strategy -that will fail.

    What we need are games that will appeal to both sexes, and to do this we need to have a more balanced ratio of males to females in the workplace.
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    Great article BTW Rick. I agree about the part that we don't need more "pink" games, I disagree about being gender neutral though. I think someone needs to have the balls to say "Ok team we're making a new game - for women. Say hello to your new female game design team". If one really cool high-budget game was released designed completely for women, I think it would help get the ball rolling for more. There's gold in them there brassieres!
  • Tulkamir
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    Tulkamir polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    But then anyone that says they like Moonbase commander without me forcing them to play it first is immediately big in my book.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Haha, that game was so awesome! Me and a friend picked it up for damn cheap when it first came out and got a hell of a lot of damn fun play time out of it. smile.gif
  • snemmy
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    snemmy polycounter lvl 18
    Tulk:
    yes ive tried a few plot based games. heck, my most played games over the past 10 years are the Final Fantasy series (7,8,9,X,11,Tactics, Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2), Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid series.

    played KOTOR until i became a Jedi and cheated the rest of the way. while it had a good plot, the pacing was terrible. fight 5 minutes, stifling choose your path Q&A the rest of the way. listening to characters talk about their past for an hour is not plot. VO was good but didnt feel natural to me, even the prequels had better acting at times. do something evil and end up getting bitched at by all the good characters. overall i felt i was being talked AT and not talked TO. i didnt *care about any of the characters or what happened to them.

    tried Morrowind on several occasions. really did not like it. from the avatar face selections to the way combat worked.

    and quite honestly, for the past few years and currently, money has been a very limiting factor in my game playing. i dont own a console for myself. all the systems i play on were here at my parents, 100 miles from where i was living/working. xbox never appealed to me, gamecube died, and working at WalMart killed desire to do much of anything after work.

    i'll just say i have a grudge against 'blockbuster' 'industry changing' games that are little more than graphical engine demos and have plots that would fill 2 pages with a large font and only merit attention from the game that originally spawned their namesake.

    enough of my rambling, that's not what this thread is about(?).
  • Em.
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    Em. polycounter lvl 17
    I guess I'm the exception to the female gamer/developer rules. There really isn't a genre that I stray away from, fps, rpg, sports, platformer, I like all of them.
    Like Paul Jaquays said, well-made games playable by all would be a better approach than designing just for women. There's too much emphasis on graphics right now and not enough on new and interesting ideas and game play. Don't get me wrong, I don't want stick figures made of poo with an amazing plot, but there seems to be a lack of compromise.

    It's just a fact that there aren't a lot of female gamers out there. I think that there are a lot more than there used to be, and the numbers continue to grow, but I also think every new generation of girls is more technologically aware as well. Most of the women I know(sadly) just aren't into games and would rather scrapbook, gossip, shop, etc. I don't think it's necessary to force development of a "girl friendly" game, as the types of women that aren't playing games right now, would likely never play at all. I guess you can go ahead and make the sex and the city and fashion designer games and whatnot, but I don't think they're going to draw in new female gamers.

    As far as women in the industry go, again like Paul Jaquays said, just treat us like the rest of the guys in the office. Maybe part of the reason that there aren't more women developers is still the whole male/female traditional role thing. It would be very difficult to break into the industry or be competitive while having children, a main reason my husband and I are holding off. Even if you end up with a working mother and a stay at home father, there's still pregnancy and maternity leave, not very game industry friendly. I am slowly noticing more female game artists, and I'm sure there will be more and more as computers are more readily available every year. I also never agree with hiring someone to fill a gender, race, etc. quota. I think it should be the person who is right for the job.

    OK, I'm done, I'm going to go play with some big titty'd zombie women having some hot entrail action while shopping for new pumps...
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    I had a bad experience with a girl gamer once. girl I worked with( texture artist) seemed ok. got on quite well with her at work. then we all went out off for a drink and as my habit is as i am quite a social /pub animal said to her . I will get this round in. she says to me 'I BUY MY OWN DRINKS'as if to say 'fuck off'.
    I thought wow, this is probably more a case of this pariticular companies attitiude, more than a male famale thing.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    This new article on Gamasutra seems to fit this topic as per what is needed game wise.... I would love to work on a game that was a corresponding highbrow like the "The English Patient" or "Remains of the Day"...

    http://gamasutra.com/features/20060807/adams_01.shtml
  • Em.
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    Em. polycounter lvl 17
    @Ruz - what a psycho hosebeast..who turns down free drinks?
    @OXYnary - I think it's a great idea to branch out and entertain unexisting genre's like that. Would take a lot to make it happen though, at least above an indie level.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
  • Michael Knubben
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    I don't believe stereotypical thinking is going to revolutionise the gaming industry, people.
    Do you really find that you are entirely different from the other gender, you yourself fitting into your own gender ust nice and squarely? It's one thing to talk about gender-traits (which can then be present in both), but guy- and girlgaming is a bit old hat, i should say.
    This might also be the ideal time to introduce the old nature versus nurture argument again.

    I don't agree with positive discrimination (a government having a set minimum of females, for instance) in theory, but i'll admit it can be usefull for industries which are lagging behind in equality.

    Ours is, admittedly, if we don't count marketing-departments.

    edit: err, as it turns out i agree with Paul Jaquays.
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