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Next gen art tests....80 hours of work?

polycounter lvl 19
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Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 19
I was talking to some people at work about this. When I was looking for a job a few weeks ago I got a few environment tests there were pretty intensive. Some were to model a city alley or block and texture it with next gen specs. I guess what I'm asking is should companies ask for that amount of work out of an art test?

I've seen character tests that take a month to finish. That just doesn't seem proper to ask of someone to me. So what is fair? For an environment I could see some props or a building facade. But for characters that seems much more difficult to determine the right amount of work.

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  • Malekyth
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    Malekyth polycounter lvl 18
    Whether it's fair or not, one must do what is asked of one, or one is not hired. It's up to you whether you wanna play ball, when the company has arranged for the ball to be slathered in syphillitic junkie semen. I might walk away, or spend the time working on a portfolio piece with those specs, which might allow me to forego the test next time.

    I think it'd be fair for a test requiring all stages of next-gen art (as opposed to just some cool high-poly models) to keep the subject matter small. Instead of asking applicants to create a city block, ask them to create a single building. That gets the idea across and doesn't turn anyone suicidal.
  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    I recently completed a next-gen art test for an environment artist position. I had 2 weeks to do the test, and I worked on it for about 18 hours a day for those 2 weeks. I had another art test from another company that sadly got neglected and I wasn't able to put a full 100% into that one.

    If you think the test is going to be 80 hours of work, then make all of them count. You only get once chance to blow them away with your skills, so every art test you should give it your absolute best.

    Sadly, I never got an email back from the 2nd company. However, I am working on my 2nd interview for the next-gen test, so hard work does pay off laugh.gif
  • Sean McBride
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    Sean McBride polycounter lvl 18
    Dang, thats crazy. The next gen test I did not to long ago asked me to put 20 hours into a torso and a head on a character. No texture, no low poly.
  • Thegodzero
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    Thegodzero polycounter lvl 18
    hmmmm lee, i think in your case that amount of work was overkill. I was given a week to do an art test for pandemic and took 3 days of it and submitted it. You only should put in as much time as you need to get it to the level of quality you see in that companys games.

    Sean that sounds about rite. Art tests show them your skill level, and your speed. So the faster the quality can be done in the better.
  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    well.....since it was my first next-gen art test, i used the time to experiment with different techniques wink.gif.
  • PaK
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    PaK polycounter lvl 18
    I think an alleyway is more than acceptable for an art test. I think it takes more effort to craft a believable next gen character than it does an alleyway.

    I did an alleyway for my portfolio. 2.5 days of work, more than 8 hrs a day.

    *Edit*

    They get about 100 requests a week for these damn tests and spam them to tons of applicants, at least TRI did, I dunno what my company does.

    If it's a next-gen test be sure to put most of your time in the lighting....cuz that's what makes or breaks next gen scenes. Spec, normal, diffuse are all effected by it. I craft my textures half-way before I start my lighting, then I know where to punch my textures.

    -R
  • Valandar
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    Valandar polycounter lvl 18
    I disagree, PaK. I tried making a street scene once, and gave up, because it looked utterly horrific.

    My humanlike figs may be somewhat cartooney (see my 'Dragonman' post down in Pimping to see what I mean), but that streetscene just looked utterly HORRID.

    For me, figures are easier than terrain or props. It's just a matter of style, like with drawing.

    Meanwhile, I've been thinking about trying that Art Test online someone posted a week or so ago...
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    a street scene isnt too bad. I would rather do that instead of a character because theres lots more people who focus on characters so statisticlly your chances of passing the test are lower and if you have no experience you really have to blow them away to make an impression.
  • Cthogua
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    Cthogua polycounter lvl 18
    I have a question, since I just recently completed a very vague "art test." How much of this is to impress and how much is to establish that you can do the work that is in you portfolio and can work within professional deadlines? It seems like if you get to the stage of the art test, someone was already at least mildly impressed by your portfolio. Obviously they want to see quality, and probably better than what is in that company's current games, since if your playing it, its old news anyway. However the Art Director I was talking to seemed to be more interested in me keeping track of how much time I spent on each stage (model, UV, texture), than whether or not I made some super-neato-fantastic thing
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    Well art test are also to weed out fakes,unfortunatly i have heard stories of people who have stolen 3d art used it as their own,landed a job and when they arrived to the employers delight they find out that person is a fraud.
  • sledgy
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    sledgy polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    ...when the company has arranged for the ball to be slathered in syphillitic junkie semen.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You have such a masterful way with words laugh.gif
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    80 hours a week?!?! Maybe two weeks. Well...11.5 hours a day over a 7 day stretch isn't so bad...unless you already have a job. I figure, they expect you to work quickly complete the task at the expected quality within a shorter period of time. Which is better for you and the studio.

    I hear rumors. What are the chances of companies using these intensive art tests as free methods of outsourcing for additional content? They accept the test, but don't hire the artists.
  • Thegodzero
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    Thegodzero polycounter lvl 18
    ely, dont worry about that. Companys can't accept your art test and then use it in a game with out your concent as you still own it. Not to mention the reason they normaly dont hire a person is because the art test isnt good enough. So why would they put bad art in their game?
  • PaK
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    PaK polycounter lvl 18
    ely: I undersdtand your concern, but it would take alot've time to massage art not made for an engine 'into' that engine. Most people who do art tests aren't industry vets so chances are they will miss all the piddly little things that makes runtime art workable on the target platforms.

    Any studio silly enough to try this method has never made a successful game before.


    [ QUOTE ]
    How much of this is to impress and how much is to establish that you can do the work that is in you portfolio and can work within professional deadlines?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have seen from an inside perspective how art tests are used, and i've also done them myself. Sometimes they screen with the portfiolio to decide if they will request an art test. In this case it's to see if 'you' made the portfolio, to guage time, and to see if you can fit the style.

    The Upside:
    -You can target all your effort into one task.

    -You have a excellent chance of getting the art test in front of a hiring manager. Exposure to the hiring manager is key.

    -You don't have to be a concept artist for many art tests. You will be tested on the job you will be doing. Most portfolio samples suffer from poor concepts and are out of the running before they even start.

    The Downside:
    Art tests are often used by lazy or inept hiring managers who want to even the playing field because they can't judge a portfolio. You'll know this is the case when 18 polycounters are doing the same art test, or if they will refuse a submission wiothout the completion of an art test before anyone even see's your resume.

    -Often art test specs and guidelines are poorly crafted. I have seen quiet a few that had too many variables and offered too much freedom.

    -Art tests sometiems serve as the 'only' measurement of an applicants skillset; which I think is unfairly biased and puts too much importance on one sample. Portfolio's aren't given as much weight as the applicants portfolio because of the system-spacific nature of the test.

    When I run a studio I won't issue art tests.

    -R
  • rooster
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    rooster mod
    nope they can have a clause somewhere that states if you submit the work then you waive copyright ownership, or something to that effect. I've not seen it directly but have heard rumours of such a thing. The point is they use the good tests but just don't hire anyone, at all.

    edit: I was replying to tgz btw when pak replied before me
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    re: it seemed more important how fast you were than how impressive our stuff is: that's production reality. the majority of staff doesn't need to be super-good or have a very distinctive style, they need to be good enough to fit into the team and to be able to adapt to the visual standard of the project.

    and in production, it's more important how reliable you are and that you don't screw milestones and can manage your time well than to have that extra magic in your work that stands out e.g. in online galleries.
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    We give people tough art tests where we hand them a concept and ask them to articulate to the highest level of detail they can within 2 weeks.

    Mostly we are finding out how driven then are to work for us, how smart they can work, how fast they can work and what they prioritise first.

    It isn't expected that they will match the quality of our inhouse efforts on the same concept because we spent more than 2weeks on it, but it tells us a lot that a resume will not.

    I often feel that it's an unfair test and I wonder how I would fare if I had to go through our hiring process and I find it easy to get cynical.
    Then, every now and then when someone aces our test and surprises us all and gets hired and I get to know them and respect their abilities and be glad of the chance I have to learn from them, I consider again that there's some worth to setting the bar so high.

    r.
  • rooster
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    rooster mod
    it doesn't seem too bad if your sitting at home unemployed twiddling your thumbs, but if your trying to switch jobs and still have full time work it seems pretty unfairly biased against those people
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    thankfully i never had to do one of those...

    just wondering, are you at least allowed to put a rejected art test into your portfolio afterwards?
    not to sound overly materialistic, but if it's a huge test - is there a possibility to talk about the job conditions (money!! and the rest, of course) before wasting weeks of your life, just to find out that theres no way in hell you would accept to work at that place?
  • Jeff Parrott
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    Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 19
    Yeah, I think rooster is on to something. Fair would be a 80 test if there are sitting at home. But if they are working in 3d for 40+ hours a week and have to do an 80 hour test that's just too much. But I guess the arguement would be, well if they don't want to do the test they can stay in thier current job. But, I don't really think that's a fair arguement. I'm just curious about next gen character test. Cause a high res version of a full character seems like it could take weeks. So what would be be fair for a character test then?
  • b1ll
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    b1ll polycounter lvl 18
    If the company is realy interested in you, they will understand if you explain to them that u already work 40h a week. Everybody need to pay bills.
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    I spent 26 hours on my character test for NS, which is on my website. At first I was a little skeptical of investing that much time, but it became a matter of whether I wanted the job or not. No one forced me to do it, they said, If you want to work here, then you will do this test. They don't give it out flippantly, so they had already looked at my portfolio, and were in favor of hiring me, they just wanted a fully normal mapped character, made in the style of their own game.

    If a startup with zero shipped titles, lower pay, and in a location I didn't want to move to, asked for a test of the same length, I'd tell them: "Sorry, I don't have time to invest in that right now, but keep my name on file,and if you decide my large portfolio of existing work is good enough for you to judge my abilities, then give me an email".

    In some cases it's an employers market, and in others an employees. You just have to decide if you think their expectations are reasonable, if not, don't do it. Pretty simple I think.

    I personally am wholly against a "no art test at all" policy, as I've seen way too many "old schoolers" get hired based solely on their longetivity, and their skills are nowhere near current for the sallaries they'd be pulling. If I ever ran a studio, you would not get hired without an art test of some sort, but I'd have varying levels of time requirements based on the person in question. I'd ask for a fairly elaborate test from someone with zero experience, and a much more reasonable one from more experienced vets.

    poop.gif
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    Asking about money before doing an art test will cause management to rule you out here under the assumption that you're more interested in the money than working here.

    We look for people that are looking to work at Epic, not just looking for a job.

    We understand people need to pay the bills but we won't help out with that, the test is very demanding, but unless people are prepared to put in the extra work, the assumption is that they are not of the Epic calibre and wouldn't fit in here.

    I don't write the rules here, I am aware of them though!

    r.
  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    are you at least allowed to put a rejected art test into your portfolio afterwards?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't know about the one I did, since it was based on their concept. I'd like to show it, I think it one of my better pieces smile.gif
  • skankerzero
    I would think a good 'next gen' character art test would be a character bust or torso.

    I mean, there's no real reason to see how they model the hips, if they model the shoulders and hands well.

    I'm against 'no art tests' as well. I mean, hell, we've all seen the people that have gotten jobs off of stolen portfolio pieces.

    Plus, there's no guarantee how fast and efficient a person is based solely off of the portfolio. He may have badass character models, but it could've taken him double the time it should have in a real work environment.

    Plus, most HR people will understand if you let them know that you work full time and may need the deadline extended a bit, though, be prepared for them to find someone else during that time.
  • b1ll
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    b1ll polycounter lvl 18
    My point wasnt askin for money ror, It was that When you have a full time job, and a family, Dont expect that person to poop that model in a short amount of time, even tho that person want the job realy bad, and will work for it. But there is limit.
  • Jeff Parrott
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    Jeff Parrott polycounter lvl 19
    Good point Skanker. Probably a bust would seem acceptable. Maybe even a mirrored bust? Poop I completely agree with you. I cannot stand places that do not require a test. An artist I used to work with refused to do them. It seems he had a lot of trouble landing something else. But he did because he had a lot of experience. And you're also right about a company sending out a mass test and asking someont to do it personally. If I had my way there would be a phone interview, test, then an onsite interview. The phone interview usually only takes 30 mins and it let's the person applying for the job that the company is at least some what considering them. To work 40-80 hours on a test where you've had no personal contact with someone at the company is a bit absurd to me.
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    b1ll: Sure, and as a family man I understand the demands upon time a family makes.
    That understanding is shared by the people in charge here also, but still, no real accomadation is made for the problem.

    One of the lads who got hired a while back had a little baby girl who was a handful of months old when he took on the art test while he had a fulltime job so he took a week off work, to make sure he had extra time to work on the test and he also worked very smart.

    It was a good example of working smart I guess!

    r.
  • b1ll
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    b1ll polycounter lvl 18
    ya, If u can take vacation thats a win for sure.
  • rooster
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    rooster mod
    and what if you already have something very similar to the art test in your portfolio? There should be exceptions to the rule is my point, or the rule aught to at least be flexible. Imagine crafting a portfolio piece with the intention of getting a job doing that kind of work, you make it to the standard of todays/tomorrows tech that would fit in well with the kind of companies you're applying to. If they turned round and said, nice- now do another one but different- that just seems counterproductive to me
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