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hows about a focused critique forum?

polycounter lvl 18
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John Warner polycounter lvl 18
this might be a waste of effort, but i was thinkin about it and figgure that it might be cool to create a forum for brutal, harsh, focused critique. where if you post your model there, people are aloud to spout the most ruthless brutal opinion.

often times i look for a critique from a friend only to be met with the old 2 compliment for ever 1 crit format. there's nothing wrong with wanting to show your work and get compliments and support, but some times i want to be so savagely critisized that i'm left with an opinion of my work as being absolute shit.

i know it's possible for people to have this level of judgement because i see it all the time at my workplace, only it's in conversations towards other people's work online smile.gif

anyway i notice that when someone wants to be beligerant and cruel, they can acctualy pick out every single artistic crit that's possible. it'd be nice to have a forum for people who just wanted to get TOTALY blasted.

whatya think? too much effort? pointless?

Replies

  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    Dunno, I think there's a fine line between 'brutal, savage criticism' and disrespect on the internet. As long as crits are kept respectful and actually mean something ( e.g 'its shit' is not a valid criticism! Neither is 'give up' ) and the person who posts knows and accepts what they're in for, I think it *might* serve a purpose.
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    hmm yah i do agree.. but i think the problem is that with a wide range of personalities, where everyone's sensitive about different things, a lot of people probably hold back because they're not sure what's socialy acceptable. quite frankly, i wouldn't mind sifting through comments like "it's shit, you're a loser, give up and die" if i can acctualy get some intellegent stuff. it would be, after all, your choise to post in that kind of forum.

    heh..it'd probably just provoke a bunch of flame wars... *sigh*
  • Asthane
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    Asthane polycounter lvl 18
    I think it could be an interesting experiment as long as, as Daz says, the critisism has a point, and everyone understands that posting in that forum forfeits your right to take issue with the comments made. Personally, the professional, sometimes harsh environment here is one of the reasons I keep comming back (Even if I may not like the comments I get at the time wink.gif)
  • Valandar
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    Valandar polycounter lvl 18
    There's also the problem that someone might post there with a model and get some rather strong critique... and then explode, because they just wanted people to say "Looks good, yay!"
  • Asthane
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    Asthane polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    There's also the problem that someone might post there with a model and get some rather strong critique... and then explode, because they just wanted people to say "Looks good, yay!"

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hence "...and everyone understands that posting in that forum forfeits your right to take issue with the comments made"

    Maybe we need a click-through disclaimer? laugh.gif
  • Valandar
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    Valandar polycounter lvl 18
    A click-through disclaimer aimed at BOTH people posting for critique, and the people making them, would be a VERY good idea. laugh.gif
  • Soccerman18
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    Soccerman18 polycounter lvl 18
    How does the pimping and previews section not already allow this? Most things posted there are wips and suggestions and critique is usually welcome, no matter how harsh or pleasant it may be.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    ... for example, you have me on bad days. Gauss on good days. Whos the ugly gonna be?
  • Weiser_Cain
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    Weiser_Cain polycounter lvl 18
    Just clearly mark the forum so I can stay clear away and won't be forced to hunt anyone down and rape them to death with wound up razor-wire.
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    How does the pimping and previews section not already allow this?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, in *theory* it does, but I suspect that Johns idea is to avoid craziness like this.
    The concept being that you specifically go to the harsh critique forum for exactly that, so any weird defensiveness wouldn't be warranted or tolerated. On that note, you might think I'm being hyprocritical now considering my impatience here
    but I stand by my sentiment that what was offered up to me in this instance wasn't constructive critique, it was merely 'give up'. Which is exactly why I think ground rules are important when discussing this idea. Critique can always be harsh but it should also always be useful and actually 'mean' and suggest something constructive.
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    yea... but most people want crits on their shit so is the pimping section gonna become a ghosttown... And if someone posts something crappy in the pimping section, am I not allowed to critique it? or should I just give em ass pats.

    Its not like the forum is overcrowded. if you want crits, ask for em. Besides, I dont need another section to be clicking through.

    I say leave it alone.
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    Thinking about it, I think you're probably right aesir. After posting a reel in P&P recently and trying to absorb the 'average' of everyones comments, I ended up with what I think is a much better reel than before I started. Apart from immaturity, there is no real reason why P&P shouldn't serve its purpose as is.
  • JKMakowka
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    JKMakowka polycounter lvl 18
    Yeah, just give up tongue.gif
  • b1ll
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    b1ll polycounter lvl 18
    I dont see the point anyway. I know people critic my comments always, being to harsh and Poo, But meh.
    Im honest and have a messy english, what can u expect. smile.gif

    and that focused critc forum sound to much like conceptporg.
    and we dont want that.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    I think it works fine as it is now.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    a forum for brutal, harsh, focused critique

    [/ QUOTE ]

    haven't you been reading the Pimping section? a few flaws that go against the community standard, and the person is slammed. unless that person happens to be female. you know, ladies. otherwise, stand back if he has an attitude problem. Polycount is harsh compared to other forums I've read. I'm usually hesistant to post anything I design. on the other hand, some people are full of themselves and nothing they say can be used as guidance.
  • Cubik
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    Cubik polycounter lvl 18
    Polycount is a pretty harsh place already. Which is great. You get honest crits. Even though the place seems to have mellowed out a bit...
    A new subforum would probably be seen as a way to vent on people and turn into an attack-forum rife with flamewars since everyone who holds back sees a chance to unleash all their shit on people. Could turn the observed (by you smile.gif compliments ratio 2:1 into a 2 hostile comment to every harsh and precise crit.

    I'm still not sure if this is a bad or a good idea. Would definatly need a disclaimer though. Leave your ego at the door, or some such.
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    Elysium - i dont think that the forum is even close to as harsh as people's acctual opinion. there are a few folks around here that don't censor themselves... but i'm talking about a forum for total and utter honesty.

    right now critiques come in the form of

    "it's my HUMBLE opinion that perhaps that shade of green isn't working well with that leg there.. but.. that's just me. good work for the most part. i'd change the green"

    it would be nice to hear (if the person really feels this way):

    "that green section looks like shit. it's totaly raping the feel of the entire piece. it's completely and utterly contradictory to color theory and it's just plain ugly."

    the artist can then chose weither or not he agrees with the coment, well aware that it's not nessisary to take it to heart, and move on. CLEAR signals.. person a makes something and asks "is this working" person b says "fuck no, no way in hell" person a gets a clear message smile.gif

    i guess i just get frustrated with watered down communication from my friends because they dont want to hurt me. doesn't anyone else feel this way?
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    I'd rather they were polite about it like you had in your first example... Its the same crit, just in one, the guy is being an asshole.
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    I totally agree! Whatever happened to the English language in that the word 'raping' needed to be used to stress a point?! Were all civilized folks here I thought. Im with aesir. You've effectively given the same critique with those comparitive statements. Only in the second one you're a wanker!
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    I'm with Aesir on that.

    I believe that the first example crit you give is actually ''right'', because it is clearly stated that it's an opinion expressed. On the other hand, the second is just plain wrong as it is written like an absolute truth/rule to follow, which never ever happens in anything art related. Even if it complies to color theory, a shade of green can still look like shit.

    In my humble opinion, a harsh forum would definately kill the already hard-to-demonstrate art sides of gamedev. Let us not become morons.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Haha, absolutely. You're not talking about adding a focused critique forum here, you're talking about adding a forum where people can just spout abuse in the name of character building or something.

    The people who already want to give focused critique, will give it already in the P&P forum.
    I always try to be polite when giving a crit, as Daz says using foul language and generally tearing someone a new one is just making you come off like an asshole.

    Why say "That looks like shit!" when you could say "That really doesn't look very good, I'm afraid." ?

    I think you just need a vent tongue.gif
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    I think some people are of the opinion that if they are giving a critique, the fact they are doing it to "help" the person gives them free license to be as condescending, and harsh as they feel like, in the name of "honesty". One thing you'll also have to learn in a studio is how to communicate well. It doesn't matter how much truth is in what you have to say, if the way you say it instantly raises a wall in the persons mind against whatever you are about to spout off. Especially if the person you are trying to convince is a superior.

    Giving critiques is an art form, and not everyone was born a Picasso. If you feel PnP isn't a succesful place for feedback, why don't you invest some of your own time John Warner, in making it more like something you'd like to see by giving more critiques yourself.

    poop.gif
  • Super
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    Super polycounter lvl 18
    Although I'm relatively new here, I sure as hell wouldn't come back if I got comments saying things were 'raping' my work - thats not to say I don't want honesty.

    What happened to being respectful and professional? Fair enough its only a forum but we can still be civil. One problem I see with posting things like the second 'critique', is that if a student is posting and you're getting that feedback from someone in the industry you're aiming to work in, it would pretty much destroy their confidence.

    If you think people are sugarcoating crits because they're close to you, maybe sign up under another alias or something...I dunno, I just don't see whats wrong with honest but respectful, its a hell of allot more inviting.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    it would be nice to hear (if the person really feels this way):

    "that green section looks like shit. it's totaly raping the feel of the entire piece. it's completely and utterly contradictory to color theory and it's just plain ugly."

    [/ QUOTE ]

    oh yeah, that's encouraging. posts like that are to be ignored when more professional help can be given. that's not focused or critical, it's immature. Because you're using harsh words, instead of a vocabulary of terms to explain your opinion.

    The only sugar coating I see is towards those who already have a line of fanboys. It's all about not breaking networks and burning bridges, because in the end, it's who you know. Tell them what's bad, but also tell them what's good. Focus on the bad and you're just being a prick.

    *steps off soapbox*
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Whats missing from the examples given are SOLUTIONS. Critiques dont do a bit of good when solution ideas aren't given along with the areas people find at fault.

    I could care less if someone says something on my work is "shit". As long as they give a good constructive* way to resolve the issue.

    *Constructive isnt saying things like: hopeless; talentless; go back to school; newb; seek another field".
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Exactly. Good call, oXYnary.
  • okkun
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    okkun polycounter lvl 18
    Ya, more overdraws
  • Valandar
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    Valandar polycounter lvl 18
    Actually, I've noticed that the middle of the road models, the ones that really need crits to improve to excellent, get the comments the least. Very low grade models get tons of "You need to do this" type statements, and in-fraggin-credible models get "Whoah! How'd you do that?" comments.

    But us mediocre peeps, who need it the most, get ignored except by maybe a handful of individuals. About the only section this does not apply to is the current Challenge forum, 'cuz everyone wants Polycount FOR TEH WIN. By the way, thanks MoP, Gauss, and many others!
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    okay, yes, you guys are right, the examples i gave are extremely poor.

    i'm just trying to illustrate the lack of censorship involved in expressing someone's true opinion. i KNOW my friends at work don't give me the same level of critique that they can give to people they don't like. i think there's a critique level that arises from beligerantly expressing yourself.

    anwyay yah, i agree with the posts, my examples were extremely poor. you'll notice that they dont have any solutions, and that's because i didn't spend 10 minutes thinking up a specific artistic example.

    just to clarify

    1. i'm not suggesting that this forum is broken in any way. i think that a lot of the stuff i've heard in P&P is awesome

    2. i'm not angry or upset, and this certainly wasn't ment as a vent

    i'm just speaking from my limited experience so far. i've watched people give critique to their friends, and i've watched people bash, WITH their friends, some unknown guy's art on the internet, when they're trying to sound smart. to be honest, the amount of stuff that they can acctualy pick out as being wrong is absolutely amazing. in the pathetic attempt to raise themselves above the level of the person they're judging, they acctualy come up with a massive list of brilliant art critiques that they themselves couldn't do.

    my examples are bad, i totaly admit. i was just trying to express the difference between those two levels, and as far as i can see, it has to do with some sort of censor that's being removed, which usualy involves taking on the belief that the art that your viewing is, in fact, shit.

    do you guys really critique your friends as hard as you'd critique some work that you just saw on the net? i try to, but i know that's not the case. i wasn't talking about an environment where people mean to be cruel, just one where there's no need to be polite, that's all.

    anyway i guess the main opinion is that this concept in it's self is offensive. that's cool, i just wanted to throw the idea out there...

    poop- this was not a judgement of any of you. i'm not speaking out of some sort of self-serving desire to better myself. it was just an idea.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    I try to crit everyone fairly. I do tend to be more harsh on people who are ignoring good, valid critique though - it's tough to tell what works with some people.

    Something you seem to be saying here is that more harsh or more blunt critique is better for fault-finding because it cuts through all of the politics you have to present if you were critiquing your friends? I disagree - I say that you can critique to the same level of detail, it just takes more effort to do it to someone you have a good relationship with.
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    MoP - that's pretty cool.. but do you think that more often than not, people will stop short because they know it's their friend?

    hmm you know, i guess it's not going to make any difference. if a person is the type of person who would censor himself, and is talking to his friend in a frame, he's probably still going to censor himself..
  • CMB
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    CMB polycounter lvl 18
    Why not a smily or a tag on the threads name to stress that you need assistance and harsh critiques?
    Another forum catagory or sub catagory too put works in gets too confusing.
  • Asthane
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    Asthane polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Why not a smily or a tag on the threads name to stress that you need assistance and harsh critiques?
    Another forum catagory or sub catagory too put works in gets too confusing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sounds good to me.

    FlameMe.jpg
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    All I want is that people tell you when your model is crap and you should really start over. Sometimes threads in P&P go without replies because the model posted is so bad it should be thrown away but noone wants to say that so the author is left wondering. Sometimes I feel that people really want to tell me that I should throw something away but etiquette prevents them from saying that out loud.

    That'd also provide the knowledge that when noone says "throw it away" that they aren't secretly thinking it, either.
  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    Don't feel bad. No one crits me at all. lol,
  • Valandar
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    Valandar polycounter lvl 18
    Heh. I got a few critiques, especially on the current Challenge.
  • ebagg
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    ebagg polycounter lvl 17
    [ QUOTE ]
    Actually, I've noticed that the middle of the road models, the ones that really need crits to improve to excellent, get the comments the least. Very low grade models get tons of "You need to do this" type statements, and in-fraggin-credible models get "Whoah! How'd you do that?" comments.

    But us mediocre peeps, who need it the most, get ignored except by maybe a handful of individuals. About the only section this does not apply to is the current Challenge forum, 'cuz everyone wants Polycount FOR TEH WIN. By the way, thanks MoP, Gauss, and many others!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Quoted for truth. I've seen topics (sometimes of mine) where a decent model gets very few crits, whereas low end beginners get a TON of crits. I would think it would work the other way around, a person who is a budding artist would receive shorter critiques, that have a broader idea of what needs to be done for the person to improve, whereas a person with a decent model could receive much more focused critiques on specific parts of the art that need to be honed.

    I don't know whether this would be insulting to some, but I would maybe recommend splitting the P&P into two sections, one where the pros post their work, and one where those of us working up towards the industry can show our work. Maybe thats segregating things a tad much, but it would be interesting to see what results would occur out of it.
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    One way to improve getting critiques is to try to guide it. Ask for specifics on things you want feedback on. Also, be known for someone who gives good critiques, and people will want to help out in return. Find some artists you admire on ICQ/MSN/AIM and ask them point blank about specific things you need feedback on.

    I know that Gauss, Mop, Daz, are in the top 10 post counts on the board and give very serious and consistant critiques in the PnP section. If you desire a better feedback system, contribute to it yourself, and that will encourage others to be a part of that effort as well.

    I've noticed a lot of times, people who complain about not getting enough critiques on their work, contribute very little feedback towards others. It's kind of like always wanting to take, and never giving back in return. Sometimes the giving comes before the recieving.

    poop.gif
  • Asthane
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    Asthane polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I've seen topics (sometimes of mine) where a decent model gets very few crits, whereas low end beginners get a TON of crits. I would think it would work the other way around, a person who is a budding artist would receive shorter critiques, that have a broader idea of what needs to be done for the person to improve, whereas a person with a decent model could receive much more focused critiques on specific parts of the art that need to be honed.

    I don't know whether this would be insulting to some, but I would maybe recommend splitting the P&P into two sections, one where the pros post their work, and one where those of us working up towards the industry can show our work. Maybe thats segregating things a tad much, but it would be interesting to see what results would occur out of it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Nah, people who are just starting out are easy to crit. I find the real hard ones are people (like me) who have most of it down, and just need to push for that last 10% that makes people go 'cool!'. That last 10% isn't usually an issue of anatomy of clean cut design standards, it's just the ability to bring a piece together and make it 'click'.

    Oh, and the people who make those models? They usually talk like they know everything too tongue.giflaugh.gif
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    poop-- once again, i wasn't suggesting this to get more critiques on my own stuff. this was an idea for others, not to benifit myself. it was just an IDEA. i wasn't bashing the current system in place.
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    I've been a mod on a amateur intermediate art board for a long while and we have a rather harsh critique regime there, but it works well and people do submit more stuff than can be commented on.

    In generally we follow the good bad good sandwich, but also point to resources, such as the Loomis books online for places people can learn the figure.

    It does work, but the people that critiue really have to know their stuff, and on the other hand, there can't be a lot of beginner work either, as then there are errors too numerous tovadressvon one post, where 3 years of art school would be more helpfull.

    I'm just saying it can be done, but it takes some structure, and some "training' of the reviewers.

    Scott
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Sorry John, are we critiquing your ideas too harshly here? laugh.gif
  • okkun
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    okkun polycounter lvl 18
    I know for a fact I'm a hard ass at work when I judge my co-workers work. The difference between work and the internet is I know who I'm talking to and in most cases I also know how they react to my critique.

    I think Daz posted a link to a thread that points to the problem. Most people want to avoid that so they go easy.
  • John Warner
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    John Warner polycounter lvl 18
    heh no, mop, i'm just trying to make sure that i'm not completely wasting everyone's time by having them miss understand me smile.gif

    anyway fair enough, i guess it takes work in order to recieve or give crit..
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    Scott, you need a new keyboard dude!
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    Fixed the post, but I just have to remember not to spill drinks on my keyboards

    Scott
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