hows about a focused critique forum?
polycounter lvl 18
this might be a waste of effort, but i was thinkin about it and figgure that it might be cool to create a forum for brutal, harsh, focused critique. where if you post your model there, people are aloud to spout the most ruthless brutal opinion.
often times i look for a critique from a friend only to be met with the old 2 compliment for ever 1 crit format. there's nothing wrong with wanting to show your work and get compliments and support, but some times i want to be so savagely critisized that i'm left with an opinion of my work as being absolute shit.
i know it's possible for people to have this level of judgement because i see it all the time at my workplace, only it's in conversations towards other people's work online
anyway i notice that when someone wants to be beligerant and cruel, they can acctualy pick out every single artistic crit that's possible. it'd be nice to have a forum for people who just wanted to get TOTALY blasted.
whatya think? too much effort? pointless?
often times i look for a critique from a friend only to be met with the old 2 compliment for ever 1 crit format. there's nothing wrong with wanting to show your work and get compliments and support, but some times i want to be so savagely critisized that i'm left with an opinion of my work as being absolute shit.
i know it's possible for people to have this level of judgement because i see it all the time at my workplace, only it's in conversations towards other people's work online
anyway i notice that when someone wants to be beligerant and cruel, they can acctualy pick out every single artistic crit that's possible. it'd be nice to have a forum for people who just wanted to get TOTALY blasted.
whatya think? too much effort? pointless?
Replies
heh..it'd probably just provoke a bunch of flame wars... *sigh*
There's also the problem that someone might post there with a model and get some rather strong critique... and then explode, because they just wanted people to say "Looks good, yay!"
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Hence "...and everyone understands that posting in that forum forfeits your right to take issue with the comments made"
Maybe we need a click-through disclaimer?
How does the pimping and previews section not already allow this?
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Well, in *theory* it does, but I suspect that Johns idea is to avoid craziness like this.
The concept being that you specifically go to the harsh critique forum for exactly that, so any weird defensiveness wouldn't be warranted or tolerated. On that note, you might think I'm being hyprocritical now considering my impatience here
but I stand by my sentiment that what was offered up to me in this instance wasn't constructive critique, it was merely 'give up'. Which is exactly why I think ground rules are important when discussing this idea. Critique can always be harsh but it should also always be useful and actually 'mean' and suggest something constructive.
Its not like the forum is overcrowded. if you want crits, ask for em. Besides, I dont need another section to be clicking through.
I say leave it alone.
Im honest and have a messy english, what can u expect.
and that focused critc forum sound to much like conceptporg.
and we dont want that.
a forum for brutal, harsh, focused critique
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haven't you been reading the Pimping section? a few flaws that go against the community standard, and the person is slammed. unless that person happens to be female. you know, ladies. otherwise, stand back if he has an attitude problem. Polycount is harsh compared to other forums I've read. I'm usually hesistant to post anything I design. on the other hand, some people are full of themselves and nothing they say can be used as guidance.
A new subforum would probably be seen as a way to vent on people and turn into an attack-forum rife with flamewars since everyone who holds back sees a chance to unleash all their shit on people. Could turn the observed (by you
I'm still not sure if this is a bad or a good idea. Would definatly need a disclaimer though. Leave your ego at the door, or some such.
right now critiques come in the form of
"it's my HUMBLE opinion that perhaps that shade of green isn't working well with that leg there.. but.. that's just me. good work for the most part. i'd change the green"
it would be nice to hear (if the person really feels this way):
"that green section looks like shit. it's totaly raping the feel of the entire piece. it's completely and utterly contradictory to color theory and it's just plain ugly."
the artist can then chose weither or not he agrees with the coment, well aware that it's not nessisary to take it to heart, and move on. CLEAR signals.. person a makes something and asks "is this working" person b says "fuck no, no way in hell" person a gets a clear message
i guess i just get frustrated with watered down communication from my friends because they dont want to hurt me. doesn't anyone else feel this way?
I believe that the first example crit you give is actually ''right'', because it is clearly stated that it's an opinion expressed. On the other hand, the second is just plain wrong as it is written like an absolute truth/rule to follow, which never ever happens in anything art related. Even if it complies to color theory, a shade of green can still look like shit.
In my humble opinion, a harsh forum would definately kill the already hard-to-demonstrate art sides of gamedev. Let us not become morons.
The people who already want to give focused critique, will give it already in the P&P forum.
I always try to be polite when giving a crit, as Daz says using foul language and generally tearing someone a new one is just making you come off like an asshole.
Why say "That looks like shit!" when you could say "That really doesn't look very good, I'm afraid." ?
I think you just need a vent
Giving critiques is an art form, and not everyone was born a Picasso. If you feel PnP isn't a succesful place for feedback, why don't you invest some of your own time John Warner, in making it more like something you'd like to see by giving more critiques yourself.
What happened to being respectful and professional? Fair enough its only a forum but we can still be civil. One problem I see with posting things like the second 'critique', is that if a student is posting and you're getting that feedback from someone in the industry you're aiming to work in, it would pretty much destroy their confidence.
If you think people are sugarcoating crits because they're close to you, maybe sign up under another alias or something...I dunno, I just don't see whats wrong with honest but respectful, its a hell of allot more inviting.
it would be nice to hear (if the person really feels this way):
"that green section looks like shit. it's totaly raping the feel of the entire piece. it's completely and utterly contradictory to color theory and it's just plain ugly."
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oh yeah, that's encouraging. posts like that are to be ignored when more professional help can be given. that's not focused or critical, it's immature. Because you're using harsh words, instead of a vocabulary of terms to explain your opinion.
The only sugar coating I see is towards those who already have a line of fanboys. It's all about not breaking networks and burning bridges, because in the end, it's who you know. Tell them what's bad, but also tell them what's good. Focus on the bad and you're just being a prick.
*steps off soapbox*
I could care less if someone says something on my work is "shit". As long as they give a good constructive* way to resolve the issue.
*Constructive isnt saying things like: hopeless; talentless; go back to school; newb; seek another field".
But us mediocre peeps, who need it the most, get ignored except by maybe a handful of individuals. About the only section this does not apply to is the current Challenge forum, 'cuz everyone wants Polycount FOR TEH WIN. By the way, thanks MoP, Gauss, and many others!
i'm just trying to illustrate the lack of censorship involved in expressing someone's true opinion. i KNOW my friends at work don't give me the same level of critique that they can give to people they don't like. i think there's a critique level that arises from beligerantly expressing yourself.
anwyay yah, i agree with the posts, my examples were extremely poor. you'll notice that they dont have any solutions, and that's because i didn't spend 10 minutes thinking up a specific artistic example.
just to clarify
1. i'm not suggesting that this forum is broken in any way. i think that a lot of the stuff i've heard in P&P is awesome
2. i'm not angry or upset, and this certainly wasn't ment as a vent
i'm just speaking from my limited experience so far. i've watched people give critique to their friends, and i've watched people bash, WITH their friends, some unknown guy's art on the internet, when they're trying to sound smart. to be honest, the amount of stuff that they can acctualy pick out as being wrong is absolutely amazing. in the pathetic attempt to raise themselves above the level of the person they're judging, they acctualy come up with a massive list of brilliant art critiques that they themselves couldn't do.
my examples are bad, i totaly admit. i was just trying to express the difference between those two levels, and as far as i can see, it has to do with some sort of censor that's being removed, which usualy involves taking on the belief that the art that your viewing is, in fact, shit.
do you guys really critique your friends as hard as you'd critique some work that you just saw on the net? i try to, but i know that's not the case. i wasn't talking about an environment where people mean to be cruel, just one where there's no need to be polite, that's all.
anyway i guess the main opinion is that this concept in it's self is offensive. that's cool, i just wanted to throw the idea out there...
poop- this was not a judgement of any of you. i'm not speaking out of some sort of self-serving desire to better myself. it was just an idea.
Something you seem to be saying here is that more harsh or more blunt critique is better for fault-finding because it cuts through all of the politics you have to present if you were critiquing your friends? I disagree - I say that you can critique to the same level of detail, it just takes more effort to do it to someone you have a good relationship with.
hmm you know, i guess it's not going to make any difference. if a person is the type of person who would censor himself, and is talking to his friend in a frame, he's probably still going to censor himself..
Another forum catagory or sub catagory too put works in gets too confusing.
Why not a smily or a tag on the threads name to stress that you need assistance and harsh critiques?
Another forum catagory or sub catagory too put works in gets too confusing.
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Sounds good to me.
That'd also provide the knowledge that when noone says "throw it away" that they aren't secretly thinking it, either.
Actually, I've noticed that the middle of the road models, the ones that really need crits to improve to excellent, get the comments the least. Very low grade models get tons of "You need to do this" type statements, and in-fraggin-credible models get "Whoah! How'd you do that?" comments.
But us mediocre peeps, who need it the most, get ignored except by maybe a handful of individuals. About the only section this does not apply to is the current Challenge forum, 'cuz everyone wants Polycount FOR TEH WIN. By the way, thanks MoP, Gauss, and many others!
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Quoted for truth. I've seen topics (sometimes of mine) where a decent model gets very few crits, whereas low end beginners get a TON of crits. I would think it would work the other way around, a person who is a budding artist would receive shorter critiques, that have a broader idea of what needs to be done for the person to improve, whereas a person with a decent model could receive much more focused critiques on specific parts of the art that need to be honed.
I don't know whether this would be insulting to some, but I would maybe recommend splitting the P&P into two sections, one where the pros post their work, and one where those of us working up towards the industry can show our work. Maybe thats segregating things a tad much, but it would be interesting to see what results would occur out of it.
I know that Gauss, Mop, Daz, are in the top 10 post counts on the board and give very serious and consistant critiques in the PnP section. If you desire a better feedback system, contribute to it yourself, and that will encourage others to be a part of that effort as well.
I've noticed a lot of times, people who complain about not getting enough critiques on their work, contribute very little feedback towards others. It's kind of like always wanting to take, and never giving back in return. Sometimes the giving comes before the recieving.
I've seen topics (sometimes of mine) where a decent model gets very few crits, whereas low end beginners get a TON of crits. I would think it would work the other way around, a person who is a budding artist would receive shorter critiques, that have a broader idea of what needs to be done for the person to improve, whereas a person with a decent model could receive much more focused critiques on specific parts of the art that need to be honed.
I don't know whether this would be insulting to some, but I would maybe recommend splitting the P&P into two sections, one where the pros post their work, and one where those of us working up towards the industry can show our work. Maybe thats segregating things a tad much, but it would be interesting to see what results would occur out of it.
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Nah, people who are just starting out are easy to crit. I find the real hard ones are people (like me) who have most of it down, and just need to push for that last 10% that makes people go 'cool!'. That last 10% isn't usually an issue of anatomy of clean cut design standards, it's just the ability to bring a piece together and make it 'click'.
Oh, and the people who make those models? They usually talk like they know everything too
In generally we follow the good bad good sandwich, but also point to resources, such as the Loomis books online for places people can learn the figure.
It does work, but the people that critiue really have to know their stuff, and on the other hand, there can't be a lot of beginner work either, as then there are errors too numerous tovadressvon one post, where 3 years of art school would be more helpfull.
I'm just saying it can be done, but it takes some structure, and some "training' of the reviewers.
Scott
I think Daz posted a link to a thread that points to the problem. Most people want to avoid that so they go easy.
anyway fair enough, i guess it takes work in order to recieve or give crit..
Scott