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what ever happened to plug in player models?

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malcolm polycount sponsor
Seems like all next gen shooters basically neglected, or made it a big hassle to drop new player models into the game without having to edit text files write shaders hack the FE or some other malarkey. Any reason why pipelines and workflows seem to be getting worse for the mod community when it comes to getting a new model in game? I just checked out the side bar of polycount.com and there is nothing there but quake3 and ut2k4 models so I would imagine some people feel the same. Or am I completely wrong and making custom models has just died down?

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  • Joshua Stubbles
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    Joshua Stubbles polycounter lvl 19
    I would think it's not JUST for mod communities. As developers are trying new things with normal mapping and whatnot, I'm sure that their own pipelines aren't that great (with obvious exceptions). This all trickles down to the mod teams. I'm sure that once studios settle into the new things, their pipelines will generally get much better again.
  • Rhinokey
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    Rhinokey polycounter lvl 18
    mostly i think its just a hassle, and it will get only more of a hassle as games advance both to provide support, and to actualy make the models,
  • Dio
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    Dio polycounter lvl 18
    I think alot of factors are playing into the phenom. Vass's point is certainly one, the advances put developers in new territory where working around unforeseen obstacles can create ad-hock systems not friendly to modding. The community itself is having to re-learn their craft to make current-gen mods. Production times have sky-rocketed lately. The depth of FPS's has evolved to such a point that in many games player models announce more than a team color, making a un-official player kin to cheating. And of course, the "Hot Coffee" thing probably has the legal departments re-thinking mod implications.

    A conspiracy theory could be that networks like Valve's Steam could eventually turn plugin players into a revenue stream. By starving the gaming community of user mods it wont seem so wrong when they start charging for such content.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    You make that sound like text editing is a new phenomenon, like we never had to edit skin, shader and qc files to get models working.
  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    and also alot of polycounters are just making models for their portfolio rather than a game, and everyone's trying to break into the industry

    NOT ME BECAUSE I AM A HOBBYIST AND MY MODELS ARE FOR GAMES \o/
  • Paul Jaquays
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    Paul Jaquays polycounter lvl 18
    Lot's of good points. My unified theory is:

    1. Demise of the unified gaming community. Once upon a time everybody played the same game. Think about it. Quake (in my mind) started the custom skin hobby. During clan play, folks wanted to play with clan skins that were custom to them. Quake 2 gave us the custom player model. I don't think that there has been a game since that has offered the flexibility of character modeling and animating. It was the first renaissance of PPM modding. And for a while, everyone played Quake 2. Q2 had a cool feature that would allow players to transfer models (and game levels) during the load phase of the game. Models and skins were shared freely. With the rise of Half Life (and its popular MP mods) and the UNREAL series, gamers began to diversify into camps and the focus on making cool game skins and models and seeing them in game began to diminish because not everyone was playing the same game.

    2. Game Hackers and Cheat Blocking. Quake 3 was almost designed with character modding in mind, but increased hacking of the game brought about increased security measures. No more sharing game content. Pure Servers became a way of life. It wasn't fun to "wear" a unique skin or model because no one else could see it (Visor everywhere you looked). If no one was wearing skins, fewer folks would make them.

    3. Increasing pipeline complexity. The bar one needs to jump to make game content keeps going up. Along with that, the complexity, cost, and number the tools kept going up. Making a set of red/blue skins for existing Q3A models for use in multiplayer games was more difficult than the same process for Q2. But with Q3TA, we made it so complex that I ended up writing a small manual to walk fan developers through the process. To my knowledge, only the team of the Brothers Grimm and Dark Horizon accomplished the task ... and I was working with them along the way getting code changed and writing the manual to accommodate them.

    3. Orders of Magnitude Complexity. If making shader scripted skins for Q3A and UT was complex, the pipeline to make Doom 3 skins and models was something else entirely. Fewer casual hobbyists had the skill, the time, and number of software tools needed to model, hi-rez normal model, skin, rig, and animate their own models. Some companies were all about helping modders. Others put up road blocks and discouraged employees from helping the fans. And I also understand that the MP game wasn't fun, so their was little call to make new content for a game no one played.

    4. The call of "The Show." Anyone good enough to make attractive game character models and skins at even the Q3A or UT level and figure out how to get them in game was probably good enough to work professionally in the game industry. Just look at how many PC forum members are pros who started out as fans. Many (but not all) that leave for the big show no longer have time or inclination to make game content for fun.

    5. Massive Mods vs. Individuality. Counterstrike and BattleField 1942 (and similar games). These were massive mods and often supported by large scale content replacement ... but they have little use for PPMs.

    6. Framerate is God. Why make cool looking model content when all the pro wannabees do is crank down game graphic quality to blurry, murky shit, and use whichever forced model gives them the best visibility of their opponents?

    7. Beware of the IP Police. Increasingly, the owners of Intellectual Property are enforcing their ownership rights ... even down to the creation of user made game content. Commercial hosts like FilePlanet become wary of hosting content identifiably based on someone else's trademarks and copyrights. This has a chilling effect on fans who can't wait to make yet another Dragonball Z character or game mod (and affects a lot of other fans who want to interpret their favorite movie, comic, and game characters in the FPS arena).

    Finally ... and ultimately ...

    8. MMORPGS, eater of souls. The time that many gamers used to invest in FPS clans has been supplanted by MMORPG clans and guilds. Guild or clan identity is created within the game, using its tools. There is no need for and no process for creating unique PPMs to use in City of Heroes, EverQuest, or WOW. So no one is making content because they're all leveling up, or fighting PvP, or going on quests to get cool stuff.
  • JKMakowka
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    JKMakowka polycounter lvl 18
    Ok, Paul summed it up perfectly wink.gif

    Now on to the next discussion why there arn't many custom made maps made & played like it was in the 'old days' tongue.gif
  • Mark Dygert
    I have to echo Paul's #8 as well. I know quite a few people who have switched to MMO's instead of FPS's. Mostly because of cheats and how easy it is to hack FPS's. When someone cheats in an MMO it throws off the economy and it is harder to tell who did it. When someone cheats in an FPS it craps on everyone’s good time, and you know who the 1337 d00d's are almost right away. BUT there is no way to get rid of them unless you run the server.

    Also with college students doing meth to get ahead academically it isn't too hard to imagine their "better grades thru meth" plan spilling over into thier gaming time. There are people I have seen at LANs that are running way too fast and they have the classic signs of meth abuse. At least when a meth addict plays an MMO the worst they can do is be an asshat that gets ignored.

    Cheats also lead to the sweet spot of a game release. Right after a game releases is the most likely time to play it as intended, with little fear of cheats. You know after a week or two it will change and the cheats will be out. Everyone that doesn't cheat, looks to a different game or a new patch to get away from the cheats. This also keeps people moving from game to game and makes it hard to build a community. Unless your community is outside of the games you pretty much don't have one.

    Given the short lives games have in the spot light, and the LONG dev time it takes to figure out, make and release good custom content, it's over before it started.


  • jzero
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    jzero polycounter lvl 18
    Vig, did I just read that you're seeing methamphetamine abuse in gaming? shocked.gif

    I can't imagine a worse undermining of the basic intent of game play. Well, maybe the delusion that meth could help your grades could be worse. Nothing like a little hyperactivity and hallucination to undermine your academic talents.

    /jzero
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    With Q3, UT2k3, UT2k4, FarCry, Battlefield1942, Battlefield2...and so on...etc. One thing has stood in my way for creating custom player models. Max. I'm not willing to download a copy of it, or pay $3500 for software just to modify a $30 game character. Gmax was retarded. I'm not willing to learn Blender. Now I'm happy that XSI supports UT2k4. But how it handles new characters is a bit strange, unless it's part of a mod. Modifying Q3 is easy with Milkshape, but now that engine is collecting dust.
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    KDR_11k, the point is editing text files is not an improvement, pipelines are supposed to be getting more user friendly not less. When a new fps comes out I always look at the sdk only to be disappointed again at how archaic the pipe and workflow is to get content in the game.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Why are pipelines supposed to become more userfriendly? Unless the foundation is kept around like forever (e.g. Unreal Engine) there's no reason to spend that much time developing WYSIWYG editors for everything (especially since deadlines are already tight enough to require unpaid overtime, fitting a few weeks in there just so the tools are WYSIWYG is really too much). The modders can learn and the only people who absolutely need to understand it are the inhouse guys and writing these tex files comes naturally after doing it three or four times.
  • BRUTICUS(CW)
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    BRUTICUS(CW) polycounter lvl 18
    damn this place is HERE because of PPMs and I really miss those days. Id love for this to start again with Quake 4. However it sounds as if we need coders to fill in the gaps for the artistsapparantly.

    Im not sure how difficult it is to make a PPM for Quake 4 but it just seems it would be fitting for this to be THE GAME for a comeback of PPMs. Considering it is the continuation of THE GAME that inspired the creation of this site. (Q2=Q2PMP / Q4=Polycount?)

    C'mon, someone must know some CODERS.
  • BRUTICUS(CW)
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    BRUTICUS(CW) polycounter lvl 18
    whatever happened to Phillip Martin, Q2 Modeller, NPherno. Guys like this made Q2 easy to make PPMs for.

    I want to see a MOD that supports PPMs and even a movement of sorts.

    If or hopefully, WHEN. Someone makes a Q4 mod similar to Lithium why not get them to add more player model functionality to it in exchange for art assetts for their mod perhaps.
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 18
    I can't wait for Spore. I think in game editors are the way of the future.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    whatever happened to ... NPherno.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I believe he's in Iraq.
  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    I thought Q4 supported custom PPMs natively? Doom3's the one that sucks for it.
  • Weiser_Cain
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    Weiser_Cain polycounter lvl 18
    Personally I'm keeping most of my stuff to myself and leaning more to telling stories. It's just tooo hard to do up a model that's just going to get trashed and doesn't stand up to the in-game models anyway.
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    KDR_11k, if your deadline is tight don't you think you would benefit from tools that are easy to use? Also if you want your art to look good the more iterations in the least amount of time means more productivity. I'm not sure why you're so stoked on text files I was just using that as an example of uneeded overhead in a pipe.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    Of course game developers don't need to allow custom player models to easily be made. That's their choice. Unless they advertise their game as "the easiest game to mod" and then wait several months to release anything resembling an SDK with no support for any tools other than the full version of Max. *cough cough FarCry cough*

    Sometimes it's best for the community to create it's own tools (BF42, FarCry, Q3) since the developers are too busy dealing with management.
  • PaK
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    PaK polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    ...why you're so stoked on text files I was just using that as an example of uneeded overhead in a pipe.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Aside from Unreal tech, every major engine I have worked with (besides the one I have at work) has a horible pipeline. there should be a 'test my shit in engine' button. easpecially when you have a huge amount of cash like valve and id.

    It's ridiculus.

    -R
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    malcolm: When you're adept at modifying the text files it's not any slower (perhaps even faster) than using a graphical editor.

    PaK: I'm not using a major package but isn't it pretty much "save to MD5, type reloadModels or testModel" in Doom 3?
  • SkullboX
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    SkullboX polycounter lvl 18
    Well UT2003/4 were relatively popular games to mod, and it's not as if that's decades away. I think the main reason of the decline is the lack of ppm support that embraces the new technologies - though I agree with everything else Paul Jaquays said as well.

    I think we'll see a revival of PPMs, even if it's a fraction of what it used to be, with the coming of the new Unreal Tournament. Making models for UT2003 was easy as long as you used canned animation and didn't take all that long to learn the process either compared to quake3 for example.

    Last but not least working custom player models shouldn't be underestimated either. Game developers like seeing good game models, but they love game models that actually work in a game. Especially with the widespread use of the Unreal Engine, it's great to have something like that in your portfolio.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    By the way, does Q4 actually accept new models or do you have to replace old ones?
  • BRUTICUS(CW)
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    BRUTICUS(CW) polycounter lvl 18
    I hope so. Is there any resources on modding it now?
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Ask Vahl, he said he's working on a tutorial. I think he should be able to give you at least some rough information.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Go and look over in 2d/3d discussion. Raven have put up an awesome resource for creating mods, player models and animations.

    Judging by the quick skim read I gave it, animations are not restricted by any default player skeleton, and entirely new characters with their own animation sets can be added fairly easily. Go read!
  • Zergxes
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    Zergxes polycounter lvl 18
    Mmm Q4 tutorial. I think that's what's needed, a real a to b to c procedure where we can just follow the steps and get stuff into the game. At least, that's what a dolt like me needs.
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