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When will we learn?

Moz
Moz
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Moz polycounter lvl 18
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html

20 things gamers want from the seventh generation of game consoles.

[ QUOTE ]


In the desolate economic climate of post-apocalyptic 2006, I'm thinking that's going to be a lot of money. Now, it's true that at E3 Sony was boasting the Playstation 3 could crank out 1.8 TFLOPS, or 1.8 trillion FLOPS. If that many FLOPS were piled together they would fill the Grand Canyon, assuming each FLOP were the size of a muskrat. So what do gamers want from all that money and FLOP? Just ask them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Replies

  • iMag
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    iMag polycounter lvl 18
    That's actually a good article. makes quite a few good points in my opinion.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Yup, fun read.
    I think it was PCZone magazine ran an article on crates in FPS games a while back. Quake 2 lost on the "Time to First Visible Crate" test.
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    I agree with some of what he says, but he also forgets that they are VIDEO GAMES. Some games are more styled to be fake. That article should be called "20 Things Gamers Want From Next-Gen Total Immersion PhotoRealistic Games".

    Some of us actually like art style and gameplay over super-realism. Shit, if I could only jump a foot in Halo, and wouldn't be able to crouch before I hit the ground to avoid fall damage, that would ruin some of the fun, no matter how unrealistic it is.
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    In complete contrast, this ran round the office BS list as an example of how stupid and spoiled kids are today smile.gif

    r.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Ror: So, I should expect lots of nice high-poly normal-mapped crates in the new Unreal game, then? wink.gif
  • Marine
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    Marine polycounter lvl 19
    they don't call them crates any more, mop, now they are called "advanced containment technology, cubic variation"
  • JKim3
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    JKim3 polycounter lvl 18
    yeah, this was sent around work. does a patent really prevent mini-games during loading times?

    kinda reminds me of the "bad designer, no twinkie" articles over at gamasutra.

    twinkie 1
    twinkie 2
    twinkie 3
    twinkie 4
    twinkie 5
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    mOP: i ain't made any crates in U2, UT4EDE or UC2 and I ain't making any in UT7 smile.gif

    r.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    Excellent excellent excellent article...every single point made. The loading screens, objectifying women, consoles that don't focus on games, cheap rip-offs, that Madden guy, cut scenes, crappy AI...brilliant. Even the ghosts in Pacman atleast tried to corner you, and there was a spot to hide. Was there a point made about companies that have made the same game since 1999, just with a better coat of paint and few additional gameplay elements depending on the mods for creativity? I wouldn't assume most employers and employees will care much about this article as long as profits are being made. I miss the good ol days. frown.gif

    sonic: did you even read the article? you don't need photorealistic graphics to push immersion.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    though some of it I dont agree. He does make some good points that should be looked at versus called "BS" on our end.

    Example:
    [ QUOTE ]

    Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?

    [/ QUOTE ]
  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    I've made sort of similar statement on my lj awhile back saying the focus of graphics trying to get it to at least sell to the OOH GFX market hurts the polish on gameplay, compatibility, design and ideas. Everyone wants to please eyes than to pump the adrenaline and pleasure the thoughtful brain with fun.

    Everyone just wants money so damn soon, why can't they DNF their stuff that way we'll get innovative blockbusters when they're released! SMASHING IDEAS SON

    The same thing pretty much happened in the SNES/NES days. We've got sub-standard platformers like Mr. Nutz, Mohawk and headphone jack, Plok (but plok is badass frown.gif), Yogi Bear, etc, while some one of a kind games like Demon's Crest and Blaster Master have strong cult followings as they're original in gameplay, ideas and execution and barely have had any "following" games. Even after those, companies still cranked out half-assed platformers WHAT AM I SAYING, FORGET IT ITS LATE
  • m3rl1n
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    m3rl1n polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    though some of it I dont agree. He does make some good points that should be looked at versus called "BS" on our end.

    Example:
    [ QUOTE ]

    Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What’s wrong with fantasy? Did hell open up and spew forth the spawn of Satin recently? Has the “One Ring” been found? If not then why is it so bad to want fantasy woman in a fantasy game?

    I thought I played games because they weren’t real, because it’s not something I’m likely to experience. If I wanted to see a plain woman, or a fat woman, or an ugly woman I’d go outside (that's not meant as an insult, it's just kind of the way it is - I'm no movie star either).

    And when did the average guy get a six pack, perfect pecs and a toned body? Yet I hear nothing of that.

    Movies - same thing.

    Anyway, someone posted this on another forum I visit and this was my reserved take on it:

    A lot of what he complains about are necessary design/production choices and decisions.

    - Poor AI? Not enough money to hire additional AI/better AI programmers.
    - Hand of God? Not enough time/money to fill in all the blanks and/or not worth the time/money.
    - Objectified Woman? Mass market appeal to primary demographic/not enough female gamers to make it worth projecting specifically to female demographic.
    - New Genres? Risky.
    - Adult Games? Risky unless they are ONLY adult games, it’s not worth being close out of major markets for some tits and ass.
    - Better voiceovers? Again, more money.

    On and on.

    Unfortunately - for the most part - there are reasons why things like this happen. Simply put, most of the time, it’s about money and using it as wisely as possible.

    I’m not saying the concerns aren’t valid, they just aren’t real helpful.

    Many of the points near the end are solid though.
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    Jesus talk about stating the obvious. He could have just as easily picked on any other modern mainstream cultural phenomenon such as Hollywood blockbuster movies or boy bands and broken down how formulaic they are too.

    m3rl1n pretty much just summed up what I had to say. Well put sir. Most of what this guy says is pretty standard stuff. He's hardly the first person to bring up the videogame crate phenomenon!
    As m3rl1n says, there are very obvious answers as to why a lot of these things are the way they are.
    Quick, let me forward this to Larry Probst and the rest of ea exec. Im sure they will listen and stop making Madden games immediately.

    When will we learn? We have learnt. We know the score. But unfortunately we're not in control. I find the whole thing all a bit patronising to be honest. Like he's the only person that figured this stuff out.
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    Daz: Yeah, notice the recurring theme on many threads on the forum and random articles throughout the web.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    And when did the average guy get a six pack, perfect pecs and a toned body? Yet I hear nothing of that.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Because people like you love fantasy, like you said. Gamers aren't seen as fit. But where as men enhance their looks for games, they degrade women's. Take all the Unreal hunks, add 12 inch adrenaline enhanced penises, and see how you react. Now take a women, and ask her how she would love her fantasy body to look in a game. In fact, I'll ask my girlfriend. Beat that, I don't have to go outside. I gotta admit, I was impressed with Alyx. Valve done good.

    Since when does Mario have a toned body? Dude's a plumber. laugh.gif
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    "Why are there no game sappealing to women?"

    Yeah, why is it that The fucking Sims doesn't exist? Why are MMORPGs just an illusion created by drugs? Why didn't Nintendo announce they're bringing Nintendogs over here?

    "You're playing Solitaire at work because you don't want to wait through the startup times"

    No, because you can't just install random stuff on work machines. At home I've got an entire folder full of games that start in less than three seconds. Sure, none of them were on store shelves, they are FREE. When I want to waste five minutes I start Crimsonland, not Solitaire.

    "No more invisible walls! Place actual walls there!"

    Did you ever think that through? Would you really love to play only in narrow canyons? I certainly don't.

    "Make AI smarter than humans!"

    Yeah and make completely autonomous combat bots while we're at it. AI is a HUGE problem because you CAN'T do proper AI in a game. The human brain is more complex than your average gaming machine by a large number of magnitudes. All you can do is develop scripts for any situation you can think of and hope it combines well.

    "Gimme new genre! An attorney game or something!"

    Hell, can't you think of anything new? Attorney games have been done. Capcom has a pretty successful series of attorney games, even.
    Not every idea you can think of is a new game or even fun to play. Getting money for a sex change? That's a plotline, not a game.

    "Don't give me unbreakable wooden doors or crap like that!"

    What age are you stuck in? Any D&D game allows you to force locks, for example. Just play games that have a more interactive world if you're annoyed by FPSes. Or do you secretly just want to blow up lots of enemies?

    "Don't write stuff on the screen!"

    Yeah, because we know how the player loves guessing his health and ammo, right?

    The camera got WORSE from SM64 to SMS? Hell, I've cursed at the camera in SM64 at least twice as often as the one in SMS.

    "Stop the short-sighted business bullshit!"

    Except those moves aren't shortsighted. Unfortunately they aren't going to kill their parent companies, as much as we'd love that.

    "Don't let other features distract from gaming!" "Put more effort into gameplay instead of graphics!"

    Yeah, like the groups working on those features overlap... Right, everybody, drop the Wacom and start coding AI, the gamer demands it!


    As for his rhetoric question on point 5: They'd feel cheated out of 50 bucks because that game has an average rating lower than Enter the Matrix. Women, like any other gamers, hate bad games. He should have used DoA there, at least the critics liked that.
  • sundance
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    sundance polycounter lvl 18
    if you don't like companies churning out the same game year after year. DON'T BUY THEM!!! if people quit buying them, they'll quit making them!

    if i want a realistic game, i play one like delta force: black hawk down. if i want a silly gun-blazing fun-fest, i play UT2004 or serious sam. there's always choices...
  • m3rl1n
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    m3rl1n polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    And when did the average guy get a six pack, perfect pecs and a toned body? Yet I hear nothing of that.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Because people like you love fantasy, like you said. Gamers aren't seen as fit. But where as men enhance their looks for games, they degrade women's. Take all the Unreal hunks, add 12 inch adrenaline enhanced penises, and see how you react. Now take a women, and ask her how she would love her fantasy body to look in a game. In fact, I'll ask my girlfriend. Beat that, I don't have to go outside. I gotta admit, I was impressed with Alyx. Valve done good.

    Since when does Mario have a toned body? Dude's a plumber. laugh.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I get the feeling that was supposed to sting a little - I think you might want to sharpen that rapier wit of yours, friend.

    I didn’t get the feeling, however, that the article was addressing games like Mario, it was referring to modern games, but since you brought it up: since when is the “Princess” sexy or outlandish? They were both portrayed as equally unremarkable individuals.

    It’s not about degrading woman, at least that’s not what I assumed, its about creating woman that men find appealing i.e. sexy. I have yet to see a game degrade women, and my idea of a fantasy woman is not of a degrading nature.

    I recall a conversation I was having in which someone pointed out that the female on the cover of Icewind Dale 2 was scantly clad, at which point I pointed out so was the male (riveting, I know).

    Both characters were portrayed equally in a fantasy style which is what I’ve seen in most - if not all - games.

    Additionally I was not referring to the likes or dislikes of female gamers (I’ve already made my point on the subject of why games are not geared toward the fairer sex - in mass, anyway) I was responding to the assumption that those who like fantasy woman (beautiful, fit, reveling cloths are examples of how they might be portrayed) in their games are automatically a 14 year old or a pervert, and how it’s hypocritical to make that assumption when we are playing fantasy games, and the males are being portrayed on equal ground.

    And honestly I couldn’t give a rat’s ass if my character was portrayed with a 12 inch dick or wore feathers in his ass; I play the game to play the game.

    I’ve played and enjoyed Tomb Raider and I’m certainty not scarred for life because of it.

    By the way: Thanks, Daz. My reaction was very much the same.
  • TomDunne
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    TomDunne polycounter lvl 18
    Hasn't this ground been covered a few dozen times before here on the forums? I think it's been years since I've read a new thought on the "what's wrong with video games" topic, and I'm pretty sure this dog won't be catching his tail any time soon...
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    If you think the fantasy women on games are demeaning to women you haven't seen a women's magazine like Cosmopolitan. What do you think gives them the idea that anorexia is good? Where did high heels come from? Why are girls in reality even more scantly clad than those in games? I think they should stop devaluing themselves before asking us to stop devaluing them but then again the only ones I ever see complain about videogame females are men, women apparently don't mind fantasy characters as long as they're actual characters (there's a gamegirladvance article about this, she seems to like the DoA cast) and not just "porn stars".

    What did people like about Lara Croft, anyway? She's butt ugly!
  • Weiser_Cain
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    Weiser_Cain polycounter lvl 18
    Look as far as I'm concerned game are too rushed these days. Ai, interaction, etc haven't kept up with the graphics department and have actually been dumbed down a lot. I could do more in some old PC games than I could with todays crop of quicky, simultaneously developed multi-platform hackjobs.
    Just my uninformed opinion.
  • Kytos
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    Kytos polycounter lvl 18
    I would personally like to see more games that are meant for playing and not just for stretching the limitations of the newest technology. Fun for it's own sake, and maybe with a storyline that doesn't involve a post-apocalyptic world.

    As far as how women are portrayed in game, i understand that there aren't enough lady gamers to have much of an influence on the industry. My personal preference would be to see myself as a toned woman with six pack abs and a personality, instead of a waifer thin chick with DD breasts and an oozie. I'm not saying that i don't want my characters to have breasts. They are women after all. Sometimes there's no reason for them to be that large in game other than for them to be eye candy to guys. Similar to if you textured a codpiece to the front of the guys UT2004 uniforms. It would only draw attention, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with the game and therefore it's not necessary.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    There are already more games made to be playable than I can play. You must have a lot of time to want even more.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    KDR: You're more annoying than me. Where do you get your logic? So, we should not play any new games at all or encourage their developement to focus on gameplay? Atleast it's no longer a sausage fest in here.

    Is he correct about loading times and patents. That's unbelievable.

    You know what I love. The bouncing boobs in SoulCaliburII. They spent time perfecting that, rather than hair animations and texture stretching. Kinda hard to play when you're laughing so hard.
  • SouL
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    SouL polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]

    Take all the Unreal hunks, add 12 inch adrenaline enhanced penises, and see how you react.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'll react by pulling my pants down and wanking off. Oh, dear lord, 12 inch cocks. Mmm.
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    hahahahahahahhaha
  • StrangeFate
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    StrangeFate polycounter lvl 18
    If you look closely you'll see that that instead of crates, all new Unreal games sport pipes. Someone said here years ago 'pipes are the new crates'.
  • JKim3
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    JKim3 polycounter lvl 18
    I would love it if game artists gave me more "pipe" with my games.
  • BoBo_the_seal
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    BoBo_the_seal polycounter lvl 18
    I like jump puzzles
  • Kirin
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    Kirin polycounter lvl 18
    Pipes = pwnage! Crates = teh suck.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Ca n'est pas une pipe!
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    Jump Puzzles suck! Especially in FPS Games because YOU CAAN"T SEE YOUR FEET!!! the worst part of HL2 was the traffic tunnel...

    Scott
  • PaK
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    PaK polycounter lvl 18
    I like boobies. Keep the boobies in games or I won't play :P

    -R
  • EarthQuake
    I think too many people are taking that article way too seriously. Cant you guys just read something and laugh? I think its pretty obvoius the intentions were to be humorous, not some industry-changing newsbreak to everyone.... So loosen up guys and gals, its just the internet.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    I actually asked a few more females to comment on the boobs issue. Sadly, they didn't care, explaining that it's not an issue they want to get into in an industry full of guys. So, a dead issue. And I doubt we'll see an increase in female game designers. No one comments on the effect it has on sales towards the female market, and how it reflects the developers lack of diversity. There's really nothing I can say or do that matters, other than express my opinions through my creations. Until one day I'm paid enough to not care. Not a big deal, just nice to make some noise.

    http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-05-30&res=l
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    All I can say is that Playboy: The Mansion was made by a female game designer.
  • Jes
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    Jes polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    All I can say is that Playboy: The Mansion was made by a female game designer.

    [/ QUOTE ]You don't find many RL female players in SWG complaining about women-degradation either..
    In fact, most of them are even more scantily clad than the "fake" women! confused.gif

    People just like being sexy and stylin' - GuildWars is a perfect example hereof...
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Playboy: The Mansion was made by a female game designer.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm led to believe no one actually "buys" that game. :P
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Yeah, that happens when you let a woman do a man's job tongue.gif.
  • Prs-Phil
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    Prs-Phil polycounter lvl 18
    we need more women in the industry laugh.gif thats a major problem laugh.gif I´m sick and tired of looking at hairy men at work wink.gif
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Tell your boss you need... um... anatomy reference. also tell him they have to be as hot as the chicks they want on the packaging so it works. Hey, it's worth a try!
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I think too many people are taking that article way too seriously. Cant you guys just read something and laugh?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    NO!!! THERE IS NO HUMOR ON THE INTARWEB IT IS ALL NEWS AND POLEMICSS!!! CEASE YOUR WEAKNESS IN MY SIGHT!!! KILLALL ENEMIES!!!

    Scott
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    If it was meant as a joke it fails at being funny enough.
  • EarthQuake
    You must not have much of a sense of humor then, or just a much different sense of humor than i do. I laughed through the whole article much like i would reading something from www.somethingawful.com.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    I guess I have a very different sense of humor. Do you laugh at Penny Arcade?
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