Home Technical Talk

gun texturing advice/help

polycounter lvl 2
Offline / Send Message
Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
i just started work on a weapon, one the texturing side of things i dont really know how to go about it, whilst looking at gun reference there is some guns like the Ak 47 and M4 which are metal and have that nice roughness to it and then there is weapons like the scar which look like plastic, for this weapon im trying to replicate the scar material for the tan sections and then the black and grey areas based off of the ak/m4, i dont really know how to go about defining the materials, any help would be greatly appreciated - ignore the generated edge wear i was just testing some stuff     

Replies

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    i changed the tan colour to a custom material i made for a mech, im not sure if that looks better?
  • Bek
    Offline / Send Message
    Bek greentooth
    The scar looks like plastic because it IS plastic (polymer). So if you're trying to replicate polymer why are you showing metal underneath?

    The big problem right now is your wear is all high frequency (noisy) and very uniform (it's everywhere). Look at pictures, and I mean really look at them, and ask 'why is that the way it is'. Why is there more wear around this section? Because it moves and scrapes against itself, causing wear. Why is this area clean? Because it's protected by those extrusion. Don't rely entirely on curvature and AO based wear.

    Another question: Why is your camo pattern at two different scales on the optic and gun? Why does the magazine look painted white?
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    thats great thank you, i will sort out what you mentioned, as for edge wear dont worry about that what is on there at the moment is just a test, same goes for the camo scale its just place holder as im more focused on getting the material definition sorted out first 

    so i will focus on getting the camo'd section to appear more plasitc, first off by removing the metal base coat, then i will scale both camo areas to the same scale
    after that i will sort the metal sections out mag and metal body resemble metal
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    started to work on fixing the issues you addressed, is this heading in the right direction? im hoping all the decals will break up the boring flat areas of colour but at the moment i just want to try and nail the main materials 

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    i also tried it with a more faded camo 
  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Don't guess.

    Find out what these materials really are. Shouldn't be too hard if you summon the power of the internet. 

    I can help get you started. The "black material" that AR-15's commonly are composed of is stamped steel with a "blued" finish. It is a type of finish that rust-proofs the metal. This finish can wear off and show metal underneath. Just look up lots of photo references and study the material under different lighting conditions -- or, if possible, go to a gun store or maybe somebody you know owns a gun with a similar finish that you can look at hands on. 

    The polymer material -- same deal except where it wears, you will not find different properties underneath. The heat shields you see on some M16 barrels and the pistol grip and the buttstock are all polymer materials. They can be rough or smooth. The SCAR is a similar material, but I'd double check to find out if the upper receiver isn't a painted metal (pretty sure that part cannot be polymer). 

    If you are not familiar with the different parts of the weapons and what kind of materials they are, it would really be worth it to spend time researching if you want to make more weapons and get the most from this model. Aside from the texturing, you're model looks overall pretty realistic but you might double check the safety selector makes sense. It is only visible on one side, so if it isn't a push through style it needs to be a rotating lever. 

    When you go camping, ten minutes spent making a proper bed can equal hours of restful sleep. Similarly, a few hours spent studying your materials could save you days of tinkering to no good results.

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    i took your advice and studied the materials, this is the updated version, still a heavy work in progress but i feel the materials are much more realistic now, any thoughts? please ignore the generated edge wear it was just to test how materials looked with edge wear and how the metal looks coming though  
  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Looking better to me. 

    The lower part is to be polymer, right? It looks pretty close, but the edge wear marks may be whats throwing me off. Of course plastic can get dinged, but the shiny metal wouldn't be underneath, just more plastic.  

    The magazine -- you have the matte aluminum (*actually, I may be totally wrong about these being aluminum. Maybe they are just a cheap stamped metal) color more or less but typically those aren't a finished metal and thus any dings don't expose a wholly different material underneath. Not saying yours is wrong, but just be sure of what type of material you are aiming to represent. 

    The part of the bolt you can see in the ejection port -- keep in mind the inner parts of a gun must be kept oiled, so this part would have an oily sheen. Also, when in use outdoors, that oil tends to attract dust, which mixes with the oil and makes it grimy. That's why a lot of guns have a cover that snaps shut over the ejection port but pops open when the bolt moves. 

    This is a fictional weapon, right? If you don't mind doing more with the modeling, it may be cool is those circular recesses were actually holes, like heat vents, and you could see through and there could be something like a gas tube inside. Also, some little details you can add when texturing like a grippy texture on the magazine tab are nice touches.

    Keep up the good work!

    *** standard m4 magazines. I don't think these have a finish.
    Image result for m16 magazine
    With a finish that is worn.
    Image result for old m16 magazine
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    thanks for the feedback i will spend some time working on what you suggested, i will probably re do the magazine to resemble the second image you shared (m4 mag with worn finish)
    never realized how different texturing a gun would be compared to my usual army tanks, hopefully with the help you've supplied and some time i will be able to make decent textures for the gun 
  • Axi5
    Offline / Send Message
    Axi5 interpolator
    It's getting better but you should re-read Bek's advice, the whole gun has too many areas of high frequency noise

    I highlighted them in the following image


    The rail at the top is far too noisy, as well as the bolts/slide on the side of the receiver.

    The forward grip is passable to be honest considering it's a grippy material but maybe tone it down a tad in a few areas to make it look worn.

    I highlighted your magazine in green because (from this angle) it looks the best part, since it has good detail but some areas for the eyes to rest.

    You should definitely look at spacing out your areas of detail and areas of rest. This guys tutorial from way back when I first started helped a lot

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    hey guys, i had to put this gun on hold for a uni project, it so happens that the project is to make star wars blasters 
    i've come to ask for more wisdom, i went through and started texturing trying to use the previous advice and i was wondering how you think its going?

  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
    Offline / Send Message
    Amsterdam Hilton Hotel insane polycounter
    you're already improving imo

    some more specific crits based on this latest item




    a good meme to remember with detailing: be BOLD! literally walk across your room and look back at your monitor. does stuff still read?
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    thank you for the detailed feedback, i have started work on the areas pointed out 

  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Really cool!

    No idea what reference looks like or how much you have to stick to it, but I really like the warped colors on that heat shield piece. 

    For something really interesting, you may look at how stainless steel changes colors due to heat. I've got a stainless steel stovepipe on a wood stove that has some really interesting colors kind of like this. I imagine a laser gun might get pretty hot -- and the colors you've already got reminded me of this. 
    Image result for warped color steel
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    im all for making it look cooler haha, i will look into adding that effect to the barrel thanks for the advice
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2

    done a little bit more work, added the heat colour distortion on the barrel, i also added some oil/grease of fingers to the trigger, grip and the polymer  section, also did some more work on the dirt trying to get variation between the dark tones were more dirt would be 
  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    This is looking fantastic. Major improvement in this thread. I think @Amsterdam Hilton Hotel's advice was spot on. 
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    all of your advice has helped, i didnt think texturing guns would of been so different to vehicles, i'll still work on this as i think it can be pushed some more 
  • Thanez
    Offline / Send Message
    Thanez greentooth
    There's some big improvements here. I like your materials in that each piece is interesting in its own right.
    One thing you can work on is blending pieces together better, as right now it looks like you took separate models and stuck them together.



    You'd be amazed of how much you can add to a piece just by blending pieces together naturally. Here I simply used the AO as a mask for a grime texture that only affects the specular and albedo:

  • rexo12
    Offline / Send Message
    rexo12 polycounter lvl 3
    personally I would probably give the top (copper?) grip thingo a bit more depth - some more beveling on the indents (and possibly even extra geometry). 
    The red also indicates sections where I feel the model breaks down a bit - the connections seem floaty and false, this can be fixed up with some slight extra texture detailing - maybe a weld FX or something, or even just some AO.

    The yellow circle I feel especially needs some work, perhaps replace the texture with the more directional brushed look you're going for, and it will definitely need some extra geometry there - a ring or something like on the top barrel - as currently it just looks like it is clipping through the greeble below it.

    The model also looks quite aliased (some examples in green), and I don't know if these shots are just previews, and you're doing a full render later, so I'm just going to assume they aren't. I'd recommend using some kind of AA (or even supersample it). Presentation can go a long way to selling your model, and honestly (I know a few people will disagree) so long as they're not overused, Post process FX's will go a long way, so don't be afraid to use them.

    Also some nicer lighting, with more defined highlights and shadowing would also go far to solidify the model as a 'real' thing. (Again, not sure if these are indicative of final render).

    Best of luck!




  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    thanks for the tips, i see what you mean about the connectors, i will try a weld fx and some shade/dirt to see if it looks any better, if not i will have to go back to the modelling stage and redo those areas, i was thinking of the model in terms of first person so i focused mostly on the rear of the weapon (i know this is the wrong way to go about it) about the render this is just the preview window inside substance painter, i dont have any fancy render engines like marmoset or keyshot as they are out of price for a student, best i have is Iray and for some reason it doesnt seem to work on my pc  
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    ok so i now have a trial for marmoset so i have 30 days to see if i can make a nice render for this having never used the software xD

    about 15 mins of messing around seeing what stuff did, i also added some of the stuff Rexo brought up, so for example on some of the metal joins i have added a weld seam, and on some others i have gone though and added some darker tones with the AO
  • rexo12
    Offline / Send Message
    rexo12 polycounter lvl 3
    looking good! I can 100% recommend marmoset as an investment, it is such a great tool for presenting your models. If you can't afford it you can also try using UE4 to showcase your models, I remember there being some community projects to make it more suited to portfolio shots.
  • Thanez
    Offline / Send Message
    Thanez greentooth
    Looks much better now that you blended the pieces together, it makes the whole thing more believable. You forgot a couple of places though :)
    The main issue I see now is that in the valleys/recesses of details you have no AO representation, so they're kinda glaring at you. You did it with the long inset along the foregrip, but nearly nowhere else...
    See ribs at the top, the screw on the mag base, the two screws on the foregrip.

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    hm there is AO for those areas, i guess its not as strong as the other areas, i will work on boosting those areas up
  • Mark Dygert
    It's looking good you've made some nice progress!

    1) I'm not sure of the material the main part hanging under the barrel. You are being really conservative with reflections/roughness/glossiness, it looks like really dusty, greasy and undisturbed like it's been in the back of some grandpas shop and not touched in decades.

    Roughness/glossiness/specularity, which is a HUGE part of what makes metal surfaces look like metal, is mostly absent from this piece of the gun.

    2) If you bring back the roughness and metalness, you'll get a chance to tell the story of the weapon alot more. It will enable you to show which areas have been touched/worn and used more often than others. Being able to dull an area with a fingerprint smudge gives it so much life and history.

    3) The trenches running from the screws under the gun, look more like grunge/grease stains.

    This tutorial has a lot of really good techniques: https://support.allegorithmic.com/documentation/display/SPDOC/Tutorials

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    It's looking good you've made some nice progress!

    1) I'm not sure of the material the main part hanging under the barrel. You are being really conservative with reflections/roughness/glossiness, it looks like really dusty, greasy and undisturbed like it's been in the back of some grandpas shop and not touched in decades.

    Roughness/glossiness/specularity, which is a HUGE part of what makes metal surfaces look like metal, is mostly absent from this piece of the gun.

    2) If you bring back the roughness and metalness, you'll get a chance to tell the story of the weapon alot more. It will enable you to show which areas have been touched/worn and used more often than others. Being able to dull an area with a fingerprint smudge gives it so much life and history.

    3) The trenches running from the screws under the gun, look more like grunge/grease stains.

    This tutorial has a lot of really good techniques: https://support.allegorithmic.com/documentation/display/SPDOC/Tutorials

    thanks for the advice, which section are you referring too in points 1 and 2?
  • Mark Dygert

    I think that is metal but it isn't very reflective and that lack of roughness/reactivity is hurting an area that could contribute a lot to the weapon. If it's another material type then I'm not sure what it is, or how to help it.

    https://enricot.artstation.com/projects/qPaey

    Check out the shiny areas and how they're broken up.
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    ah right that material is a polymer material   
  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    spent some more time in marmoset after tweaking the AO, i did a little editing inside photoshop, mainly adding some heat distortion effect to the copper heat plate, not sure if its obvious what it is or if people will think its just some dodgy normal maps haha, i also need to redo the lighting in this as everything turned out to look like the colour had been washed out
  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    Looks fantastic. Well done. 

    With this latest iteration, I think I still agree with what Mark Dygert said a few post up in that the bulky middle part, which I would call the forward grip, is a bit flat. Not that it looks unrealistic, it just isn't as interesting as the rest of the model. Maybe it can be converted somehow? Like a fancy wood inlay -- like something Han Solo might carry. Or maybe it's just banged up metal. Maybe it could be paint metal and show more wear at the edges? Or maybe remain polymer but have some kind of microsurface texture to make it easy to grip with sweaty hands?

    Just some random ideas, but overall very excellent work. Makes me want to make some blasters.

    Additional: Noticed the visible part where the polymer grip area meets the metal underneath the sideways magazine piece looks like a CG intersection. Assuming the bulky middle piece is a polymer hand grip, I might expect it to be a molded piece that fits around the metal frame, and so there would be a small beveled edge where they meet. Not a great reference but this attachable gangster grip is the same idea. A molded plastic that fits over a metal section. Image result for g3 forward grip

  • Simon_____
    Offline / Send Message
    Simon_____ polycounter lvl 2
    Looks fantastic. Well done. 

    With this latest iteration, I think I still agree with what Mark Dygert said a few post up in that the bulky middle part, which I would call the forward grip, is a bit flat. Not that it looks unrealistic, it just isn't as interesting as the rest of the model. Maybe it can be converted somehow? Like a fancy wood inlay -- like something Han Solo might carry. Or maybe it's just banged up metal. Maybe it could be paint metal and show more wear at the edges? Or maybe remain polymer but have some kind of microsurface texture to make it easy to grip with sweaty hands?

    Just some random ideas, but overall very excellent work. Makes me want to make some blasters.

    Additional: Noticed the visible part where the polymer grip area meets the metal underneath the sideways magazine piece looks like a CG intersection. Assuming the bulky middle piece is a polymer hand grip, I might expect it to be a molded piece that fits around the metal frame, and so there would be a small beveled edge where they meet. Not a great reference but this attachable gangster grip is the same idea. A molded plastic that fits over a metal section. Image result for g3 forward grip

    thanks i see what you mean about it looking flat, also would something like this work for breaking it up? (pump grip section)

  • Alex Javor
    Offline / Send Message
    Alex Javor insane polycounter
    I thought about something like that as well. 

    I think there is a lot of things you could do. I'd try to think of what would go best with the blaster lore wise. Maybe there is lots of different star wars blasters you could look at to find the most appropriate design. Whatever you do, I look forward to seeing it.
  • Thanez
    Offline / Send Message
    Thanez greentooth
    Most polymers are fiberglass reinforced, so capturing how the glass fibres affect the glossiness is something that can help sell the material.
    These fibres are only visible when they're at or near the top of the surface of the polymer, so using a regular glass fibre texture won't work, as it'll basically look like long plastic hair. I made this effect by adding an edited frost texture in the glossiness in 'overlay' mode. 
    The texture only showed the grain created when a window freezes from one side to the other. No 'ice crystals' or snowflakes allowed:


    I put this effect in the glossiness and specular only, since glass is usually nearly colorless. Also at a low opacity so it doesn't overpower the entire texture at all times, but gives you a nice light-show when the lighting grazes or changes around it.

Sign In or Register to comment.