How to model very complex shapes ?

Peksio · Feb 2018

Hello. First of all, I didn't use thread "How the F*** do I model this" because I don't have one specific shapes in mind. I want to ask about whole workflow.

For now I use standard subd for modelling of simple shapes. If shape is too difficulat or time consuming for me to make it in classic subd I use booleans + polish in zbrush. I sometimes create one subd model and second subd model to boolean them in zbrush and after this use polish to make edges nice.

But I don't have any slightest idea how people are able to create models like that: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/BJAmk or that: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/NQq4b

I mean, how can you approach this ?

If you look at first link, in software you can see only 3ds max and vray. I wanted to point that out because I saw that people for that kind of shapes use software like zbrush (I don't know what are proportions between "classic" zbrush and booleaning subd) or Fusion 360, or Moi3d or even CAD's software.

I am kinda confused about what exactly should I learn and how. Which techniques or maybe plugins, or some specific workflows ? Should I ditch subd on behalf of mastering zbrush hard surface or should I go for a diffrent software ?

If someone could give me a "push" in right direction I would be very grateful.

Thanks and Cheers !

renderhjs · Feb 2018

Your question is a bit like how did Da Vinci paint the Mona Lisa? Obviously in both cases a lot of little techniques allow for a better strategy and execution. It will always be experience and hard work that gets you there, not shortcuts.

I still think it would be a good practice to just read and study the "How the F***" thread and perhaps post your helmet examples with an attempt by yourself. Others will likely share their thought process and strategy for the difficult parts.

KurtR · Feb 2018

I gotta agree with renderhjs and where he is coming from. In my view it's much more about understanding how something works than what tools too use. Like if you are modeling houses, read architecture too understand both emotional language of architecture as well as how things are actually construed in real life. If you are doing characters, understand anatomy. If you are doing cars, understand shape language.

When it comes to the helmet design you want to check this out:

https://gumroad.com/chungkan

When it comes to understanding shape language better, this is an awesome lecture on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMH_J_vcoqE

Also pick up books like:

https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Donald-Norman/dp/1452654123

Another great way of exercising is just using your mind and doing thought-experiments. Pick an object and just sit with it and try to construct it in your mind without modeling anything. This is actually the way both Feynman, Jung, Einstein and many more of the greats worked. Its such an underused exercise since its such and easy exercise to do. Socrates was skeptical to the printing of words and thought it would deteriorate the minds of people. I think this is the point he had in mind. We overcompensate with action, like talking or doing, instead of contemplating our subjects or ideas more thoroughly, though on the other hand action is the only thing that will bring us results. But still an interesting perspective.

Peksio · Feb 2018

renderhjs said:

Your question is a bit like how did Da Vinci paint the Mona Lisa? Obviously in both cases a lot of little techniques allow for a better strategy and execution. It will always be experience and hard work that gets you there, not shortcuts.

I still think it would be a good practice to just read and study the "How the F***" thread and perhaps post your helmet examples with an attempt by yourself. Others will likely share their thought process and strategy for the difficult parts.

I kinda understand what you are saying. I know that my question is ... well ... big ? Broad ? I don't know the word for it :P

But, I am not asking how to do this step by step, I am asking about advices about my aproach. I don't know if this souds better thou xd

KurtR said:

I gotta agree with renderhjs and where he is coming from. In my view it's much more about understanding how something works than what tools too use. Like if you are modeling houses, read architecture too understand both emotional language of architecture as well as how things are actually construed in real life. If you are doing characters, understand anatomy. If you are doing cars, understand shape language.

When it comes to the helmet design you want to check this out:

https://gumroad.com/chungkan

When it comes to understanding shape language better, this is an awesome lecture on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMH_J_vcoqE

Also pick up books like:

https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Donald-Norman/dp/1452654123

Another great way of exercising is just using your mind and doing thought-experiments. Pick an object and just sit with it and try to construct it in your mind without modeling anything. This is actually the way both Feynman, Jung, Einstein and many more of the greats worked. Its such an underused exercise since its such and easy exercise to do. Socrates was skeptical to the printing of words and thought it would deteriorate the minds of people. I think this is the point he had in mind. We overcompensate with action, like talking or doing, instead of contemplating our subjects or ideas more thoroughly, though on the other hand action is the only thing that will bring us results. But still an interesting perspective.

Thanks you very much! I watched the lecture and it was great. I decided that it is time to also re-read some chapters from Neil Blevins blog.

Also I started watching "Hard Surface 3D Modeling for Production" tutorial. I have to say that it is one of the most advanced tutorial that I saw but ... I cannot get rid of one feeling.

I opened his model in maya, it is impressive, and render on gumroad site is really good looking but when you look at smoothed model in maya with shiny material you can see that it isn't smoothing well in many places.

I mean, model looks good, but it is still subd, so I don't know if I can expect great smoothnes and then extra sharp detail like some hardcore hole for screw and then again very smooth surface.

And now I am starting to think, maybe I expect to much from subd ? Maybe subd is good for weapons, and stuff that is either boxy or very smooth without that hard details.

Maybe I should go full zbrush on parts that are just too complex for subd ?

Or maybe someone have some tutorial or workflow with very complex shapes like sci fi helmets where helmet is both curvy, smooth and sharp and is smoothing very good ?

KurtR · Feb 2018

Just keep modeling and sculpting. Both options are good too handle. As you keep modeling you start to internalize and develop an non-intellectual understanding of it all. But best advice is just to rinse and repeat. Zbrush has come far in hard surface modeling now as well. If you can get the introduction course from gnomon workshops on the latest version of zbrush, that's probably the best overall course out there.

KurtR · Feb 2018

By the way, I might be wrong, but I pick up some "perfectionism" in you. If that is true, try to avoid it. Its a destructive force in art when you try to skill up. But again, I might be wrong.

Peksio · Feb 2018

Thanks, I will try to keep that in mind

If anyone have some ideas or thoughts about workflows or maybe other tutorials with more complicated shapes I will be very grateful.

Neox · Feb 2018

the approach should always be the same, rough to detailled. do your main shapes first, then work on the details. this applies to almost anything. modelling, sculpting, texturing, you name it

How to model very complex shapes ?

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