Viewport Canvas-Textures detail lost after saving textures

melviso · Oct 2016

Just noticed this today- over the course of multiple savings of a texture file after painting using Viewport Canvas. The tiny details or lower color vaules get lost in the process.
I don't know if anyone has experienced this? I am guessing there aren't a lot of ppl who use Viewport Canvas here.
This is really very uncool. It's kinda fustrating to learn that this happens. For a while now, I have been wondering what happens to a particular area as I knew I had painted those texture details in before. Good texture painting takes considerable time and to finally realise this is kinda painful..lol.

I am not sure if this has something to do with Windows 10 update cause I have been having problems with the tool since I got the Windows 10 ambush upgrade.

If anyone knows a solution to this, pls kindly let me know. Switching to good old Photoshop for now.

musashidan · Oct 2016

Are you, per chance, using a lossy file like .jpeg? If so, you should be using 16bit .tiff, or similar.

melviso · Oct 2016

Yep, I use jpeg sometimes. So jpeg will lose details as you save over it repeatedly? I was suspecting this had to do with 3dsmax and gamma. In the preferences, I have 3dsmax lut at 2.2. Seems viewport canvas saves the painted map with that 2.2 setting making the image brighter than what I intially painted. With repeated savings, it becomes brighter and brighter, eroding color values and details. I may be wrong.. because I have saved out textures with .jpeg when I used to make use of Photoshop for texturing before switching to using Viewport canvas completely for my 3d works without losing those details.

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

Viewport Canvas doesn't behave well with gamma:
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-forum/viewport-canvas-display-disparity-maybe-gamma-issue/m-p/6244836#M112797

JPG is lossy, so the compression artifacts will get more pronounced each time you re-save the same file.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5gC3EzlJg
http://petapixel.com/2016/04/06/happens-resave-image/

melviso · Oct 2016

Thanks a ton, Eric.

I am suspecting a gamma issue. Of recent, 3dsmax has been resetting its UI and other preference settings randomly. If one makes changes to the .ini file, will the setttings go back when 3dsmax does the reset.

Another issue I have been having is 3dsmax crashing whenever I want to paint at 4k or sometimes 2048 using viewport canvas. I now have to break the mesh into smaller pieces to paint using 1024. Never had this issue using Windows 8.1.

After watching that vid, noone needs to tell me twice, while jpeg is a no-no for textures. What about 8-bit TIFF file format or png? From what I googled, they are lossless file formats. I am trying to avoid having huge file sizes as this will make render time longer.
I read this:
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Texture_formats

So if I had a source PSD file where I can save out each texture with a save as option to overwrite a jpg or png, there will be no loss of detail. (probably will be using png from now on as it is lossless.) TIFF might result in too high file size?

Would be cool to know what file formats others here use?

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

PSDs mostly, unless the game engine or renderer doesn't like the format. Max for example can't read the alpha channel from a PSD. But Max creates a flattened version of the PSD, so there's no big memory cost. Unity does the same, it can read PSD alpha, but it makes a DXT file to use when rendering the texture.

There are some good export tools for Photoshop if you want to extract layers/groups into separate images.
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/PhotoshopTools#Export_Tools

melviso · Oct 2016

Thanks again,
I think it might be time to stop using viewport canvas to avoid any issues. Things have become problematic since Windows 10. I am suspecting since I am still using 3dsmax 2014 (never felt the need to upgrade since my workflow is simple) there are going to be complications as Autodesk probably will be concentrating on ironing out issues only with their latest version and Windows 10 especially with the crashes.

I will still use Viewport Canvas but for minor things. I am still bummed about the texture I painted with all the complex details lost and time spent. Will have to redo it..lol. Can't have this happening when there is a deadline or time constraint.

musashidan · Oct 2016

Yeah, VC has been badly neglected. It was stuck into Max in 2012 or so and never updated since. Pity really as it could have been a useful feature.

personally I use 16bit .tif for offline rendering, 8bit .tga for realtime.

melviso · Oct 2016

Thanks for the info, musashidan.

Yeah, VC hasn't been improved in a long while, with Mudbox being Autodesk default texturing app.

Guys,
I am having some problem with the Photoshop export tools. A lot of them seem to no longer have support.
JD texture exporter does not seem to work with Photoshop cs6,
qsave seems to save the texures with only the visible folder in PS. Say I have 5 folders, the last folder would save with the correct name but if the top folder or any folder above it is visible, it saves with the images in that folder.

Texture Manager by Ron Kamphius has the same issue. It saves to the correct files but the top folder is the saved texture.
It seems most of the exporters are quite old and may not be supported by their devs anymore? I am using Photoshop CS6.

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

Did you see this one? In active development.
http://polycount.com/discussion/171661/photoshop-extension-lazy-save

cptSwing · Oct 2016

musashidan said:

Yeah, VC has been badly neglected. It was stuck into Max in 2012 or so and never updated since. Pity really as it could have been a useful feature.

It's puzzling, really. What's the point of including a feature that's left in such a basic state - surely nobody really uses it in production?

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

You can vote on Autodesk's site to show them which features are important to their user base. Some good ideas listed here for Viewport Canvas, written by a Max beta tester (which means he has direct input), plus there's a link to the voting site:
http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_tools/wishlist/3dsmax/wishlist_3d_paint_improve.htm

melviso · Oct 2016

Eric Chadwick said:

Did you see this one? In active development.
http://polycount.com/discussion/171661/photoshop-extension-lazy-save

Thanks for the link, Eric.

I doubt Autodesk would make any improvements to VC. There is Mudbox. They would want their users to use that instead. VC is just very convenient and is a very powerful tool too. I like the fact that you can paint these textures without the need to export models or use another program and you can paint textures in relation to other models positions and scale.

melviso · Oct 2016

Checked back on this link provided by Eric-
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-max-forum/viewport-canvas-display-disparity-maybe-gamma-issue/m-p/6244836#M112797

Seems there is a workaround now for the gamma problem with VC. Manually saving it out solves the issue which brings me to another issue I just noticed.
Whenever I finish painting some details in photoshop, and do a render in 3dsmax, and I am satisfied with the results, the next time I open up 3dsmax, and run the render, the texture details read differently. This seems to happen everytime I re-save the texture after adjustments.
I painted a bump map which had the correct vaules, later after a re-render the bump map vaules seem to be way higher than the previous render after I resave the texture after making some modifications in PS. I am not sure if this is a renderer issue, 3dsmax or photoshop bug.

This problem goes away if I do a reload of the texture in the material editor before a re-render or manually relink to the re-saved file. Or is this an issue with qsave I am using with Photoshop. When I import the exported image into photoshop,the color vaules are the same with the .psd source file or is this viewport canvas issue all over again or my eyes are playing tricks on me?
Shouldn't 3dsmax automtically update the texture whenever changes are made to a texture.Cause the changes show up in the viewport, but seem to read differently in a render when the texture is re-saved. Gamma 2.2 issue?

EDIT- I think I have figured out the problem. When I had a corrupt photoshop file that opened with a black background. I copied my exported maps back into that file and continued working with it. Seems the files saved out have some sort of error with them.
Had to open a fresh new file, import the exported maps and everything works fine now when saved. Corrupted file had a # sign at the end of the (rgb/8).

melviso · Oct 2016

I wanted to ask is there a better workflow artists use in Photoshop if you want to paint wear or chiped paint on the edges of a 3d model and that edge seperates into 2 uv islands. How would you do this or for this 3d painting is required?
Is there any sort of PS script that moves your brush between two uv island edges as you paint?

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

Substance Painter or 3do are the ways to save time painting edge wear etc. since they mix texture space and model space, and automate much of the process.

Viewport Canvas has too many problems to be useful except in simple situations. And it has no awareness of the curvature/orientation/occlusion of the model, as these other tools do.

melviso · Oct 2016

Ok. Thanks mate

I am also thinking maybe using VC to block in the areas for edge wear and using PS to detail it.

melviso · Oct 2016

One more question about VC. Has anyone figured a way to import a layer with transparency into the layer editor? During import, VC will ask if u want to import the .psd file flattened or individual layers. If u import an indiviual layer that has a mask or transparency layer, VC imports it with a black background.

Eric Chadwick · Oct 2016

I remember being pissed that it rasterized all fill and shape layers, killed adjustment layers, groups are messed up, etc. Always save a backup PSD before I use it, Flatten, etc.

melviso · Oct 2016

Will definitely be saving a backup. I think I may be on to something concerning the gamma issue with viewport canvas. May have something to do with resuming a render from dump (.exr file). Not quite sure, will have to do some more test.
Because so far, no gamma issue at all if I render from scratch, and then go in and paint my textures using VC and right-clicking to save..

melviso · Dec 2016

Gamma issue in VC is still a problem even with workaround. Thanks for all the help and suggestions, guys.
Will stick to Photoshop/Blender 3d painting for handpainting textures.
I am currently giving Unreal engine 4 another go for archviz work.

Does anyone know what file format is best for Unreal engine 4 with the best resolution and manageable file size? I am guessing .tiff or psd files will be too large. Probably have a master psd file and export textures as .jpeg or pngs as saving from the master psd file over the png each time will avoid compression. Can anyone share what format they use and why when importing textures into ue4.

Mark Dygert · Dec 2016

Ever since they turned on gamma by default, 3-4 versions ago Viewport Canvas has been fubar. It wasn't much to look at before but at least it worked, once upon a time.

melviso · Dec 2016

Yeah, Viewport Canvas had so much potential and it is very convenient to use. Hope Autodesk fixes it. Seems a lot of ppl are complaining about 3dsmax 2017. I am still using 2014 version lol.

Viewport Canvas-Textures detail lost after saving textures

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