Mayan Character
polycounter lvl 5
Hey Guys, I've been lurking around on these forums for some time now. I find it both inspiring and slightly intimidating if i'm honest, so I've only posted once or twice before.
That said - I am in my final year of Uni studying Games Art and I have been set the task of modelling a character for a module called ‘Character Production for Games’.
I aim to regularly upload my progress, so that I can document the process as I go and also, so that you guys can have some input and hopefully help me create something really good.
I shall be starting work on modelling a base mesh in 3DS Max soon however I shall start by sharing my concept work with you all first.
Started by working out what direction I wanted to go in. The Character had to be based on something that definitely existed, ruling out many fantasy / sci-fi ideas.
I decided to do a Mayan Character.
Silhouettes:
Quite liked the idea of having a mask for the character:
Mask designs annotated (explaining which one I chose and why):
Refining the silhouettes a bit further to narrow down a favourite (silhouettes chosen were based on a vote taken by the members of our games courses):
I chose the Priest design as I felt it was the most interesting with regards to the background and synopsis I could create for the character.
I feel that it's important to know about a character and their traits and history etc, but I didn't want to spam you all with a wall of text.
So i'll just leave a link here to some extra information and background and then at least there's the option: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Duutns8Qn8hkyVA7Am3MT1PNdNadRPQZHEExww20jGI/edit?usp=sharing
Final Concept Sketch:
That said - I am in my final year of Uni studying Games Art and I have been set the task of modelling a character for a module called ‘Character Production for Games’.
I aim to regularly upload my progress, so that I can document the process as I go and also, so that you guys can have some input and hopefully help me create something really good.
I shall be starting work on modelling a base mesh in 3DS Max soon however I shall start by sharing my concept work with you all first.
Started by working out what direction I wanted to go in. The Character had to be based on something that definitely existed, ruling out many fantasy / sci-fi ideas.
I decided to do a Mayan Character.
Silhouettes:
Quite liked the idea of having a mask for the character:
Mask designs annotated (explaining which one I chose and why):
Refining the silhouettes a bit further to narrow down a favourite (silhouettes chosen were based on a vote taken by the members of our games courses):
I chose the Priest design as I felt it was the most interesting with regards to the background and synopsis I could create for the character.
I feel that it's important to know about a character and their traits and history etc, but I didn't want to spam you all with a wall of text.
So i'll just leave a link here to some extra information and background and then at least there's the option: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Duutns8Qn8hkyVA7Am3MT1PNdNadRPQZHEExww20jGI/edit?usp=sharing
Final Concept Sketch:
Replies
Rock and roll, though, let's see where this goes
I shall definitely look into having some more jewellery. I'm wondering if to achieve what you mean about the internal silhouette whether or not the neck piece he has on now just needs to be more dense potentially? More like the ones in this image from my pinterest board - http://www.pinterest.com/pin/557461260099920152/
I am trying to achieve a sense of wealth (since all priests had to be learned men, and you only had such a privilege if you had wealth) however I am trying to not have too much that he might be mistaken for a king or ruler.
If jewellery turns out not to be the answer to the internal silhouette issue, maybe some more body paint / tattoos could also help?
I'm not sure if that was your choice, but the skinnier, taller figure is a lot more menacing. Definitely an interesting concept, and I love how you're presenting your workflow. It's just that last image doesn't feel right for me.
The feather's will definitely be large and imposing and peacock like as you say as I'm hoping they'll help me push the idea of his authority. He is after all supposed to be a "voice for the gods".
With regards to the size of his body: I didn't intend for him to look too fat, I was aiming for a "fed" look, meaning that although just due to their culture and what they had available to eat he would be quite lean, he would also have a slight pot belly which sets him apart visually from the poorer people in society.
The closest reference I found was these Huli Wigmen who I pinned on my pinterest board - http://www.pinterest.com/pin/557461260099861001/
(These men are older than my character and so the effect is exaggerated however they are leanish just due to their diet and active lifestyles).
Do you have any suggestions as to how to better portray this idea?
Hey JadeEyePanda, I did a quick paint over with some necklace variations, do you think any of these are better with regards to fixing the internal silhouette?
Starting to model the basic mesh:
His head will be finished and attached soon hopefully.
Its great to see some research prior to jumping into a project.
I suggest looking for a focal point in your character (probably the skull) Use line and form to draw the viewers eye to it. At the moment your design is a bit too noisy.
Good luck with it
High Poly Sculpting:
Sculpting in the clavicle and pectoral muscles.
Loincloth and accessories next!
What difficulties do you foresee me having for having it contiguous to the mesh?
Also, do you have any tips as to how I should go about creating the necklace piece?
You can do these as separate polygroups or subtools. If you're worried about not being able to sculpt "Underneath" intercepting mesh, you can isolate as needed through polygroup isolation or subtool isolation.
Difficulties doing it as one contiguous mesh include, but not limited too, awkward pinching and smoothing at places where they would be separated, mistaken backface sculpting, etc.
I would model it out in Maya as much as you can, rig it around a curve to give it shape.
I'm currently unsure as to how the seperate items / subtools for bits of clothing are added to the model and therefore unwrapped along with it etc or whether they just remain as seperate objects even once they return to a low poly state back in 3ds Max.
I shall try creating the necklace in 3ds Max as you suggest also.
Thank you for continuing to show interest in my project.
Mask, Split Masked, Dynamesh to close holes cleanly to separate out new subtools.
Its a lot easier to figure this sorta stuff out in concept/reference phases rather than just making stuff and hoping for the best. I like what you have so far, just needs more specific direction imo.
Hey Brad, I'm aiming at creating a hand painted stylised model that isn't too exaggerated or unrealistic. A style similar to that of Blizzard in Diablo for example. I am hoping to eventually get this character into a fitting environment, that I shall model, and even use an isometric camera reminiscent of Diablo but i don't want to get too ahead of myself. Haha
I'm hoping to achieve this by polypainting my zbrush model and then using that detail and normal maps I shall attempt to make a much lower poly model look better.
I fear my concepts may just come across as fairly cartoony purely because I am not as gifted with photoshop as I would like but I am hoping they provide a good enough idea for people to know what I am aiming for.
Great job with your recent Rift Fan art piece btw, I enjoyed watching that evolve.
I then worked on some cloth folds on the loincloth, which I have slightly exaggerated so that the detail will still be easy to see from a diablo style camera angle. (https://arcadelife.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/d3_outside_gate.jpg)
I have also added some leather bands as new subtools as can be seen from the side as Brian suggested this method. I was able to mask the areas and then mesh extract them.
I will need to paint and pose the model soon. Would you guys recommend posing in Zbrush or is it better to do this in another program?
Lift the arms up, skinning a model with the arms down is NOT going to make a Rigging Artist's day a good day. T or A pose, standard, efficient procedure for most game character models.
Separate the loin cloth into components. You're running into unclean separations again getting the waistband and hanging loin cloth as one subtool.
Your abdominal muscles look anatomically incorrect, which also affects your pelvis. Where's the illiac crest? If that's where I think it is, his hips are deformed and do not look healthy.
Good job with the reference board. Lot of people forget to even start one.
Do you have a screenshot of the sculpt at an isometric view? Hard to tell if your model is working wihtout mocking it up in an in-game camera scenario,
I shall be needing to pose the model for a final render for college but not rig the character yet. I shall look into moving the arms anyway though, but that's why I didn't start with the common T or A shape.
Since the loincloth was part of my initial low poly mesh that I imported in I'm not sure how to do anything with it. In the same way as with the mask I think i shall have to just make do with them how they are for the time being in order to meet my deadlines.
I feel like there is something wrong with the abdominal muscles too but i've been struggling to put my finger on it. I used medical reference as well as artist reference for torsos but there still seems to be something off.
I have adjusted the hips now, hopefully they feel a bit more correct. Thank you for pointing that out for me. I have also drawn an arrow representing where I placed the illiac crest, but I believe it was where you thought it was already.
This is my first character and one of my first few times using Zbrush so I really appreciate your help Brian. Thanks again.
A physical version of my character in final pose made with super sculpey:
Then I started polypainting: I layered several shades of colour over each other as well as deep reds and blues to try and create an uneven natural skin feel rather than just solid colour.
I then tried to make the value of skin tone darker towards the feet and lighter towards the head in order that the player's eye may be drawn towards the head / mask and eventually the feathers that will be there too.
Unfortunately my skin tone colours themselves are all slightly off and I can't seem to get them to look correct. I feel this might because of something i'm doing wrong within the programme and that the material is showing through the colours themselves but i'm not sure.
I am hoping that I when I get the UV unwrap done I can alter the colours further in photoshop whilst retaining the detail from the polypaint.
I still need to paint the tattoos on and then my plan from there on is to try and use the transpose master within zbrush to get the model into the pose I'm after and then try and get the UVs done and a lower poly mesh kicked out.
[Edit: I now also completely understand how annoying those unclean seperations on the mask and loincloth are Brian. Next time I shall simply have a nude model that I import and do all of the clothing items within zbrush. I would start all over again but my deadline for college means that that sadly is not possible].
Google ZBro and find ZBro matcaps.
Looking so much more like I was aiming for now:
I'm gonna have to tone down the tattoos now somehow though. I guess I'll just lightly go over them with the skin tone to make them look a bit more like they're under the skin rather than just painted on the outside.
I made a character a while back that seems to use the same workflow you are going for.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108846
I would caution that baking down your maps from highpoly will only get you so far. You will need to do a lot of hand painting for optimal results after the fact. The main reason I like to use highpoly personally when creating a low poly diffuse only character is to really nail the proportions (which really are the most important thing in character design.) Its hard to just model a low poly and have everything look perfect in the end, but that's my logic anyway. I'd encourage you to play around with the proportions some more since you are in zbrush still and see what you can come up with. Pull some random inspiration references to help you as well.
Here's a couple I found real quick that are sculpts:
Yeah, I think it would've been much easier to do that in photoshop as you say, and have them on different layers and stuff. I was trying to work out if you could do that on zbrush as I believe mudbox has a similar function but I couldn't work it out.
The good news is with every action I do I learn a whole load. Especially with the help you've been providing me. This character has to get done for my assignment but I'm looking forward to making another one afterwards now, taking into account all these things that i've learnt.
Didn't actually catch the original post though so i'll have a look through it in a moment. I imagine there will be stuff in there that can help me even.
Yeah I can understand what you're saying. Personally I would've rather have gone straight from zspheres and then dynameshed the character out but my tutor wanted me to gain the practise of starting low first. This is why I started out with my low poly mesh and then added in lots more rows to even out the topology before subdividing out. I believe my original mesh for this guy was like 3k polys. I guess it's good to understand and practise all the different ways so that you can find whichever way works best for you as an individual.
The results are not good and i'm wondering what the solution is.
Maybe I simply want to move the model too much for the transpose tool to be sufficient and shall have to rig the model in order to avoid these deformations or maybe I can continue the way I have been with the tranpose tool and simple use the move tool and other brushes to essentially re-sculpt the model into this position?
(note this unwrap doesn't seem to include the subtools such as the leather bands and i'm not quite sure why)
However I am wondering if this is ok, or whether or not I will need to just unwrap it back in 3DS Max.
If I can use Brad's unwrap as an example (hope he doesn't mind): https://www.pinterest.com/pin/557461260101566992/
His unwrap is very neat and well organized into seperate islands. Now I understand that with the more islands you have the more seams you'll have but I can see that his have been well hidden on the edges of clothing and places where for the most part you would have clean seams anyway.
He also obviously designates more space on the map for places that need to be more detailed.
I tried using the density function of the uv master to create more space for the head / mask with this in mind but I'm not entirely convinced that it's enough.
To answer your question regarding uv's, they are indeed unifficient. You are wasting a lot of texturing space.
Your statement regarding seams is innacurate as well. If you do your uv's and your bake properly, you shouldn't get seams. With 3d texturing package (such as zbrush, 3dcoat, etc.), you don't have any excuse to have seams in your diffuse texture either.
On a side note: you seem to be jumping from one thing to another rather quickly. I don't know if it's because a deadline is coming up for your course, but I'd suggest to slow down a bit, study anatomy references and improve your model before moving on. There is no point in uving and texturing a model that doesn't already look solid on his own. Good luck!
Yeah ok so the best way is for me will be to go back and take the time to unwrap the character in 3ds Max. Hopefully I can just export the lowest sub division into 3dsmax unwrap and then reimport it to zbrush without losing any of my high poly texturing or anything.
My deadline is stressing me out indeed. I sadly can't spend any more time changing the anatomy on the model for fear of not making the deadline. I am quite happy with it as my first attempt though and hopefully what I learn making this model will help when it comes to creating my next ones as i say.
The reason I swapped from posing to unwrapping was just to try and avoid getting so frustrated that I had to take a break. Haha. I guess I was just trying to stay motivated and not get too disheartened.
Thanks for getting back to me once more guys.
Don't worry about losing your highpoly texturing. Once your uvs are done, simply reimport your mesh while you are at the lowest subdivision.
You will keep all the polypaint information, plus you'll have your new uvs. You can then bake your polypaint to a texture like you previously did.
Cheers!
So after another disastrous attempt at posing using just the transpose tools:
I had a go at rigging the model with zspheres:
Sadly moving this around is also not helping me much.
I feel like currently the pose from my final concept art picture isn't obtainable with these methods due to strange deformation of the mesh however I'm sure that's probably just me. I can but keep trying to guess.
Used two tubes, one to represent the string and one to represent a bead:
Then I duplicated the bead over and over changing size and rotation to create a more natural random feel:
I continued this process until I had a full necklace loop and then duplicated those twice to create the full necklace:
I have an overall budget of 25k tris for the whole character and I'm currently looking at 21.5k which is good as it leaves me plenty of room to add the feathers and potentially a dagger.
The only thing is when I have then baked the polypaint at the highest subdivision and exported it at 2048x2048 it doesn't seem to have quite the same level of detail as on the model. Is this how it's going to be or am I missing a crucial setting somewhere or something equally obvious to the more skilled of us?
The good news is I've handed in this assignment now and I did manage to finish something. It's probably not as high a standard as I was hoping but for a first character, my first time using zbrush and so much to learn, it was a great exercise to do.
It's also got me excited to create another character soonish. Although I can foresee even more problems with that one so we'll see.
I had a 25k tri count limit for my model and I managed to achieve a model at 24,992 tris. I managed to find a much better way to create a necklace than the one I showed above. I simply created one bead, unwrapped and textured it, then instanced it several times and aligned it to a line that I drew to represent the string. This was efficient as it meant I only had to texture and unwrap once which saved a lot of time, considering the way I showed above would've had me needing to unwrap 50+ beads individually. Thanks Mike for that tip.
I also modelled a basic dagger and created some alpha planes for the feather headress.
I re-unwrapped the character after encountering an issue with the previous one. This second unwrap worked much better.
I was allowed a total of 3 2048x2048 maps. One diffuse, one spec and one normal map.
This is an image that shows a bit of all three:
Final Render with wireframe:
Close-up render with wireframe:
Thanks again to everyone who commented on this thread, you all helped me a great deal.