Animation in video game is declining...
polycounter lvl 9
Hello, Polycounters.
I've been gaming since I can't remember and one thing that I would always pay attention when gaming is the character animation..
For me, when I was introduced to a new character in a game, I would always try to comprehend his personality based on his body motions and on his way of moving, physical features camed second.
Today, I'm still a gamer aspiring to work in the CG industry as an animator.
So of course, the Dreamworks and Pixar stuff always amazed me and I can't tell you how much I've spent time watching Disney and anime mvoies as a child.
However, as an animation admirer, I still paid attention on how characters were animated in video games and what can I say; it's overall kinda....
cheap...
Basically, today, if it's not uninteresting Mo-Cap, it's some really cheap average hand-keyed animation. I know animation is really costy as it takes tremendous times beore good results comes out. I'm not asking Pixar level animation but when you look at most games today, the animation feels really bland, generic, uninteresting, tasteless, not dynamic at all...
Some of you will be of disagreement with me, but I don't think games are quite ready for facial mo-cap yet...for me, it feels too much uncanny, espcially considering we can't have all the face subtle movements with facial motion capture because of the polygon count limitations...
Whether it is LA NOIRE, The last of Us, Beyond, or whatever ''revolutionnary game mo-cap system, it still and will always look uncanny for a long time before we get something convincing...
I always wanted to be a game animator but considering how game animators are given so little time to animate and how every thing is done in mo-cap to save time, I'm kinda aiming the films right now.
Of courses, some few games stand out like the God of war serie which brought a huge leap in terms of in-game animation when the first game came out, the jak and daxter series, ratchet and also Kingdom Hearts which brought some convincing facial animation at the time but nowadays, I can't seem to find any game which animation stands out from the rest...
What do you think? I'm I Totaly ignorant on the subject or...?
Ths is what inspires me:
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Giqgq-pgq0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Giqgq-pgq0[/ame]
Can I hope to see more of this in the future?
I've been gaming since I can't remember and one thing that I would always pay attention when gaming is the character animation..
For me, when I was introduced to a new character in a game, I would always try to comprehend his personality based on his body motions and on his way of moving, physical features camed second.
Today, I'm still a gamer aspiring to work in the CG industry as an animator.
So of course, the Dreamworks and Pixar stuff always amazed me and I can't tell you how much I've spent time watching Disney and anime mvoies as a child.
However, as an animation admirer, I still paid attention on how characters were animated in video games and what can I say; it's overall kinda....
cheap...
Basically, today, if it's not uninteresting Mo-Cap, it's some really cheap average hand-keyed animation. I know animation is really costy as it takes tremendous times beore good results comes out. I'm not asking Pixar level animation but when you look at most games today, the animation feels really bland, generic, uninteresting, tasteless, not dynamic at all...
Some of you will be of disagreement with me, but I don't think games are quite ready for facial mo-cap yet...for me, it feels too much uncanny, espcially considering we can't have all the face subtle movements with facial motion capture because of the polygon count limitations...
Whether it is LA NOIRE, The last of Us, Beyond, or whatever ''revolutionnary game mo-cap system, it still and will always look uncanny for a long time before we get something convincing...
I always wanted to be a game animator but considering how game animators are given so little time to animate and how every thing is done in mo-cap to save time, I'm kinda aiming the films right now.
Of courses, some few games stand out like the God of war serie which brought a huge leap in terms of in-game animation when the first game came out, the jak and daxter series, ratchet and also Kingdom Hearts which brought some convincing facial animation at the time but nowadays, I can't seem to find any game which animation stands out from the rest...
What do you think? I'm I Totaly ignorant on the subject or...?
Ths is what inspires me:
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Giqgq-pgq0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Giqgq-pgq0[/ame]Can I hope to see more of this in the future?
Replies
Animating for games and animating for films are quite different things. If you prefer the process of acting out custom scenes and really delivering on emotion and storytelling, then games may not be for you (additionally you could work close to the video game world by working on cinematics or such).
Animation is games is a weird thing, because the games that like to show off their animations are the ones that are nearing the uncanny valley and often failing. When animation is great in games, you don't necessarily notice it, but combat feels solid, and there's for and impact behind every move (Dark Souls 1 and 2). There's games that get away with crappy animation like Skyrim. You just have to look in the right places to find something inspiring.
Or check out other animators on polycount, they are always doing something amazing.
By the way, that fighting loop is awesome!
Also, to answer the first post, I did work on a game on whcih I was the animator for a student project so I know how loops and animation blending works, but still.
1) Game animation needs to look good from all angles, where as in film it's just the shot that matters.
2) For most people and studios, gameplay is more important than extremely fluid animation in games. Animation is often sacrificed for responsive player control and readability.
3) There are just so many variables involved, I'd wager that resources and time being two of the main aspects in regards to getting Pixar quality animation in games due to the fact that it's just way more work. You can't cheat a lot of things that you can otherwise do in films given the nature of games.
There are many more reasons, I've just listed a few. Animating for games has it's own unique challenges that does not make it a lesser form of animation when compared to CG films/animations.
Not that I want to send you to another forum, but they do have a strong community of animators with monthly contests.
Game animation will always be battling compression,and require a VERY heavy technical skillset, and understanding of compression and such.
I see a lot of animators head from game to films, but not a lot coming back to Games.
Video games have to work within the engine. Engines will often have a pretty strict series of requirements for rigs that constrain them to a set number of joints, controls, etc. These requirements don't affect how good or bad the animators are, but it does affect how polished the character will look in motion.
Add on top of that the fact that video game animation has to use canned cycles, and that films animate each motion specifically for the scene in question (with a few exceptions, films DO copy some animation of course). There's a lot of really good animation in video games, but there are a ton of limitations in games that stop it from being capable of ever reaching Pixar quality.
And if you're talking about facial animation, specifically, that's an even more complex issue and a MUCH more difficult thing to conquer effectively in games due to rig, time, and several other restrictions.
A lot of the employees who do animation in games have worked in film before, and several have even worked for Pixar and DreamWorks before. Those people know how to animate and do so with extreme proficiency, but if one single game designer decides to make a character move at 5 MPH instead of 4 MPH, it can make the animation look completely wrong. Not that good animation in games isn't possible or anything, but it's not as simple an issue as one might think.
But with restrictions, you also get the designers telling you get, they need to do this attack in 4 frames. Doesnt leave a lot of time for anticipation and what not.
But saying all game animation is crap now is a pretty terrible statement. Ya, mocap is used a lot, but I dont think you realize how much hand keying is involved in mocap. And how much the animator actually adjusts mocap. But even games with heavy mocap, most combat stuff goes back to being hand keyed to get that snappy responsiveness that players need. All creatures are always hand keyed.
Plus, depending on the studio and what not, most in game animations, you are hardly given 8 hours to do it.
You brought up god of war 1... does that mean yo dont think the animation in GoW3 was any good? Or do you just think it wasnt ground breaking? You can only break the ground so many times... That doesnt mean following the same techiques in a later game make the animations any less good. You`re just use to seeing them now.
It was the problem with Kingdoms of Amalur. Here is a great write up on it.
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/05/24/the-amalur-problem/
I just find it odd that most developpers are always tring to push the technical boundaries of engines so they can craft realistic 3d characters or environments but don't necessarily try to improve the animation technical aspects.
I will read your article on amalur. Seems interesting.
People here seem to be implying that having characters snapping frames is the biggest difficulty....
Really?
It just means you can't do fluid animation, and instead you have to substitute it for super pose oriented snappy animation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOpZrcZpjQM
Animation in games is a dark art, and it breaks rules, but it's partly why it is so goddamn interesting.
Why not give a character like 5 walk cycle, with different motions. Every time you would push the stick forward, it would randomly make the character move between different types of cycles to add diversity.
So for it to be work it has to be so subtle it would be un-noticable.
Also file sizes.
A lot of this only makes sense when you have to start considering game design.
Plus, people dont generally run differently every time unless they try to. they have the motion that they are use to, and they stick to that. Lots of games have jogs and runs though to add a variety for different speeds.
I've worked on a game once in a class project. I collaborated the game design document which explained every mechanic from the game, the lighting system, animation, particles engine,etc.
My task in the production was to rig and animate the characters and integrate them into the engine, and I didnt see any ''solid wall'' that would counter the suggestions I made here.
[ame="
It's not that great but it's just to prove I'm not giving bull*...
For indie game, I can comprehend they don't wanna lose time with but When I look at AAA sutdios games, I sincerely think they could have done a better job in the animation departments overall( of course there are tons of exceptions).
Drastic improvements have been made graphically and visually on games. Whether it is the polycounts, the texture resolution, the dynamic lighting setup, the particles systems, the frame rate,etc. they are always raising the bar ,but I still haven't seen any improvement in the animation
AAA Devs can't allow that their game graphics to look like a 2000 game but they allow that their game animation does? Find the error...
lol wat.
I think you need to go back and look at your year 2000 games again...
Man, go get into the speed animation thread and start making some stuff
What are some limitations you are bumping into? What game engines and animation systems have you used? I've been working in the industry since 2000 and while the 12 principles of motion haven't changed the technology behind real-time game animation improved drastically. I remember game engines not supporting bones, and all animations had to be exported as baked vertices.
You are complaining about lack of advancement, but at the same time saying a new technology like facial mo-cap isn't needed. I suspect the project you worked on had a student programmer that blamed the game engine when you expressed your concern over the playback quality. Modern game engines support real-time retargeting, node based animation blending, IK, and bone layering/filtering. Unity does all this and more as well.
Here's a few popular animation systems, I've used them all in different projects:
http://www.naturalmotion.com/middleware/
http://gameware.autodesk.com/humanik/
http://havok.com/products/animation
http://www.radgametools.com/granny.html
And of course Unreal4, CryEngine3, and Unity all have their own built in systems as well.
I think you need to wrap your head around some of the more technical aspects of creating animations for games.
http://jeremyernst.com/
http://vimeo.com/69875285
When you hit the same level as these two, I think your dismissive attitude could be warranted (but probably never appreciated).
Check this out:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZcUvU8YWc
Amazing, check out the section about wrist twists, and the "oh I just coded up a phaux muscle system that works on a PS3 because it bakes down to bones". I personally look forward to seeing what they do with hardware that isn't 10 years old...
But mocap is so easy it does everything!
umm... no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huRvwBf7qhY
http://vimeo.com/70312785
Also, comparing games to feature films isn't fair, Even though there is a lot of overlap between the two and the gap is getting smaller and smaller, they don't play by the same rules.
Take a feature film toss it in a blender and animate it in 1 second chunks so that every animation can link to just about every other animation. Now break it up to upper/lower torso, right/left arms and separate the head animations. Create blending trees for everything and it better all blend and flow right. Now, hand control of what animation plays when to an blind elliptic monkey who thinks tea bagging plants for 3hrs is a good time, AND then try to tell the same story with the same fluidity.
I'd have to agree with your post though, it's not fair to devs to compare two completely different mediums like that then assume their work isn't top notch. That video on the animation pipeline used in Gears of War 3 was insane and reminds me that I have a lot to learn.
There's a lot of great stuff out there Blond, I just don't think you're seeing it.
if you look at bf3/4 campaigns, the animation in there is pretty amazing as well,extremely fluid and looks great.
I remember a lot of the old 2005 era animations on ps2 being super janky, minus exceptions like god of war and ratchet etc.
I'm gladd I've had some good replies from you.
And you're right, I really don't want to turn into that guy who can thinks he can do better when he never really did much..
A real human being and a real hero.
Imagine trying to animate fluid controls without 'interruption' or 'blending' systems, no IK for rolling terrain, and 30 biped rigs with DIFFERENT proportions yet all having to somehow share the same animation sets.
(I'm not sure if that's what they actually used, but it wouldn't shock me if their constraints were similar to that).
BTW, calling out 2 Games of the Year is a bit silly. I think it's pretty safe to say Bethesda knows what they're doing, and what they're sacrificing, to get the type of game they want.
I personally am fine with decent models/animations if the game play makes up for it.
Criticizing and critiquing any game is valid, even if they have a dated animation system that's hard to work with, and they are sacrificing animation in order to save time and performance, that's the studios choice and it's fair to compare their animation quality to other AAA games. Whitcher 2 had vastly better animation, but also had similarly large towns with many characters.
Skyrim, Oblivion, and Fallout, all have very poor animation that feels like you are interacting with cardboard cutouts. One example in Skyrim that really stood out to me, there was one character that was cowering in fear hiding behind a locked door, but as soon as the door opens he's standing awkwardly straight up with a blank face and no emotion.
They are great games but for there is obviously poor animation despite it's system, mostly for your character which is generally standardized, I've seen mods(and used) that improve all of those animations that are fan made, they even make dance and sex mods that have at least better animation than a lot of the default ones work. I think one of the biggest offenders is the jumping animation for characters in 3rd person. You pretty much just float upwards and raise your legs. I think I'll remember that in EVERY one of those games as something that stands out for the rest of my life.
I don't really care but those games did have bad animation, while the gameplay was good, the rest was not, even then the gameplay could have been better, overall (again I love the games anyways) they felt clunky and awkward. Skyrim was a massive step forward but still a large step behind a lot of other studios. If they just used someone else's engine instead of trying to fuck with gamebyro they would be in a better position. Maybe all that money they put into that would let them hire better and more artists. (no offense if you worked there
While I do feel they area amazing games, and Oblivion is one of my all time favorites, and Falllout is high up there. You have to look at some of the art as well, it's not that great, I will say the engine is not the most user friendly but take this for example. I mean come on.
This is largely true. Many times in AAA development you get 1 day to make something.
Eh? I love Borderlands' art. I don't recall any massive eye sores.
I think that's all a matter of taste. Or a lack of taste :P.
You know, this thread was more of a way to engage people to talk about the developpment and progress of animations in video games (I was not trying to bitch it, I just gave my point of view).
don't worry, if you work on it you can develop one
I'm not sure but if you were talking to me, I do wish to animate a game character on a project.
However, all of this animation blending stuff sometimes scares me.
Really, how do some games manages to get some smooth transition while the responsiveness still stays playable and why some others have jagged quirky transitions...
Has anyone here ever worked on a game animation and could give me some explanation?
I did work on a little project but unity blended the animation automatically (it gave some mechanical result). Is it possible to make a blend animation for every transition in the game?
I think it would be best that you get a Digital-tutors subscription or something similar and educate yourself on Animation in video game development. It's a lot different compared to traditional animation for TV and film. Also, your view on Mocap being 'Uninteresting' will need to change very quickly. You'll find that more and more games are taking the Mocap method of capturing animation.