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Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data

Why I won't be buying an XBOX [1] or any device necessarily related to Microsoft's product line for the future.

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  • okkun
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    okkun polycounter lvl 18
    That's hardly a Microsoft exclusive issue. They're legally compelled to comply with these requests. Go talk to the gub'ment
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 18
    There are options. You can host your own email server for example.
  • joe gracey
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    joe gracey polycounter lvl 11
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    Why is this even news, everything you do, is watched, even if you cross the street they could pin you down with satellites.

    Is this a joke or what ? what do people think the NSA does ?
  • leleuxart
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    leleuxart polycounter lvl 10
    Most of the issues in the article seemed to deal with Outlook.

    What's Outlook? *shrug*
  • Alphavader
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    Alphavader polycounter lvl 11
    peanut™ wrote: »
    Why is this even news, everything you do, is watched, even if you cross the street they could pin you down with satellites.

    Is this a joke or what ? what do people think the NSA does ?

    amen.

    Just a matter of time, when big company's start pointing fingers each other and USA isnt that "bad" anymore.. I bet google,apple, and so on - do and done this all the time.

    Also People should realize that nothing is for free - and they shouldnt share their whole life with the internet community.
  • GarageBay9
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    GarageBay9 polycounter lvl 13
    leleuxart wrote: »
    Most of the issues in the article seemed to deal with Outlook.

    What's Outlook? *shrug*

    I stopped using Outlook ten years ago when it kept gleefully handing over my computer to unsavory email attachments before I could delete them.
  • Mark Dygert
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    leleuxart wrote: »
    Most of the issues in the article seemed to deal with Outlook.

    What's Outlook? *shrug*

    Go to hotmail.com and fnd out?
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    I'm fine with companies being able to use our data if we use their services, I'm not fine with the government being able to monitor every recordable thing I do.
  • Zwebbie
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    Zwebbie polycounter lvl 18
    I'm even less fine with someone else's government doing so.
  • VelvetElvis
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    VelvetElvis polycounter lvl 12
    As if everyone lives such amazing lives that the government just is in awe watching you. Get over yourselves, you are boring and dull like the rest of us. If an agent had to watch one hour of the average person's life, they'd go jump out a window somewhere.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    They aren't actively watching everyone, they are passively going through terabytes of data at taxpayers expense, with the goal of preventing terrorism. "With great power comes great responsibility" and historically the USA hasn't been very responsible.
  • maximumsproductions
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    maximumsproductions polycounter lvl 8
    lol, made me picture every NSA agent in white rooms full of camera feedback across the globe. I'd certainly hope me singing in shower baths isn't awe worthy to watch on the cable fiber cam tied around my shower curtain

    matrix-architect.jpg
  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about people like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden.
  • wasker
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    wasker polycounter lvl 7
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    leleuxart wrote: »
    Most of the issues in the article seemed to deal with Outlook.

    What's Outlook? *shrug*
    Comments like these make me wonder if artists even spend 5 minutes watching or reading the news outside of the latest tutorial on eat3D.
  • danshewan
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    danshewan polycounter lvl 8
    As if everyone lives such amazing lives that the government just is in awe watching you. Get over yourselves, you are boring and dull like the rest of us. If an agent had to watch one hour of the average person's life, they'd go jump out a window somewhere.

    Are you deliberately trolling, or just spectacularly ignorant?

    In several cases, the NSA has monitored the phone calls of American citizens in real time. From an article in Wired magazine, quoting Adrienne J. Kinne, a "voice interceptor" for the NSA:
    ...in the wake of the World Trade Center attacks “basically all rules were thrown out the window, and they would use any excuse to justify a waiver to spy on Americans.” Even journalists calling home from overseas were included. “A lot of time you could tell they were calling their families,” she says, “incredibly intimate, personal conversations.” Kinne found the act of eavesdropping on innocent fellow citizens personally distressing. “It’s almost like going through and finding somebody’s diary,” she says.

    Granted, journalists could be seen as significantly more of a "risk" to "national security" than the average citizen, but that doesn't mean their rights should be infringed upon any more readily.

    People should be free to say whatever they damn well please without fear of their phone calls being intercepted, or their emails read. This is precisely what the Fourth Amendment was designed to protect.

    The fact that so many Americans are completely okay with this, and put bunting up around their fucking houses last week without giving a second thought to how their once-great country has been stolen from them, makes me fucking sick.
  • maximumsproductions
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    maximumsproductions polycounter lvl 8
    danshewan wrote: »
    Are you deliberately trolling, or just spectacularly ignorant?

    It's not the first time he posts something like this. Spending your time educating him on basic ideas just doesn't seem worth it.. I would respect his opinion if he actually put thought into a post about infringing rights.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    Yes, I'm pretty sure every member of the G8 and more have a similar spying program and it sucks.
  • danshewan
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    danshewan polycounter lvl 8
    Yes, I'm pretty sure every member of the G8 and more have a similar spying program and it sucks.

    Yeah, it really does. Aside from several personal (and professional) reasons, one of the biggest motivating factors in my decision to leave the U.K. and move to the States was the supposed sanctity of the Constitution.

    As someone who voluntarily moved here to escape the police state tactics and (so I thought) unprecedented surveillance of the British government, imagine my horror to discover things are perhaps even worse here.

    It's been a very, very hard decision to reconcile, but I remind myself of the fact that even Canada - once seen as the sane neighbor to the north - is almost just as bad.

    Seems there's no escaping it wherever we choose to go, but I still haven't resigned myself to the fact that everyone should just accept it in the name of imaginary threats and government smokescreens about the extent of the real "threats."
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    danshewan wrote: »
    Yeah, it really does. Aside from several personal (and professional) reasons, one of the biggest motivating factors in my decision to leave the U.K. and move to the States was the supposed sanctity of the Constitution.

    Unfortunately there's a joint effort by progressives and neocons to undermine the US constitution (often while they undermine eachother) and build up the size and power of the federal government.

    We even have groups calling for anarchy as a means to cause enough chaos that more power can be grabbed and or new forms of government achieved.

    We can trace a lot of it back to the early 1900's with the influx of fabian socialist who ended up finding their place in politics.

    The good news is that the growth of libertarianism and more anti-establishment groups are forming. So only time will tell if this is remedied or not. If not then yeah the US wont be a very good safe haven at all.
  • leleuxart
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    leleuxart polycounter lvl 10
    Go to hotmail.com and fnd out?
    Ace-Angel wrote: »
    Comments like these make me wonder if artists even spend 5 minutes watching or reading the news outside of the latest tutorial on eat3D.


    Comments like these make me question the sense of humor of some people on this site. It was a joke. You know, because Outlook is old...? Calm down.
  • Calabi
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    Calabi polycounter lvl 12
    As if everyone lives such amazing lives that the government just is in awe watching you. Get over yourselves, you are boring and dull like the rest of us. If an agent had to watch one hour of the average person's life, they'd go jump out a window somewhere.

    Yeah thats why they just have software that sorts it out and keep it as an archive forever. Maybe you've said something offensive to your mates in a private email.

    Your in an important position in the future, they use this against you.

    No matter how innocent you think you are, they could find evidence to use against you(they could even fabricate it).

    People are stupid if they trust anyone with information about them. Even if somehow information about you personally is of no merit. The information of the whole group could be very useful.
  • JohnnyRaptor
  • Mark Dygert
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    MIcrosoft also helped set up the "Domain Awareness" system in lower manhattan, thousands of cameras and software watching autonomously for things like backpacks being left unattended, running everyones license plates, makes and models of cars, facial recognition and tracking and so on.

    MS and NYC are bundling the system and selling it to other cities around the world, they split the profits something like 70/30.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • Mark Dygert
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    The watchmen?

    Oh damn they aren't real...
  • danshewan
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    danshewan polycounter lvl 8

    As much as I personally disapprove of the applications of a lot of their stuff, DARPA has some awesomely cool shit. Like this robot, for instance.
  • Dazz3r
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    Dazz3r polycounter lvl 12
    Dataday wrote: »
    Unfortunately there's a joint effort by progressives and neocons to undermine the US constitution (often while they undermine eachother) and build up the size and power of the federal government.

    We even have groups calling for anarchy as a means to cause enough chaos that more power can be grabbed and or new forms of government achieved.

    We can trace a lot of it back to the early 1900's with the influx of fabian socialist who ended up finding their place in politics.

    The good news is that the growth of libertarianism and more anti-establishment groups are forming. So only time will tell if this is remedied or not. If not then yeah the US wont be a very good safe haven at all.

    No, a progressive would be against such an intrusion on rights, I like to think of myself as a progressive and I'm horrified by such police state style government policies
  • CrazyMatt
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    Edit, this thing told me my post was too short :O
  • CrazyMatt
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    Jesse Ventura's show that got banned with only 1 time aired publicly on television before the government found out about it.
    -> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX5tHkqS6C4"]Banned Episode-Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura - NWO Police State - YouTube[/ame]
    -
    Just to elaborate a bit more to the point but better heard than dramatized.
    ->[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpDRoYlcfLM"]Jesse Ventura : WikiLeaks Expose 9/11 Truth & CIA's Horrifying Torture - YouTube[/ame]
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Annnnd.

    The thread goes downhill.
  • Overlord
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    There are two main reasons the NSA is doing this, money and power. The government, which is owned tacitly by the corporations, wants to stay in power because the government alone has the power to force people to pay taxes that can be subsequently used to give big profits to military and security contractors. They can't justify this constant police and military build up without an ephemeral boogie-man to trump up as an excuse.

    1. Make up a fake threat that can neither be defeated nor defused.
    2. Whip up the populace into abject fear by hyper-focusing on negative news.
    3. Then leverage that fear to justify all sorts of spending on security.
    4. Make the citizens into the enemy and erode their rights incrementally so most people won't notice.
    5. Anybody whistle blower (Snowden, Manning, Assange) will be branded a terrorist and threat to the people. Possibly claiming their actions are aiding the enemy that "hates our freedom".
    6. Rinse and repeat.

    Honestly, a lot of the "wars" our government is fighting are just ways to justify jobs (DEA), profits (military contractors), and power (political dynasties).
  • ikken
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    microsoft are doing a beautiful job inspiring future tila tequila facebook updates

    There has been a secret experiment conducted with the masses called "Social Engineering" which is used on social media networks. There are certain things they do that the people don't know about to basically get everyone to hate everyone online therefor start to hate the world as a whole in general. To engineer a breed of hateful, violent, and desensitized humans. A lot of times there will even be fake profiles aka the drones that are programmed out there to specifically target certain people. So beware, and don't let anything from social medias get to you. All of that hatred build up from a cruel, and sadistic experiment on human behavior is not worth effecting your real life. So next time you feel negative energies from people online remember not to let it get to you because it's part of the social engineering experiment. Just thought I'd let you know.
  • Bibendum
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    Overlord wrote: »
    There are two main reasons the NSA is doing this, money and power. The government, which is owned tacitly by the corporations, wants to stay in power because the government alone has the power to force people to pay taxes that can be subsequently used to give big profits to military and security contractors. They can't justify this constant police and military build up without an ephemeral boogie-man to trump up as an excuse.
    The U.S. spends more money on education than it does on the military. But to give you the benefit of the doubt I'll assume you only meant the federal government (even though state and local governments collect your taxes just fine!), in which case defense spending still only makes up a fifth of what the government actually spends money on. The overwhelming majority of your taxes go to entitlement spending.

    And you can expect that to shrink because defense was disproportionately the largest recipient of cuts in the sequester. "The government" cut the defense budget by $42 billion with more automatic cuts coming in the next few years to keep defense spending basically flat until 2020.

    Also worth pointing out that at less than 5% of our GDP, we're currently spending less money on defense than at any other wartime period in the last 100 years.

    I think it's time people started migrating their conspiracy theories away from the military to the Medical Industrial Complex.

    Edit: Apparently war was really cheap in the 1800s.
  • Overlord
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    @Bibendum

    It doesn't matter how much of the GDP goes to military, it's still very profitable for those involved and as long as there's profit for those industries, they will want to sustain anything that will keep the Feds buying contracts. Besides that, I wasn't just talking about military. There's the NSA, DHS, DEA, CIA, and other Federal security/police. None of those agencies of the Federal government would be so significant if not for the rampant fear and paranoia that people are fed.

    It's not about the percentage of taxes, it's about creating an industry that's larger and agencies that are more powerful than they should ever have been just so those that stand to profit can have more profit. As I said, "regulatory capture" is a problem and it's potential for harm is independent of its funding. The best customers in the US is the government because they have lots of money to spend, thanks to mandatory taxes. So all that's needed for government security and military contractors to form a profitable industry is to create a desperate need for such an industry. Also, it's about the fallout of such practices, because even the least funded agencies can do immense harm to the people's civil rights if given a long enough leash.

    The Federal government is basically one huge piggy bank that has mandatory depositors and every industry will do whatever it takes to get a piece of that, which includes creating unsubstantiated terror and trampling on civil rights.
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    On a side note, im not a big twitter fan but i just came across this twitter page, have a look for yourself

    https://twitter.com/search?q=EJosephSnowden&src=typd


    :D
  • Bibendum
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    Overlord wrote: »
    @Bibendum

    It doesn't matter how much of the GDP goes to military, it's still very profitable for those involved and as long as there's profit for those industries, they will want to sustain anything that will keep the Feds buying contracts. Besides that, I wasn't just talking about military. There's the NSA, DHS, DEA, CIA, and other Federal security/police. None of those agencies of the Federal government would be so significant if not for the rampant fear and paranoia that people are fed.

    It's not about the percentage of taxes, it's about creating an industry that's larger and agencies that are more powerful than they should ever have been just so those that stand to profit can have more profit. As I said, "regulatory capture" is a problem and it's potential for harm is independent of its funding. The best customers in the US is the government because they have lots of money to spend, thanks to mandatory taxes. So all that's needed for government security and military contractors to form a profitable industry is to create a desperate need for such an industry. Also, it's about the fallout of such practices, because even the least funded agencies can do immense harm to the people's civil rights if given a long enough leash.

    The Federal government is basically one huge piggy bank that has mandatory depositors and every industry will do whatever it takes to get a piece of that, which includes creating unsubstantiated terror and trampling on civil rights.
    CIA/NSA aside those account for like 2% of the federal budget. DHS/DEA budgets are both shrinking. And yes proportion matters if you're going to make the claim that these bussinesses have enough power to turn politicians into puppets and control the national narrative to squeeze more profits from taxpayers.

    The fact that the military NEEDS money that those businesses you're describing would reap profits from and can't get it because politicians are hopelessly gridlocked should tell you exactly how effective that "regulatory capture" is.

    Every narrative benefits somebody, "safeguarding the nation at any cost" plays big with conservatives so Fox News spreads that shit like herpes. Others benefit from the narrative that the nation is under attack by misinformation campaigns from corporations. Ron Paul benefits from the narrative that the federal reserve pulls money out of its ass and inflates away your savings.

    Just because somebody benefits doesn't mean it's part of some cynical plot to undermine the political process and funnel cash somewhere.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    Dazz3r wrote: »
    No, a progressive would be against such an intrusion on rights, I like to think of myself as a progressive and I'm horrified by such police state style government policies

    You might be more of a libertarian then.

    I highly recommend looking up where progressives came from, their "era" in the early 1900s in which they existed in both parties and had complete, almost dictator like control. What resulted was a re-segregation of blacks from whites, confiscation of private property and gold from the citizens by the government, executive orders stopping all enforcement of anti-trust laws so the leadership could appoint who is successful and who isnt, eugenics which lead to creation of planned parenthood, even partnerships with a budding nazi germany. The early era progressives helped create and build up the technique known as propaganda, which relies on appealing to sentiment to gain support (and it works, but is easily abused). FDR was probably the closest thing the US had to a dictator.

    That is why its so surprising to see many take up the mantle of that group again, I just begin to think they dont now about the origin of the progressive movement or where it came from (fabian socialist immigrants). Ultimately it leads to less individual and civil liberties in favor or a more collectivist approach with a big emphasis on the unions and those in power. They are very intrusive.

    History and an observation of actions are the best thing to go by. Again, look up the history and the actions done by that group, it was never about opposing an intrusion on rights, but rather the complete opposite. Their earliest philosophers outright rejected the founding fathers of the US, claiming that any claim to freedom as a natural right is nothing short of mythological. They believed that government, as a divine power of sorts, should be able to guide and lead people in the right direction. Sadly that direction is whatever they or who is in power sees fit.

    Anyways, I think its important that we as americans realize that there is a general push to take away liberties and undermine the constitution by both sides, and that many of yesterdays villains are coming back into the lime light due to the next generation forgetting what the past generations went through.
  • repete
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    repete polycounter lvl 6
    Dam that robot does look cool but it's also bloody freaky how far they have come, give it ten years and these things will really start to freak us out.
    danshewan wrote: »
    As much as I personally disapprove of the applications of a lot of their stuff, DARPA has some awesomely cool shit. Like this robot, for instance.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Dataday wrote: »
    You might be more of a libertarian then.

    I highly recommend looking up where progressives came from, their "era" in the early 1900s in which they existed in both parties and had complete, almost dictator like control. What resulted was a re-segregation of blacks from whites, confiscation of private property and gold from the citizens by the government, executive orders stopping all enforcement of anti-trust laws so the leadership could appoint who is successful and who isnt, eugenics which lead to creation of planned parenthood, even partnerships with a budding nazi germany. The early era progressives helped create and build up the technique known as propaganda, which relies on appealing to sentiment to gain support (and it works, but is easily abused). FDR was probably the closest thing the US had to a dictator.

    That is why its so surprising to see many take up the mantle of that group again, I just begin to think they dont now about the origin of the progressive movement or where it came from (fabian socialist immigrants). Ultimately it leads to less individual and civil liberties in favor or a more collectivist approach with a big emphasis on the unions and those in power. They are very intrusive.

    You are confusing the Progressive Era with the modern terminology of the use of Progressive. Its the same thing people use to demonize democrats because they used to be the party of segregation because of dixiecrats.

    Please stop and get with the 21st century.
  • blancaruby
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    Looks like Bill Gates wants to rule all computers and networks.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    oXYnary wrote: »
    You are confusing the Progressive Era with the modern terminology of the use of Progressive. Its the same thing people use to demonize democrats because they used to be the party of segregation because of dixiecrats.

    Please stop and get with the 21st century.

    I am doing no such thing. Please recognize you may have a confirmation bias which you can use to overlook or excuse the current parties involved.

    Both parties can be demonized equally as they both stem from the same party and have followed the same over all path, though one is running a bit faster than the other.
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    Bibendum wrote: »
    The U.S. spends more money on education than it does on the military...
    Not entirely sure where that assumption comes from but they don't appear to be in any way correct, Education is part of the "Discretionary" segment of the budget which can/is used for other spends. Overall budget spending is very Interesting;
    - US Budget splits (piechart )
    - GPO Budget reports, Budget report for 2013, for 2014
    - Can't vouch for this source but the picture is interesting
    - again can't vouch but interesting representation of the numbers
  • EarthQuake
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    Oh look, a flame-baiting political thread on polycount. Great job.
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