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"They Don't Want You"

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MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
This is by an animation school prof.

http://mayersononanimation.blogspot.com/2013/04/they-dont-want-you.html?spref=tw
Their money comes from the audience: you and me. So long as we give them money, they won't change. As long as the skills chase the money, nothing will change. But if the skills can get their money from the audience, everything will change.

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  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    This is by an animation school prof.

    after reading this ranty piece I found this hard to believe. Sources? References to back up your claims? sounds like your typical "the industry sucks and we're all doomed" piece that pops up here on PC from time to time. No doubt, it probably resonates well with a certain audience.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Wow. Just finished reading the commentaries. Sheridan animation school got slammed by what looks like ex-students.
    So these kids got out, and no sh#$% no one wanted them.

    Those who succeeded dug for info online, from websites of pixar/Dreamworks animators, Cal Arts etc. Cause that's the level the industry wants.

    Lots of kids after Sheridan are now paying for animation mentor and iAnimate to continue to learn. Because 4 years at sheridan, were not enough. Not that animation mentor or iAnimate guarantees a job these days either, but the reels DO look better for what it's worth.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Kwramm wrote: »
    after reading this ranty piece....

    I don't know this guy personally but he's been "vocal" online in animation forums/ blogosphere.

    Context maybe I can offer....Sheridan, is or was an elite 2D animation school, that used to just do a 2yr program. They then switched to a B.A. 4-yr program and opened the floodgates to more students many of whom aren't really prepped for hard core art school learning (they diluted their courses with gamedev classes). Basically, school became business agressive like for-profits and guys like Mayerson, the author, has been concerned faculty issues weren't addressed by the school admins.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    so you're saying his real target is the school? I'm still trying to figure out where he wants to go with this. Obviously there's some truth in the article, but I don't find it very well argued or supported. If we could back all this up it would be quite interesting to discuss. Also it would be interesting to hear how he thinks his proposed solution could be implemented in practice when it comes to large scale film and games production.
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    You are talking about Sheridan community college? Or there is another Sheridan animation school pvt.

    In Theory; The story behind colleges is that, you are going there to achieve a certain piece of paper that proves your qualification(s).

    I feel sorry for the people who whine after graduating from college as an animator, 3d artists, 2d artists, etc, about not getting a job, because they had the means to learn them yet they fail to realize that college wasnt suppose to be a walk through a certain passage where the job will be waiting for you at the end.

    It majorly depends on you to do those researches and boost up your skills, not rely on the skills that were taught in the college.

    Look around you, everything including the Game Industry itself is for-profit, why blame colleges where the Industry isnt willing to give many graduates a chance itself?
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    @Nitewalker: there's only one Sheridan. I don't know about their other programs but they're now a 4 yr degree granting institution/university for animation.

    @Kwramm. I think he's targeting their animation program and addressing industry-wide issues. It's not news for anyone working or connected to the entertainment industry. Only difference for people who haven't figured it out yet is opportunities already exist to bypas the big corporations for work or income. Crowdfunding? Low cost of entry to self-publish? Offer free to play and get your profits from ads/ merchandise/ licensing?
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    @Nitewalker: there's only one Sheridan. I don't know about their other programs but they're now a 4 yr degree granting institution/university for animation.

    @Kwramm. I think he's targeting their animation program and addressing industry-wide issues. It's not news for anyone working or connected to the entertainment industry. Only difference for people who haven't figured it out yet is opportunities already exist to bypas the big corporations for work or income. Crowdfunding? Low cost of entry to self-publish? Offer free to play and get your profits from ads/ merchandise/ licensing?

    Bachelors of Animation is highly in demand lad.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    Only difference for people who haven't figured it out yet is opportunities already exist to bypas the big corporations for work or income. Crowdfunding? Low cost of entry to self-publish? Offer free to play and get your profits from ads/ merchandise/ licensing?

    lol. So "go indie" is the solution? Haha, a decade ago it was called "freelance" but everyone knew you weren't ready yet to get hired. Nothing new here. Not a solution either. More like a duct-tape fix to stay afloat after being dropped from college into the real world.
    What he doesn't say is that mediocre people from mediocre schools won't cut it as indies either. Going indie is a chance for people who have skills and talent but just weren't lucky to be at the right place at the right time to get a job. But it's not a solution for the people just aren't ready yet artistically and/or professionally - the bad and mediocre guys who were just slacking in school and getting pushed through courses just so the institution could reap in some tuition.

    About licensensing, free to play - how does this work for AAA studios to get money directly to artists? The money, with those schemes, still ends up in the studio's/publisher's pocket first and only then it trickles down into the artist's pocket. And that seems to be his main complaint. Someone just has to manage the money and determine salaries when your company has a certain size. Or does he want to make every artist a stock holder and owner? Or tie everyone's salary directly to sales?
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    Kwramm wrote: »
    But it's not a solution for the people just aren't ready yet artistically and/or professionally

    I disagree.

    Even mediocre guys who know how to play social media and work the crowfunding sites can easily gain access to capital they need to move forward their career goals.

    Just look at some winners of Kickstarter for proof. Just look at who's making monthly mortgage payments via self-publishing on Amazon. Youtube mothergoose videos. Don't laugh. Check the viewer stats. Check the library of videos. These guys figured out there'll be a daily audience of babies in the millions who'll only eat their cereal if they're distracted by the videos. Production values are rising, comparing their old catalog with latest releases.

    I have a twitter follower who's 21. A nobody. No IMDB. No reel. He kickstarted he's short live action film. He didn't even have his script completed when he netted over $50K. I don't need to name names. He should still be on Kickstarter's successfully funded list. He piled up tweets about his sexual conquests, his shirtless "selfies", getting his red camera after his KS.

    It's not THE solution but it's one solution as alternative to expensive schools, volatile labor markets, globalization.
  • MagicSugar
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    MagicSugar polycounter lvl 10
    These guys who successfuly crowfunded their game are hiring by the way.

    http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/starforge
  • slipsius
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    slipsius mod
    The problem with this blog is that it's entirely true. ENTIRELY TRUE. Companies dont give a shit about their employees. Some try and do keep their employees happy, but when it comes down to it, each person is just a number. A salary. They aren't in the industry to make games. They are in the industry to make money. Pure a simple. Anyone who disagrees with that needs to open their eyes. Game companies are a business. Better games sell more copies which is why they want to make the best game they can. But just like movies, they dont care if its actually good. they only care if it sells. Yes, the people who ACTUALLY make the games. You, me, all the artists, programmers and what not. They care about the games, and it shows. But the higher ups in the company only see you as a salary number. Cost vs profit.

    Yes, there are lots of indies popping up that actually care more about the games than the money that comes with it. But I promise you every single indie still cares about the money. They need it to live. I dont think they care as much as AAA studios. But they still need to make a living and pay their bills, and no one wants to make a game that doesnt sell and everyone hates. Its just like when people say they didnt get into this industry for the money. That's false. If all you wanted to do was make games, you can do that on the side while you work another job. You got INTO the industry because the industry pays you to do what you love. Its a win win. I highly doubt any of you would take a severe pay cut, or go back to around minimum wage while still doing what you`re doing.

    The industry as a whole is about money. Pure and simple. The cogs in the machine care about their work and want it to do well, but thats as far as it goes, I think. I know people here will argue my points, but it's how I see it.
  • Mark Dygert
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    For the most part I think Stefan is right, the numbers really do speak the loudest to the people at the top. I think the majority do care about what kind of product they produce, its just as much a reputation issue as it is a financial incentive but that doesn't mean that all ideas get in or are compatible with mitigating risk.

    We could look at a suggestion or a problem and have a clear answer and that answer might make sense to gamers but it might not make sense to a studio head who has to balance it against everything else going on.

    Should we do this thing that will improve the visual quality of the game.

    Guys in the trenches: Was it my idea? Yes. Is it going to add more work to my already overloaded plate? No. Make it happen.

    Leads: What is this going to do to the delicately balanced distribution of work in our department? Do I need to coordinate with other departments to make sure this isn't a problem or is it self contained? Fuckin questions I don't have time to answer grr...

    Upper Management: How much of a risk is this? What else does it touch? How does it interplay between all of the other pieces we already have going on and what will be going in later? How much will it cost if everything goes smoothly? And if it blows up in our faces what are our escape routes and what do they cost? Fuck! We're already over worked and over budget. Damn it, you guys make my brain hurt, I need an assistant just to sift through your "urgent must read" spam, most of it is talk about when when taco truck is showing up? Funny someone using the Senor gato gif again, yea that's totally "urgent must read" material, god damn brainless monkeys... FIRED! YOU'RE ALL FIRED! Wait I need them to work I can't yell at them, what drawer was my scotch in?

    Studio heads: Give me the best game possible at the lowest cost. I don't care if that means shitting on someones good idea to make it out the door on time, just make it happen and don't make me or the studio look bad with bone headed mistakes.
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    slipsius wrote: »
    The problem with this blog is that it's entirely true. ENTIRELY TRUE. Companies dont give a shit about their employees. Some try and do keep their employees happy, but when it comes down to it, each person is just a number. A salary. They aren't in the industry to make games. They are in the industry to make money. Pure a simple. Anyone who disagrees with that needs to open their eyes. Game companies are a business. Better games sell more copies which is why they want to make the best game they can. But just like movies, they dont care if its actually good. they only care if it sells. Yes, the people who ACTUALLY make the games. You, me, all the artists, programmers and what not. They care about the games, and it shows. But the higher ups in the company only see you as a salary number. Cost vs profit.

    Yes, there are lots of indies popping up that actually care more about the games than the money that comes with it. But I promise you every single indie still cares about the money. They need it to live. I dont think they care as much as AAA studios. But they still need to make a living and pay their bills, and no one wants to make a game that doesnt sell and everyone hates. Its just like when people say they didnt get into this industry for the money. That's false. If all you wanted to do was make games, you can do that on the side while you work another job. You got INTO the industry because the industry pays you to do what you love. Its a win win. I highly doubt any of you would take a severe pay cut, or go back to around minimum wage while still doing what you`re doing.

    The industry as a whole is about money. Pure and simple. The cogs in the machine care about their work and want it to do well, but thats as far as it goes, I think. I know people here will argue my points, but it's how I see it.

    So like I was saying, everything including the Game Industry is For-Profit.

    Agreeing with sir Stephen; I do still believe that there are game companies who have a balance between their profit and employee care. Or they care more about their employees than their profit.
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 18
    MagicSugar wrote: »
    I disagree.

    Even mediocre guys who know how to play social media and work the crowfunding sites can easily gain access to capital they need to move forward their career goals.

    These are really hard skills to master also. Making 50K on Kickstarter is not a career. What you do with the 50K determines on if you move forward or not.

    Becoming a slimey business douche, or getting hired by indies is not the same as using your skills to make something and then selling directly to the audience -- which seems to be what the guy was writing about.
  • Gyrz
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    Nitewalkr wrote: »
    So like I was saying, everything including the Game Industry is For-Profit.

    Agreeing with sir Stephen; I do still believe that there are game companies who have a balance between their profit and employee care. Or they care more about their employees than their profit.


    Can you name it? What studios have balanced of their profit and employees. And who shows some respect to the people?
  • DrunkShaman
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    DrunkShaman polycounter lvl 14
    Gyrz wrote: »
    Can you name it? What studios have balanced of their profit and employees. And who shows some respect to the people?

    Grinding Gear Games
    RunicGames
    Wargaming.net

    These three are the ones I can think of currently. There must be more.

    EDIT: Also, employee care and respect are two different things.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Nitewalkr wrote: »
    So like I was saying, everything including the Game Industry is For-Profit..

    Very simplistic view of the world. There is profit enough to survive. Then there is profit for as much as possible. You will find more indies in the former then the later.

    Also. As it is. No. Not every game is for profit. Disregard this section of the industry if you want. It still exists.
    http://www.gamesforchange.org/

    http://www.dvenn.com/blog/2011/10/12/humanitarian-video-games-and-nonprofit-iphone-apps.html
  • slipsius
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    slipsius mod
    Well, here's the thing. There's studios that like to treat their employees nice and give them a bunch of cool shit to keep them happy (beer friday and fooze ball and such), but they tend to be the AAA studios that will ditch you the moment their stock holders want them to....
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    A studio that treats employees nicely is one that makes sure there's job security, paid overtime, clear strategy communication from top to bottom and minimal crunch. Friday beers is about the very last thing that comes to my mind when thinking about a "nice" studio. Beer costs them nothing. The rest does, if they put their money where their mouth is. Really people, please don't judge studios by superficial actions such as Friday beers or "hey, here is free papa john's with your unpaid overtime".
  • Calabi
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    Calabi polycounter lvl 12
    Gyrz wrote: »
    Can you name it? What studios have balanced of their profit and employees. And who shows some respect to the people?

    Nintendo.

    http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/5/4496512/why-nintendos-satoru-iwata-refuses-to-lay-off-staff
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