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the tools of the texture/shader artist trade

TactMasterZero
polycounter lvl 17
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TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
i'm a huge admirer of the environment artwork that Naughty Dog produces and i want to learn how to do what they do. i have no real advanced shader network creation experience to speak of, but i am aware that it's a thing. a thing i need to get intimately familiar with in order to be able to create environments that come close to having a chance at approximating the quality bar set by Naughy Dog...

I watched the Ben Cloward vids about shaders, along with whatever else i could find on the subject online. i found out that Naughty Dog uses Zbrush, Photoshop, Maya and the Hypershade to do their texture and shader creation, but what i am stuck on is how they layer and blend the stuff together...

is there a book or dvd i can buy that will explain how to blend tiling textures using the techniques Naughty Dog uses in Maya i.g. vertex paint, facing angles, ramps, RGB to HSV, layered shaders?... whatever the case may be?...

if there happens to be a texture/shader artist out there willing to list the most commonly used terms/tools/nodes in their arsenal, i would gratefully google those things and could hopefully learn about them that way at least maybe possibly...

thanks for taking the time to read this :)

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  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    what you need to know as far as shader go really depends on the engine, like in the case of naughty dog yes they use hyperShade in maya to create there shaders, but most of the nodes there using arent default maya nodes, there nodes they created in maya to work with there game engine.

    for doing things like the texture blends, they are useing vertex paint, more or less hooking up the vertex colour of a mesh into a linear interpolate between 2 textures. Usually with a few other things going on to make the edge of the blend nicer.

    if you really want to learn shaders, my suggestion would be to download UDK and work with the unreal shader editor included with it. It is a very powerful but simple to use node based editor for shaders.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    what are the textbooks or educational resource materials that they use to teach the kids at videogame school these days?... i'm hoping to find something maya specific (or UDK related) and artist friendly that focuses the different blending methods and the appropriate stituations to best utilize each of them...
  • Racer445
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    Racer445 polycounter lvl 12
    what are the textbooks or educational resource materials that they use to teach the kids at videogame school these days?..

    they don't?
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    ya what is taught at most schools is pretty lacking, really suggest you just fire up udk, and experiment with things.
  • Ace-Angel
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    Ace-Angel polycounter lvl 12
    Digital Tutors and Eat3D are you best bet honestly.
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    vector mathematics, trig, and a bit of the linear algebra and calculus don't hurt either.
    Lots of resources for those.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    my experience at a design school over 10 years ago was pretty disappointing. i have nothing but student loan debt and a useless degree to show for it. i've been trying to sharpen up whenever i could but haven't been able to make much progress... but i'm not bitter! :)

    anywhoo... can you recommend some Digital Tutors/Eat3d titles that will get me going?
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    these should help for the kinda stuff you mentioned.

    https://www.3dmotive.com/f100601

    there was a eat 3d one i remember but i cant find it. also https://www.imbuefx.com/ has some decent stuff.
  • dnc
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    dnc
    Hey all, a thread similar to this popped up a while ago.
    http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118365
    BOOP ( <- honestly this was necessary)

    This thread goes into some detail about some of the resources available and how to start up with HLSL in particular, which is possibly what Naughty Dog uses. But it is a good intro into the hard stuff, although the Ben Cloward DVDs probably have also taught you that.

    As for 3D schools, I have just finished my Degree (yep one of those) and they have taught us how to create shaders in UDK, they give quite a lot of support to this and in the industry in general this is probably one of the best ways to teach shaders. I personally was lucky enough to get a work placement for a year where I was taught HLSL and shaders, then ran with it on my own.

    Finallly shaders in Maya, well I would like to know how to achieve this as well. I get compoletely confused with what types of nodes I should be using. So if some one could point me into that direction I would be grateful.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    @Vailias - MATH??!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!... j/k

    I can see how Technical Artists would need to know that stuff, but do Texture Artists really use that much higher math in their duties?... If so, i guess i better get on it...
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    if you just want to model and texture you don't need to know this math, but if you want to work with shaders, effects or as a tech artist, than you will want to be brushing up on your vector math and trig.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    yeah, i really just want to be able to make pretty pictures :) i'm mostly a left-brained person. ...or is it right-brained?... whichever is the one that doesn't like math. :D

    thanks for the links and the insight, everybody!
  • s6
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    s6 polycounter lvl 10
    Racer445 wrote: »
    they don't?

    Laughed pretty good when i read that. Then cried, Cause its true. Currently in school for Game art and design and we don't even touch an engine....

    Good thing school is a slice of pie and I have tons of time to learn all the stuff they don't teach me. So...everything.


    As everyone is saying here, 3d motive, eat 3d, all that jazz will help a ton, But they just give you something to do while your learn nodes and all that. To really learn what they do and how they can apply to what you want to create, you need to get into the material editor and just start toying with it all.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    That 3dmotive link you posted looks to be what i need. thank you, passerby!
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    so, i guess for what i want to be able to do, i need to get inimately familiar with game engine material editors, not shader creation. i'm thinking the CryEngine one looks pretty neat...
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    is it easier to use than UDK?...
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    ah ok so not so much serious material creation, but more plug n play or very simple material setups. Much less maths for that.

    The whole "shader artist" thing suggested that you wanted to really get into material creation. Open up some of the default materials that come with UDK and you'll see the maths in action. That happy skybox with the rotating cloud layers and sun disk? All a single material, 2-3 textures and a lot of math to make it go.

    For texturing and such its, AFAIK, good old art skills and some technical pipeline understanding (what's a normalmap anyway? how do I vertex paint and why should I?)
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    yeah, i thought "shader artists" were the ones that connected the inputs and outputs of nodes together. i guess it's material editing, not material creating that i'm interested in? i'm just that ignorant :)

    i've been browsing the Eat3d, 3dmotive, Digital Tutors, and Gnomon websites looking for training vids, but it's hard to decide which vids are the right vids for me...
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    Ya some engines you got premade shaders with parameters for users to edit exposed, some you do all in hlsl code, than there are node based editors.

    udk's is node based and simple to use, since it takes care of the lighting and specular calculations for you, so you don't need to implement your own lighting model.

    Also you should just try things out before you let the M word scare you off. No one said you need to be a pro as vector math, linear algebra and trig. You just having some knowledge will help you and make you better at shader material creation.

    Seriously when i was a kid in high school i seriously regret actually listening to people, saying my math skills are too weak when i said i wanted to learn programming and some 3d. Since back than the reason why i sucked at things like trig, and linear algebra was because i had nothing of interest to apply the concepts too.

    Fast forward a few years and here i am i can program in 4 different languages, and can create shaders for multiple different games engines and hlsl shaders for maya.
  • Eric Chadwick
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    Material editing IS material creation. You can't edit without knowing what you want to achieve. Previous posts were good directions to go in.

    Open up UDK, examine the shader nodes, read the UDN wiki, experiment, ask questions. That's how most of us learned (probably with different tools, but the process is the same).
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    anyone know where i can get a glossary of industry terms?... :)
  • Eric Chadwick
  • s6
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    s6 polycounter lvl 10
    Open up UDK, examine the shader nodes, read the UDN wiki, experiment, ask questions. That's how most of us learned (probably with different tools, but the process is the same).
    .
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    yeah, i thought "shader artists" were the ones that connected the inputs and outputs of nodes together.

    The nodes are stand in's for mathematical and programmatic expressions.

    an add node = +
    a texcoods node = the euclidean plane in the UV dimensions
    etc.

    If you want to do more than plug textures into the existing outputs (diffuse to diffuse, normal to normal, etc) then you're going to need some mathematical understanding.

    Like passerby says, math is much more accessible when it has some direct connection to what you're doing rather than being rote calculation, or theoretical exploration of logic.

    3d vector mathematics is the most useful thing you can teach yourself for making custom materials, and knowing what node to hook into what other node.
  • m4dcow
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    m4dcow interpolator
    This describes the UDK material editor nodes, most of which can apply to other stuff.
    http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/MaterialsCompendium.html

    So you can open op UDK and mess around.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    thanks for helping to clarify the things i had questions about, everyone! i really appreciate you all taking the time to point me in the direction i ought to be facing, so to speak, as they say, if you will...

    ...anywhoo, i'm gonna immerse myself in the UDK stuff, as you have suggested :)
  • DireWolf
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    TactMaster - I personally learned the most by looking at other people's work. Especially here in Polycount you'll find tons of awesome game arts, many also include textures in their show case.

    If you want to start learning shading right away you can try grab some of the textures here and play with them in engine. They're also great reference if you want to learn texture creation.

    After that, just keep working. Work a lot. That's the only way to improve your skill.

    I personally am a big fan of Unity now. Some game modelers are publishing their work via Unity so they can be viewed real time right on websites. It's freaking awesome :) Check it out.

    http://www.gilbertomagno.com/MaxUnity.html


    Cheers.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    Oh MAN, that is WAY cooler than a jpeg!!
  • Msansook
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    Currently in school for a BS in Game Art and we are playing/studying a LOT in UDK, a little in Unity, and we are given actual textbooks along with a year's subscription to eat3D. Granted I'm about 6 months away from graduation... but there is definitely mucho bueno knowledge being passed around. Haha. Thoroughly enjoying this convo. I have gained a LOT of insight.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    the creative environment i experienced at school is something i haven't been able to recreate here at home, no matter how many action-figures i surround my computer desk with. :) but the polycount forum has proven to be a priceless creative inspiration and education resource.

    @ Msansook - What are the textbooks? Is it math stuff?...
  • Msansook
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    the creative environment i experienced at school is something i haven't been able to recreate here at home, no matter how many action-figures i surround my computer desk with. :) but the polycount forum has proven to be a priceless creative inspiration and education resource.

    @ Msansook - What are the textbooks? Is it math stuff?...

    We went over some math/art related items for our general education at the beginning of the degree. As far as textbooks, we had a online course that really didn't have a textbook. We used Aleks but all other information was taught via lecture. Sorry, I'm not much help here. :(

    The solid huge textbooks that we do have are ranging from Maya textbooks to The Animator's Guide Book. We have a LOT and then the whole Eat3D website.
  • TactMasterZero
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    TactMasterZero polycounter lvl 17
    sounds like pretty much the same books i got from school, only mine are from 1999. my Maya books are for Maya 2. :)
  • tristamus
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    tristamus polycounter lvl 9
    edit: wrong thread lol
  • Msansook
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    sounds like pretty much the same books i got from school, only mine are from 1999. my Maya books are for Maya 2. :)

    Haha good stuff
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