3DS Max vs Maya
polycounter lvl 4
Hey guys,
I was just wondering what the general view is of games industry standard modelling packages, i know a lot of studios use Max but then again some use Maya.
What would you say is best to get to grips with for a job in the industry?
cheers!
I was just wondering what the general view is of games industry standard modelling packages, i know a lot of studios use Max but then again some use Maya.
What would you say is best to get to grips with for a job in the industry?
cheers!
Replies
But seriously if you know 2 modelling applications that can only be better.
For example ... I - as a 15ish year max user with a decent grasp of maya and loads of experience as a TA in a mixed pipeline - think maya is shit and more trouble than its worth.
The thing is, all the primary maya users i work with disagree...
problem is you get really biased once you invest your time into learning all the commands, or customizing and scripting one of them.
like i can use max fine, but prefer maya, since i write a ton of my own scripts for it, and made maya my bitch.
Maya = Quick Modeling, fast workflow, less "neat" tricks for manipulating meshes (manipulators)
Max = Slower in terms of modeling workflow, lots of plug ins, good set of tools to manipulate meshes.
That said: I think more studios lean towards Maya and more are switching to Maya. I find it faster to model, toss over to zbrush, toss back and retopo. If you are going to get intricate then Max is probably a better bet.
If you are aiming to work at a studio then find out what they use and master that.
either or both
See, this just shows that you don't know Max well enough to make a decent comparison. Objectively speaking, its modelling toolset has been lightyears ahead of mayas since about 2004.
The reason you personally can model quicker in maya is that you know it better and that is always going to be the case.
The main reason so many studios shifted over imo is the cost. basic maya came in at half the price of max during the mid noughties which meant colleges bought and taught it and provided the world the a glut of new maya users.
That is subjectively speaking, not objectively. I respect your opinion, but I just have to disagree entirely that the quick modeling I experience comes down to knowing the application better. I honestly believe that Maya is faster when it comes to quickly modeling out base meshes and snapping verts. The UI along with hotkeys and radial menu make it a breeze. I am not however saying that Maya is the best at modeling, which I made fairly clear.
I do agree however that the more you familiarize yourself with an application, generally speaking, and create the habits necessary to work faster, then yes speed will go up. This applies to any application.
Either way, this argument feels nearly as old as time itself and probably wont go anywhere...but please don't base your reply off of "you just dont know Max" or you just dont know Maya". Max is great and I have used it in the past, however I believe based on articles as well as observation that Maya is becoming the more dominant all around cg application for game studios. This is not a bad thing, it just is and I believe in any industry one of the keys to success is learning to adapt.
Just my 2 cents.
Poopipe, it's a bit easy to just turn it around like that cause that's what you feel is true.
I'd say anyone who tells you one is better than the other just doesn't know them well enough, they are both powerful tools (yet actually a bit antiquated), that do much of the same things more or less well.
Learn one and just don't be afraid to learn the other if the job requires it.
I started with Max, used it for about 5 years, switched to Maya a few times (back and forth) depending on the jobs, and now I wouldn't really want to go back to Max (but I could), but it's mostly just cause I've spent more time tweaking Maya to my liking.
The problem with that is that such studio switches are often motivated by pipeline reasons (maya being a better animation package and overall a nicer platform to develop tools for, so it seems). Yet modelers end up having to switch to it too, even tho Max is without a doubt much more stable when it comes to modeling (less improper behavior when it comes to creating double faces, and so on) and overall has cleaner, more predictable features for smooth mesh editing (more consistent bevel and chamfers, better previews of what tools are going to do, and many other small details)
The default toolset is indeed lackluster tho - it does requires quite a few scripts and tweaks to really make it efficient, and the default navigation sucks
However, when really looking at both with a bit of perspective ... they are both good a lowpoly modeling, but both are really behind when it comes to a more non-linear workflow. By now one could expect such programs to incorporate proxy modeling with voxel, solid non-destructive parametrical modeling for hard surface designs, and so on. Yet we all end up using good old edge loops because there's really nothing better available at the moment
As long as you can export the model as a obj...noone cares what package you use...as long as your good at it.
Hit the nail on the head, especially the part about colleges.
From an animation stand point there isn't much that Maya has over Max. I think most of it is animators preference because that was the platform they where taught on and they would rather stay in their comfort zone. There are a lot of advantages to doing game animation in Max and Maya has lagged behind for a while.
With Maya it's almost a given that you need someone with some rigging/scripting/Tech Artist expereince just to build basic rigs and get things in game. Which if is a very different skill set and frame of mind than animation. The difference is almost as wide as programing and art.
With Max they handled a lot of the tech artists stuff out of the box and let animators just animate. It's not that you can't take the Tech Artist approach in max and do your own rigs because you can, it's just not the only approach.
Maya is catching up on that front and even pull a head in a few areas like including HumanIK including some quaternion solutions and a curve editor that doesn't lag the viewport when open, but that really depends on how the studio is using some of the newer tech. Mostly they seem to be lagging behind doing things the same old way with a few exceptions here and there...
But yeah ... with time passing by and given how much these two apps are stagnating now, I would say that they are both decent ... with a tendency to suck haha
they would lose a lot of money
yeah I wish Maya had more modeling updates though maybe the feedback forum will help. Also if they were to theoretically build a MaxMaya app, wonder what studios would do. Learning another API and building a pipeline on that untested sounds not fun haha.
max and maya work fundamentally different smashing them together would just piss of current max and maya users.
i reckon this because theyve put very little investment in development compared to what theyve put into max over the last few years. if they intended to push it as a major platform they'd have done what they did with mudbox and actually spend some money on it.
Im pro max so its partly wishful thinking but i suspect it'll come to pass..
Based on the demos they've done in the recent past at shows like GDC, Siggraph, etc, this doesn't make any sense. They haven't added things to Maya that a lot of people want to see, but they're certainly adding pipeline functionality.
Maya is cross platform compatible so if anything....max will get faded out
They are probably trying to push each as a unique solution for two different problems. Max to model, Maya to animate and enough talk between the two that it doesn't matter which department uses what. That probably explains all of the focus they have put on FBX since they merged. The problem comes from their timing they merged when both where pretty much equal so now they have to engineer inequality to separate the users.
Maya is better than max in the rendering area, but the simulation part is so behind they've got the core developement team from softimage ice to rebuild their simulation system.. hope we get ice for maya as well.
So best modeling package for vidya games?...how come nobody mentioned Zbrush?.
While Zbrush can certainly do a lot, and more features are added with every update, it cannot really be a replacement for 3d modeling, uving, rigging and scene creating application.
some have been entirely exclusive to 1 of the other.
soem have used both (project based) team 1 making Y game will be usuing Maya team 2 making X game will be on Max.
and others even have it mixed and just let the artists use what they want to use.
some even use XSI.
nearly all of them use Maya exclusivity for Animation / creating rigs and so on and never even bother trying to use max for it.
for me as an Artist i lean toward Max in a big way for modeling / texturing and view port shaders.
as a stand alone package Max has everything you need out of the box to get going and is super fast for mesh manipulation with a tonne of tools at your disposal.
Maya on the other hand (from a modeling point of view) is in my opinion severely lacking in tools department out of the box and only becomes useful and efficient to model with after you have thrown in allot of 3rd party scripts and whatnot to aid you. its a great package and its vert snapping tools work better than Max's.
But as a 'install and go' package Max wins hands down in my opinion also Ive never liked Mayas UI.
as far as what to learn to work in the industry? BOTH+Zbrush (if you are an artist)
all have Pro's and Con's in the end its just personal Pref.
also if you are ONLY modeling and nothing else XSI might even be better than both Max and Maya out of the box.
I am curious about modo though. Anyone have experience with it? Because it's license is tied to you personally and not a machine, I wonder if people use it in a production environment?
You should try Modo, it has some really nice modeling tools. I would love to spend more time with it but my school uses Maya exclusively since it is widely considered the best for rigging and animation.
Hi Everyone {I'm a big fan of Polycount & have been lurking for a while now}
As a long time Max user, I recently gave Modo a solid try. It is a fantastic and intelligent 3D package. Unfortunately I've decided to go back to using Max, at least for the modeling side of things. Its kinda given me a new appreciation for Max :poly136:
Modo Disadvantages {IMO} (only from modeling standpoint)
-Feels like it is missing too many modeling features.
-Doesn't have a modifier stack. (Deformers/Effectors are similar but that's for animating & tool pipe disappears once you apply the tool)
-Has some stability issues.
-Mesh container system can be annoying.
-Some of the tools struggle when used on mid to high poly meshes (e.g. Edge Slice).
-Difficult to pickup on and fix model errors. Even after using the MeshCleanup tool/script there are still some left behind.
-The selection system is irritating, I found myself constantly having to change the frontface, backface and partial selection settings.
-Wireframe views are difficult to read/make sense of.
-Aligning meshes is cumbersome and feels imprecise.
-Symmetry & Smoothing Group functions are bung.
Modo Advantages {IMO} (only from modeling standpoint)
-Actions Centers, Falloffs and Workplane
-Tool Pipe system is ingenious.
-Tabbed viewport presets (I like the idea of having a Modeling room, Topo room, etc)
-Viewport Performance and Navigation.
-Has a collision detection type snapping feature.
-Tab to toggle Subdivision mode and Shift+Tab to toggle Pixar Subdivision.
-Allows you to have multiple scene files open at the same time.
-Ease at which you can paint and use Vertex Maps to control subdivision.
-Plays nice with other applications (import/export).
-Many more.
I'd recommend everyone give Modo a go at least once. Definitely plan to make use of its other features and for certain modeling tasks.
To answer your other question, I believe that Valve and Id Software use it but I'm not sure to what extent.
Get to know that work plane. It's your personal coordinate system assistant.
And those UV tools. So f'ing good!
*turns and runs*
using both have inspired me to try different approaches to transfer workflow between the 2 packages and do something new.
Maya forces you to work really clean and organized. whereas Max gives you more freedom.
Things I like in Max:
- Large amount of Modifiers
- Smoothing groups
- proper symmetry/mirror cut
- not having to clear history all the time lol
Things I like in Maya:
- UVing(Ive been using Max longer). Being able to tell if faces are flipped constantly is very useful. unfolding with slider is another tool I use all the time.
- Transfer attributes
- Connect components(maya 2011 I believe it was introduced)
http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/edgesmooth
Something else they need to do, is make the UV editor a mode you can enter at anytime without having to add a modifier to the stack. This would make tweaking the UV's on already skinned characters and doing operations like selecting UV sections on a mesh much much easier than it is currently.
What on earth did they update the Maya interface from legacy code to a moderm qt? Or why are they investing in updating the viewport 2.0 with DX11?
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/marcel/maya-directx-11-technology-preview
They're long term stratergies. It would be the most ridiculous move to overhaul the backend of Maya only to shelve it in 2 or 3 cycles like you suggest.
:poly142:
There's been a few persuasive arguments against my theory already but the fact remains, Maya has been the redheaded stepchild in terms of development effort. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good thing (although it'd make my life easier tbh), I'm just saying that if they were properly committed it'd have had investment on the same level as max and mudbox