Medieval Fantasy Thrive More Upon Quality, Quantity or Story Line
polycounter lvl 14
Greetings Polycounters;
As the title suggests, give out your best opinion on what makes a good fantasy story, novel, game, etc. (It should have all three but focuses on one content a bit more than the other 2)
Games:
My personal opinion is its story line. Doesn't matter if the product has quality, epic graphics and what not, if its story line is not appealing, it wont sell. As the story moves on to the later chapters in the game, it should balance out with the quantity with the story line providing you with more content that links to the main story line.
So, over all, quality is not as important as Story line and some what quantity. right?
As the title suggests, give out your best opinion on what makes a good fantasy story, novel, game, etc. (It should have all three but focuses on one content a bit more than the other 2)
Games:
My personal opinion is its story line. Doesn't matter if the product has quality, epic graphics and what not, if its story line is not appealing, it wont sell. As the story moves on to the later chapters in the game, it should balance out with the quantity with the story line providing you with more content that links to the main story line.
So, over all, quality is not as important as Story line and some what quantity. right?
Replies
Let's take recently WRPG-GOTY Skyrim. It wasn't visually spectacular, not technically intriguing, nor apparently bug tested before it was released. I didn't find the storyline especially noteworthy (though I'm yet to be blown off my feet with a wrpg in any way, so I might be skewing the results here). Quantity was alright though; the world was fairly large and it had enough towns to get around and up to some mischief.
If you're making a wrpg, then as long as nothing's too terrible, and it has some moments that are nice and a general medieval fantasy theme, then you should be fine apparently. A well known franchise name helps, too.
i dont remember the name, but a few years back i played an "RPG Maker" game which entirely took place in only one castle (it changed through the game and you had for seasons of it, but in the end it was the same old castle through the whole game).
but yes, i would ay graphics isnt everything. a character who looks awesome, but has no personality is not at all appealing to me. why would i talk to someone soulless?
I mean you can't just have quality... that's just verbose prose that has no direction or longevity
or quantity... a large amount of shit is just shit.
or Storyline... I could arrange it neatly and have events flow with logic, but it will be boring and short.
*Edit* you should make it more clear what these categories refer to. Apart from "storyline" you could be referring to any of the elements that come together to make media. As you can tell from above, I interpreted it as "elements that refer to the fantasy itself" or obviously a book....
Ok, I am not sure how to explain quality. If you are taking the content out of a novel like, for example, if you are taking a character out of "R.A. Salvator's: Legend of Drizzt Series," from forgotten realms, called Bruenor Battlehammer, you are making a game of it. Now the Storyline; the background of him, the clan, the title, how he earned it, what incidents were happened in the past in his life, what his main goal is, about his friends, how his main friends link to him, what are their background, etc.
The Storyline will be your main guide. Quality of him would be, creating him in 3d as what people have imagined him to be (since he is fictional).
The Quantity of that would be, how he links to the other clans and to the city of Icewind Dale, etc. (I am not sure if people have read these series.)
If you are making something completely new, that hasnt been written before, you still have to write the story line and explain every character's background, and their traditions, etc.
Yes the quality is going to be there, but isnt a good story line makes it a good selling game in either cases for the fantasy?
So, taking that into account (that a quality game may be deficient in every area except a particularly spectacular story/story delivery) they thrive exclusively on quality. People only bitch about short games when they dont feel they were worth the money; ie, when they feel that they were not a meaningful enough experience to have paid for.
For a great fantasy game I'd rather have the emphasis placed on creating a world that allows the player to become a part of it. I don't want the game to tell me how awesome I am (or rather are supposed to be) and how I'm the most significant person ever (there's hardly ever credible context for that); I want to go off and do stuff in the game and develop who I am based off of that.
(If you want to have scripted stories then fine, but don't for a second pretend the player is who the avatar is. If you have a scripted story at least do a decent job of it and design the character to specifically fit the story, to be iconic to the role.)
If you want each player to feel like a unique person with an avatar representing themself then leave the story to the world and not rigidly crafted around the player. Like in real life I don't expect my 'character' to be the center of all the significant things that happen. In a game I'd rather the world story be mostly independent of my character unless I decide to get involved somehow, that way events can hold some sense of credibility. I'd imagine the world itself would have its own iconic characters and multiple stories that would matter to the world (and therefore the player), and the player would do things to make their own, local stories through actions. The setup gives the player the freedom to actually be an individual (if that's the intent) as part of a world that can exists and persists independently.
A great fantasy game for me might involve becoming the apprentice of a blacksmith in a small village and helping to defend against an invasion or something. It might also be to gain notoriety as a pirate in the port town, or to start a small shop selling quality shoes to passing adventurers. For someone else they might want to be the adventurer or to get into politics.
I'm sort of ranting now, but in short I think people really need to revisit the idea of what it means to have a story in a game, because these things to me are all 'stories', just not a script forced at you. As for how to have all of this emergence I'd imagine a massively multiplayer online setting could be a prime candidate. You can see the mentality working successfully in the old MUDs and sandboxes.
Wat?
Skyrim / Oblivion fall a bit in the middle, but all the little details, side quests, etc could also be considered story as they draw you deeper into the world - Skyrim's strength isn't really that the world is big (that's easy to make), but that it is also alive and detailed enough to make it worth exploring, offering little stories here and there - even though my opinion is that the overall story - i.e. main quest - is still rather weak.
But the point is, story makes the experience memorable to me. It's places, characters, quests you should remember.
Regardless I feel compelled as a discussion point to disagree that Storyline is most important in making a game. Gameplay is most important in making a game, no matter the themes or genre. That's not to say a good storyline is redundant, as most of my favourite games have strong stories of which may or may not be connected to the gameplay at all.
In some cases, "story" or "narrative" of a game could be easily labelled as gameplay. In fact, there are many types of games, in which "gameplay" is almost completely devoid of the type of game mechanics that we usually associate with this word.
On the far end of the spectrum we've got text RPG's akin to Choose Your Own Adventure books.. Then, somewhere closer to the mainstream, we've got games like Heavy Rain, in which you can spend minutes looking at a box of orange juice.
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So, I would say that the most important aspect of making a game... is making a game. As ridiculous as that sounds, I feel that trying to put a single aspect of games on a pedestal in a such diverse form of media simply won't work.
Personally, I always look at games as a combination of many elements and my enjoyment usually depends on how well these elements work in conjunction.
this.
if the game is fun to play, i'll forgive it shitty graphics, being short and having a poor story.
There are few cases, For example: Riot Games, used their previous work experience to prove that the game League of Legends will work out great. When it was made, there was no lore of any character, or the main story, not even an online store to buy buffs and glyphs and all. But the concept of Blue team vs Purple team or Red team with a good game play, made the League of Legends a good hit.
In my personal opinion, doesnt matter if its a Quality game or how big it is, if it doesnt have a solid and great storyline, it wont last.
IMO, I disagree, Gameplay is by far the most important thing in games and story, quality, quantity, w/e doesn't matter much imo. Lets take Guild Wars Fractions as an example. I played it quite a bit, got to level 20 with a few characters but I can't really remember what the story was, expect "Bad guys everywhere, kill the bad guys". It was a great game but it didn't need a story.
But, it depends what you want from the game your playing. Do you want to be told a story? or do you want to play a game? Few games have done both very well. Diablo 2 has both.
That's true, but I would consider the defining element to be Interactivity. After all it is the only element that distinguishes games from other media. The quality of this interaction would determine how enjoyable the game is for somebody, but that's not to say that the other elements such as graphics, story, sound, etc don't contribute to that enjoyment.
For instance I've always held the opinion that the gameplay in Planescape: Torment to be pretty crap, the majority of what's good in that game come from the huge well-written story, characters and lore. Such elements also work well in books, movies and series - with not poor gameplay to ruin the experience. But I still would prefer it as a game. Interacting with the world and it's characters, making important decisions and watching the growth of your characters is the much more fulfilling experience because of the elements that make a game rather than the elements that make a story.
Which brings it back to the medieval environment discussion. All games need good gameplay but the world could be sci-fi or modern or medieval. Clearly we need good amounts of the three components outlined by Nitrwalkr. As for what component needs to tip the balance To me Lore is incredibly important. So far I don't consider the 'storyline' of Skyrim to be kinda boring, but I can't say the same about the Elder Scrolls Universe. You could consider that... Quantity?
You disagree because you cant remember if there was a storyline of Guildwars Faction, or you believe that Guild wars didnt really have any Storyline? What if I am to tell you that when you played GW Factions, you were playing the story line.
You are asked to assist Master Togo to fight off the plague and to find the source of it. Through which you will be asked to pick one of the two factions, Kurzicks, or Luxons. These two factions are really against each other but you and players have to bring them together by earning their reputation. and fight off the plague, and kill Shiro Tagachi (Final boss).
It has been a long time since I played any of the GW series, but there it is. I wouldnt want to spoil the fun of those who are still looking forward to play this game by detailing this story line.
Hitting level 20 isnt a big thing in Guild wars since it relies mostly on your gear, and runes that you put on your gear.
Guild wars series were one of the MMORPGS that were bound to make sure that players follow the story line rather than just grind and hope they would finish the game. Doesnt work that way, unless you use hacks.
I am going to see if I can play the game again to see if I missed anything.
if you like, you can read the Storyline here.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Storyline_of_Factions
Diablo, Diablo 2, and Diablo 2 Lord of Discruction, pretty much had a story line to follow. You couldnt jump to fifth chapter from the first unless you were using a hack.
Once again, as I said earlier, the gameplay is a must and I am not even talking about it. My original question was, do Fantasy concept Thrives more upon quality, quantity, or Storyline, should you decide to implement in anything, be it a book, a game, or a movie.
If a game, it is understood that decent to good game play is a must if you are making a game, otherwise it is worthless.
for example
world of warcraft has a real good story behind it and there are several players who enjoy it
when i played it, i couldnt care less about the story, i played it because i could waste some time with my friends playing it together
then there are the "professional" players who play the game for the competition in the arena or are playing it to get world first kills
same goes for diablo2
people didnt kill mephisto twenty fucking bazillion times "for the story"
they enjoyed the farming and trading and improving their characters
you said if the story isnt appealing it wont sell. thats not true. atleast not for me and people i know. but no one's going to complain when the game comes with a good story. on the other hand, when the story is bad there will be people complaining, but most likely it wont be me.
i am more focused on good gameplay and interesting game mechanics.
a serious story, not just an excuse for arranging levels in a particular order, would have been awesome in diablo. I would have loved to explore the world more by interacting with NPCs more and having a quest system...
Just saying I wouldn't label a game by it's setting (sci-fi, fantasy) if the setting is pretty much irrelevant for the gameplay. I'd rather label the game by the type of gameplay instead.
I'd never mention Diablo as a great fantasy game. But if it's a hack'n'slash game you're after, it would be one of my first choices. For fantasy, I'd mention something like Baldur's Gate or Planescape torment, where the story is integral part of the game and cannot be easily separated without getting a very different experience.
I'm pretty sure "quality, quantity, story line" ALL make up the game's gameplay, or have a hand in it. I don't even know what in the world you're supposed to get from half of those. By quantity do you mean length, or potential content? By quality do you mean graphical polish or art style, or lack of bugs? And for that matter, what in the world are we referencing when we say gameplay? "How all those other things come together", "How my character moves around and shoots things", or simply "How fun it is"?
The most important thing in any game for me is the feeling it leaves me with. Nothing else to it. I can't separate it or categorize what parts are more important any further than that. I can play games that are almost all story, all content, or all random sandbox-style gameplay, and they can all be equally fun in their own way. What makes them all worthwhile to me is the feeling they give me while playing, or the feeling they leave me with when I'm done, or perhaps what I get when I go to reflect upon it later. It's why games like Portal are so badass, why games like Amnesia, Limbo, and Braid all make me want to beat them again, and why I'll always have a soft spot for old games like Tomba (on the original Playstation).
What I was saying was. I played the game quite alot but can't for the life of me remember what the story of the game was. Most games have some form of "story" whether its described to you through cut scenes or you "play" the story is matterless. If its not memorable or doesn't "Wow!" you, then its not a good story.
I can easily remember the stories from Diablo2, Tombraider 1&2, Soul Reaver, Blood Omen, Portal 1&2, Day of the Tentacle, Half Life, etc. All have great stories IMO, Maybe these stories struck a chord and GW story didnt.
Anyhoo, i'm confused by this thread now and i'm not really sure what you're asking. All I can say is, when I buy or start new games I'm not worried about "Story, quantity or quality". I just want a good game, if it has an awesome story thats a bonus, if it has 100+ levels that might or might not be a bonus, If the characters look awesome thats a bonus. If it has all 3, that is still only a bonus. Gameplay is what I buy games for.
Quality as in attention to detail. In a book, it would be; explaining the environment or a character thoroughly, to make the reader successfully understand or imagine it rightly.
If game, detailing every bit of the scene to make it look real or close to real (Fantasy wise).
Quantity as in how big the story is. If its a book, quantity can be defined as number of volumes (Parts of the book). If its a game, quantity can be defined as how many parts or expansions are there of the game. Since we are talking about fantasy, the size of society may also be counted as quantity, its link to other society and their size. (I think you get the idea).
Story line as in the main story of a book or a game.
A simple yet found confusing question was as the title suggested, but I suppose I should rephrase and ask again, even tho few of you have answered it based on your opinion (Thanks.) "What ONE thing, that is necessary in the fantasy concept, that you would also like to have in either a book or a game (BESIDES A DECENT GAME PLAY,) if its genre is Medieval Fantasy?"
If you cant think anything other than "Ya it should have an epic game play," ( which I didnt ask because it is obvious) and if you still cant understand this thread, just let this thread die.
Thanks.
hey man, no need to get down on this confusion, it can always happen here on the internet when the question ain't perfectly articulated. I'm sure people understand what you're talking about now.
I'm not sure if everyone will have a definitive answer to what is 'best' for this genre since people's tastes differ, and the elements you outlined can be applied to many genres including dramas, detective stories, sci-fi etcetera. Not to mention how each of those elements come into play to make the whole.
How about some research? We could all check in on our memories of some of the medieval themed games we've enjoyed/hated throughout the years and rate them according to your variables... (and possibly gameplay) and then we may see what is most valued among people.
This is part of the research. Infact, I made this thread after I got yelled at by some douche-bag telling me that quality is more important than a good storyline. As me being half the fantasy nerd, to prove it I made this thread.
I didnt even ask about the game play, because it is obvious, if you experience a bad game play, even with the good storyline, you wouldnt last long playing that game.
As confusing as it may sound many people derived this thread towards games and its gameplay (which is ok, but game play wasnt even in the main topic,) because I was asking for both, books and games.
People need to learn to follow the topic accordingly, instead of posting stuff that has nothing to do with the topic, it confuses others, the original poster of the thread, and eventually it makes it a bad thread.
I thank people who were sticking to the topic and gave their opinions according to the topic, fewer people would worry about the story line, and more about the quality.
I guess I am the only one person who would buy a game just because it has a good story line.
You guys win. Thanks for playing.
peace.
People did follow the topic. "...give out your best opinion on what makes a good fantasy story, novel, game, etc." You didn't exactly make it clear that you only created this thread to try and prove to some guy your opinions towards fantasy games were "right".
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/27/remembering-the-best-jrpg-ever/
at least for me, in RPG game, story is more important :XD
Sir, if you dont have anything better to say, it is my humble request that you do not say anything at all.
This thread isnt made to prove who is right and who is wrong. This thread was made to see if there are others like me who would buy fantasy games to know the story of it. And to do that I asked people's opinion, and I appreciated their opinion. There are people here who would play the game or read a book to know the story, and there are people who would just want to experience the quality of it.
So, if your "opinion"...sorry..."Attitude is to say that I am wrong and you are right" than you should just keep it to yourself because I didnt make this thread to say that who is right and who is wrong.
I considered everyone's opinion equally. I didnt consider everyone to be wrong because there is no right answer to this question, its just something you would like, or you wouldnt like. I wanted to see how many people would buy a fantasy game for its story (and if you read back, there are few. I thank them and others who have given their opinion regarding this thread and gave the time to understand the core reason of this thread.)
Please do not come to me and try to nail this "false belief" on my head that I am wrong about something that does not have any right way.
In all honesty, I urge you that you should just let this thread die.
Thanks
With best regards
Nitewalkr
Not very often I can say that about a game, though.
Please don't take our confusion as a slight against your own views and opinions. In this case it's like you asked burger fans whether they like the meat, bun, or salad best.