Giving up the high poly or not?
polycounter lvl 11
Hi,
Just need some opinions on something. I've been freelancing for a while now and my newest clients is requesting that I also give him the highpoly models I've made. Just to clarify, what he wanted was game ready models so i had to make high polys in order to bake normals etc. Then after the first model as done he said he wanted the high poly just incase he needed to re-bake anything. I said he could have it as long as it was for this project only and i keep all rights to it. Fair in my opinion, but now he is saying he wants full rights to them included in the finished models I make. This seems very unfair especially considering I've been giving him a substantial discount all along in order to help him get this game up and running.
As far as I'm concerned, the high polys are just tools used to create the low poly game ready models and I should be able to use them as i see fit. I am also a little worried that maybe this guy, whose business partner is a 3D artist, will just use them to easily create and sell new models at my expense.
Anyway just wondering if anyone else has been in the same boat and what they've done.
Thanks in advance.
Just need some opinions on something. I've been freelancing for a while now and my newest clients is requesting that I also give him the highpoly models I've made. Just to clarify, what he wanted was game ready models so i had to make high polys in order to bake normals etc. Then after the first model as done he said he wanted the high poly just incase he needed to re-bake anything. I said he could have it as long as it was for this project only and i keep all rights to it. Fair in my opinion, but now he is saying he wants full rights to them included in the finished models I make. This seems very unfair especially considering I've been giving him a substantial discount all along in order to help him get this game up and running.
As far as I'm concerned, the high polys are just tools used to create the low poly game ready models and I should be able to use them as i see fit. I am also a little worried that maybe this guy, whose business partner is a 3D artist, will just use them to easily create and sell new models at my expense.
Anyway just wondering if anyone else has been in the same boat and what they've done.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
are the models based off designs they gave you? if this is true then the highpoly models aren't really yours to keep since they're 'derivative works'
what does it say in your contract? does it say something like "submit all files related to the job" ?
If it was a sub-d model, you can always give him the high-rez frozen/collapsed asset. That would reduce its re usability, while keeping its purpose for rebaking. Though many studios usually require the high rez because they run into animation issues that need mesh tweaking, or game-play issues if it is an environment that requires rework, that destroys the current unwrap.
Also the contract said nothing like "all files". There was a specific list of file types and if he accepts my new quote I will be making a list of the file types to be submitted.
Also, the models are not of guns M4's AK's etc.... All he gave me was a reference image or two as to exactly what he wanted then I made the high poly myself from scratch
It's called "Fuck You. Pay Me."
It never occurred to me to withhold the high poly models, i mean why would you?
if the client wants to sell the high poly model even, that his perogative and that's what he had paid for.
Its completely a personal choice. You should always go off what the contract says, but some artists provide the bare minimum because they feel like the client will have to come back to them for anything relating to that project, so that equals more work. But most of them are willing to part from the high poly assets or the scene files for more cash.
Generally, your contract is going to say that the asset and any works created during the process of construction, is the exclusive property of the client. This is how most contracts go, unless you specifically negotiate different terms.
This means high, sculpts, low, psds etc. Generally we(3ps) will provide a nice clean bake file with keyframes for exploded bakes too, in the format of the client's choice. Requiring this for rebakes etc is very common.
This is what we in the industry like to refer to as a "Dick Move", it is more likely to get you shitlisted than rehired.
I like the cut of this guy's jib.
Thats exactly what I thought. All high poly source files and rights always go to the employer, its not as if you can use the model or sell it again, especially if you've signed an NDA. If you want to show your work in your portfolio then thats different to having rights to the assets. Thats just gaining permission to show the model. which is usually a case of just emailing/phoning and asking them and then showing them before you put it up incase you break any legal stuff for them or the work doesnt look good enough etc.
Most models will need a bit of tweaking later on in development and so makes sense that they have everything to do that rather then a constant back and forth with the original artist who could be working another job and cost them an arm and a leg to move a few verts. If it worries you that you might not get more work from it then I will say just make sure you do a good job and are easy to work with. Ive been asked back by every company Ive worked with so far and thats not because they are forced to as I have their files but because they were happy with my services and didnt cause them any shit.
Its different to illustration where the rights and touch ups are a big deal
I probably should of wrote *I don't free lance but what I've heard and seen from other freelancers in different parts of the 3d industry.*
In the past I've always done my utmost to give my clients exactly what they wanted, well organized source files included.
On the other hand if you're dealing with a cheapskate client who's trying to take advantage of you in some way it's best to just find better clients as soon as possible since the relationship is unlikely to improve.
After they've paid I'd gladly give them everything. As far as I'm concerned they own it. Including PSD's ZB files, and PSD's.
What exactly are you intending to do with the high poly? Other than hold it for ransom?
Freelance isn't really any different. You can hold to the letter of the contract, though high and low rez are both considered game assets, as well as any texture and max files. Unless it specifically says "engine ready assets only", or something along those lines as your own stipulation. Wont win you many friends though.
I've had these kinds of contracts. It's not legally enforcable here though.
well I'll fill you all in a little more. There was no real contract- only an agreement to make such a model (finished & game ready), he said nothing about the high poly at first.
He is now looking for the sole rights to the high poly for the same price. He has also stated that he will be using the models in other projects in the future and basically for whatever he needs.
What I am worried about is him or his 3D modeller friend using my high poly to make and sell different game ready models. Basically I would have done half the work for them and they presumably would be cashing in on this.
What I want to keep the high polys for is this:
To use in making individual low poly, game ready models. In other words if a client asks me to make an M16, and lets just say I have the m16 high poly from a previous project, I load up that high poly, get rid of turbosmooth modifiers etc, retopologise, unwrap the UVs, use the high poly to bake the normals and then texture. Is this legal? or even ethical? Your opinions please.......
As far as I'm concerned the model they would be getting would be original seeing as the topology is original, so are the UVs and texture files....
So far I have told the guy I will not be giving him the rights to the high poly mostly seeing as my price is so low anyways. What do you guys think? What I wouldn't mind is to share the rights..... He could use them for whatever and I could use them for whatever.... I'm actually ok with that
Just a few things to bare in mind, firstly getting paid for it, return custom, sorting these things first and agreeing to prices you feel are fair in the first place.
I mean should I be charging more to give him the rights to the high poly? Either sole rights or shared rights.
This is very typical of what I've experienced over 20 years of contract programming.
In this case it seems like you have some leeway with the client, but if he allows you to retain some rights to your work, GET IT IN WRITING.
The client is jerking him around. If providing the high poly assets was the client's expectation, then they didn't clearly define expectations. Before you do anything for a client, get it in writing what you're expected to do, what you will deliver, and when it is expected to be delivered. The same goes for the client's side. If the terms are no good for you, then you're free to walk away without risking anything.
But he's paid you for the work, it shouldn't really be any concern to you what he does with it, you were hired to do a job at a rate you agreed too. There really isn't any reason for you to feel slighted or feel like you need to withhold anything from him.
Keeping up good relationships is essential with contracting. Not only will you lose out on more potential work by burning bridges, you'll lose out on work from anyone this client happens to talk to as well. The game industry is quite small, remember that.
Greevar/Polymonstar: He's already been paid for the work.... Telling the client to fuck off puts him(grey) in the negative position of losing work or gaining a poor reputation as being difficult to deal with. There is no need for him to worry about the client modifying the agreement in any meaningful way, the client has no legal grounds to stand on, and is making a completely reasonable request. If the client starts making unreasonable demands, that is the time to tell them to fuck off. Remember, he has been paid for the work, this isn't some "power play" getting the artist to fork over more than what was agreed upon while withholding payment.
Chances are the client simply assumed the source assets would be included, as is common industry practice.
Grey: Reusing bits of old PSDs is pretty common, even with professional work. Or bits and bolts from a highpoly mesh or something, as long as you aren't reusing/reselling assets wholesale you're probably going to be alright. Too often you will be required to model something 99% unique, and only tiny little floaters can be reused. It is fairly unlikely that you will model 6 different m16's in your career, and if you do, there will probably be enough time inbetween that you would prefer to recreate the asset to the skill level you're currently at, not use a year old asset. This depends on how much you personally progress as an artist however. Looking back at my old work I would rarely want to reuse anything that I had not created fairly recently.
Technically in this case, because there was no contract, and no legally binding transfer of exclusive rights to said asset(s) you can do absolutely anything you want with it, re-use it, sell it to someone else. All you have here is a "gentleman's agreement" which is not binding in a court of law. As the creator and IP holder of the original artwork, you maintain all rights unless you specifically relinquish those rights to a 2nd party. He's essentially just paid you to send him a digital copy of the artwork, and nothing more, if there isn't a contract.
From what I understand at least, someone with more legal experience can debunk that if they like. But even with all that considered, I wouldn't personally take any action that would spoil your relationship with the client.
Yes, technically, he is not obligated to give the guy the high poly, or the PSD. That's what happens when you don't fill out a contract. Apparently this a casual, unprofessional situation. I don't see anything odd about the client expecting him to deliver the high poly asset with the final content though. Do you also think it's bullshit that the client expects him to hand over the PSD? The construction files, in all my experience, have always been included in the contract (BUT, I actually had a contract that specified this).
I don't know what the job was or who the client is, but unless he's jerked you around (which it doesnt sound like he did), I don't understand why you wouldn't have given him the high poly with the rest of the assets. He paid you to make the asset, he paid you for the work you did. The high poly was part of that work.
Legally, technically, no you don't have to give it to him. But it's kind of a dick move not to, it's your fault for not writing up a proper contract and not assuming the hi poly was part of the deal. Personally, I would give it to him in this situation, but I would also have written up a proper contract to begin with.
Mainly it's up to you and whether or not you want this guy to hire you for future work or recommend you to others. Legally, you don't have to give him shit.
They are both at fault for not forming a clearly stated contract, but assuming that certain assets should be surrendered to the client without explicitly defining that is a mistake. If the client expects to get all rights and all sole copies of the assets, it should say as much in the contract. If it isn't in the contract, then they aren't entitled to it. It might get you a bad review, but like EQ said, the industry is a pretty small group. Just as much as that client could complain to others that he held back on assets, grey can also tell his peers that this client is inconsistent with their expectations. I don't see any reason why grey shouldn't hold on to reusable assets if the client didn't secure a transfer of rights to them.
At best, grey could say "You never said you wanted the rights and copies of the high poly assets, you should have said as much when we agreed on this. I can give you copies to the HP assets so you can re-bake it, but the copyrights will still belong to me to use in other derivative works."
Let me say though, that my opinion on this is as such because every asset you create has the potential to serve you in future work and if you can retain the copyright, thus the ability to reuse the asset, you should do so. Had both grey and his client both been free to use the asset without exclusive rights assigned to either of them (so that both may use them), I'd suggest grey simply handed over the assets, because he can make use of them just as much as they can. If grey hands over the rights to the asset, he loses the right to make new works from it to save time and labor. Ideally, both of them should be equally entitled to use the assets as they see fit because both have a practical use and need for them.
Get it in writing.
Again there was never an initial contract, Grey retains full rights to his work no matter what. The client is the only one who really needs to seek a contract at this point(to ensure he has rights to redistribute the work etc etc).
No harm can come to Grey here, he's protected by basic IP law. The client cant "steal" his rights.