A little schooling advice, if you would?
polygon
Ok poly-counters, so i have been playing around with 3d for about a year and a half now and altho, im enjoying playing around, i really need to make a choice weather im going to make this my path and invest some serious time/money and do my best to land something that will pay my bills.
the questions im left with are, weather or not to bite the bullet and try to attend a school for how ever long i can afford to. (this would be my second time in art school- last time dif subject)
i live in san diego and could move to l.a. area if need be and i have a few friends working in game dev, so i think i have a pretty good idea what id be getting myself into.
another dilemma is that i cant help but wonder... if im kinda stuck right now, working on my own and trying to get help from here or other art communities, will i be able to keep up with the blistering pace of an active studio? i have very little schooling in 3d and i feel like i have acquired a fair amount of knowledge but i have trouble going from a to b to c to come out with a finished project.
this is all assuming the industry will even have room for new artists in the near future.
anyway, i know im asking a lot but, if anyone has been in the same position and seen the other end, i would really really appreciate any insight. i dont have 65's for gnomon but i could probably find a way to take some specific courses. the art institute is right here and i know they work real close with sony who i have actually worked with before but again 50-60gs for a degree is not gona fly on my budget.
sorry for the long windedness and thank you for any and all input.
the questions im left with are, weather or not to bite the bullet and try to attend a school for how ever long i can afford to. (this would be my second time in art school- last time dif subject)
i live in san diego and could move to l.a. area if need be and i have a few friends working in game dev, so i think i have a pretty good idea what id be getting myself into.
another dilemma is that i cant help but wonder... if im kinda stuck right now, working on my own and trying to get help from here or other art communities, will i be able to keep up with the blistering pace of an active studio? i have very little schooling in 3d and i feel like i have acquired a fair amount of knowledge but i have trouble going from a to b to c to come out with a finished project.
this is all assuming the industry will even have room for new artists in the near future.
anyway, i know im asking a lot but, if anyone has been in the same position and seen the other end, i would really really appreciate any insight. i dont have 65's for gnomon but i could probably find a way to take some specific courses. the art institute is right here and i know they work real close with sony who i have actually worked with before but again 50-60gs for a degree is not gona fly on my budget.
sorry for the long windedness and thank you for any and all input.
Replies
Many people here would suggest you not to go to school but practice what you already know. Create a portfolio that contains your concept arts, models and textures along with your CV. When you've done that, post your portfolio around in any game studio.
If you have been in CG for 1.5 years you must be decent with modeling procedures and all. The only reason one should get in to the art skool for 3d modeling is to have a piece of paper if you want to apply out of the country or something. The school will teach you things you already know and give you a good practice of it (assuming that you are well adjusted with 3d modeling softwares and texture tools)
My 2 cents
Like Nitewalkr says, I know it's cheaper and more convenient to practice at home and learn with online resources, but there's something to be said for going to school, and depending on the type of learner you are, I wouldn't write it off. Especially if you're so close to L.A.
Obviously access to machines / software is a factor, as is the potential for future networking contacts through faculty and classmates, but I still yet to see a school worth paying that much money for - other than perhaps Gnomon, and even with their position and reputation in the industry, it still seems practically extortionate.
Tough call, man.
ok let me see if i can summarize and still get to everything.
im old so i dont have a large amount of time to waste, i need to die soon. naw j/k im not that old but i really cant take a long time in school. if it takes that long to get a job thats cool, but i have taken so many damn history classes i could probably write a book. im not real keen on going to a university that would still probably require student loans to keep me going.
idk how to define passionate really but, i model almost every chance i get, i do things over and over until they look perfect to me and i enjoy every minute i spend with my good friends 3dsmax and zbrush. i have dreams about 3d, i think about it constantly, i drive around sometimes and forget where im going because i cant stop wondering what a super sweet technique would be to model the random stuff i see.
im kinda leaving a life behind i should probably mention. i fallowed another non art related pathf ro many many years and got to the very top, skill wise and professionally. so i do know how to achieve excellence and i have a strong work ethic (feel like im applying for a job).
i guess im just a little frustrated that here is summer of 2010, when i had set my goals to land an internship and i feel light years away.
thanks once again for all the comments. im looking into saving up for a couple courses at gnomon (texturing mostly). anyone been there or have more imput about them specifically?
edit: i went to school for graphic design. learned some good stuf and had a good time but only the photoshop really applies to 3d work.
as long as you can keep yourself motivated, working ahead without school will be a better investment of your time/money
It's funny I am glad there are places like polycount because the crits I got through school from some awesome people here was incredibly helpful and appreciated.Id honestly keep working on your own and like mentioned above keep getting crits to improve you'll learn faster.
anyone gone to gnomon?
On Gnomon note: I just signed up to check the free tutorials out. They are on Intermediate level. But good stuff.
Next month I am planning on subscribing to Digitaltutors they have more tutorials than Gnomon or Eat3D. To learn modeling only, right now I am just doodleing around and getting inspired from speed modeling videos on youtube.
EDIT: Might post some of my doodles soon.
Game related courses are becoming more popular in the UK now, but the US seems to have had them for longer. That being said, I don't know many people in UK who gained a job directly because of their education - in fact MoP is one of the few people I know that completed a course (and I believe he had been offered a job before he had completed it).
Are internships common in the US? They are practically unheard of in UK studios.
You say you are not sure that you could keep pace with the dev time in a studio? How long does it take you to complete an asset? How long does it normally take? Why not post some work in the P&P forums, state how long it took and ask people how long it would take in their studio? Working in a studio is fast paced, but you'll learn many shortcuts and techniques (see point 1), and often you won't be creating assets from scratch. Building a character model? Need hands? Take them from another model. That's the norm.
a friend told me at a studio you will have access to loads and loads of w/e references you want an tons and tons of texture packs for w/e you want. i probably spend at least half my time when i go to texture sifting thru tons of crappy images to try to find one i can use. so, i guess one thing i figured out in the last week or so is that i need to get a hold of a really good image bank.
internships are common here i guess, not as common as they should be imo but def not unheard of. everyone i know got hired as an intern first.
I had this problem too, I would spend way too much time picking texture sources off CGtextures. I fixed my problem by taking more chances on textures that I may not deem to be perfect. And that really loosened up my attitude on texture sources, kept my work momentum flowing, and even got a bit better in photoshop to make my source texture fit it like how I wanted to. Anyways just my 2cents
trying to keep my folders more organised for reference images. gona start a simple model and texture as an exercise and post in pimp prev.
The instructors here are amazing and the amount of connections you make is well worth the money. Not to mention you're across the street from awesome industry gallery shows and huge free public events which hundreds of people attending. Their new program is probably tuned better if you know what you want to do, as they adapted to a sort of VFS type program where you pick a "track" on what you want to do (IE: modelling, animation, visual effects, etc). Or you can just take individual "professional studies" classes which are just single or multiple classes of your choice. If you're in LA I'd recommend taking a tour of the school or even signing up for a single class.
If you have any questions feel free to throw me a PM or IM over AIM. I am in no way a spokesperson for Gnomon, but I'll tell you straight up what to expect. And as like any school, you're probably not going to come out of Gnomon with a job unless you're willing to work long hours and work on personal projects in your free time. There's not much time for screwing around here, unlike 4 year colleges where you have plenty of time to waste and procrastinate.
Just how much would I be spending if I were to do environment design & digital Arts?
Also for the online courses.
I'd really appreciate it if you post the prices of these 2 enlisted sections. Thanks.
It's on their site. Total Program Cost: $81,075
Damn.
$8,000 per term for terms 5-12Non-Refundable Registration Fee: $75
Student Event/Activity Fee: $3000
Total Program Cost: $81,075
@Zac: this is where the pros teach so it doesnt surprise me, even if it was around 100k$.
Anyways, thanks, I'll stick with digital Tutors for now until I am done my bachelors degree of software engineering. If I dont see myself being productive in terms of 3d arts and game development. I guess I'll just join them....I hope they have plans which may accomodate us in terms of tution fees.
EDIT: Besides, when it comes to the subject of Arts, its always vague. Either you pay shit load of money to go to some school to learn it, or you can sit home pay somewhat money to some website to watch them do and learn from it. Stories of success always will make you go for the expensive schools.
anyways
Thanks for the info.
Thought about going to college to force myself to take the time to switch careers. So many cons to it now. Mostly I'm getting old, it's 60k I don't have, and when I get out and hired (IF) the salary is substantially less. I'm decent and passionate now. I expect to be at least a competent game artist, but in the case where either the education sucks or my skill flat lines; I'm out time, money, and I would most likely have to start my current career/salary over or back a few notches. Also by the time school is over I'd like to have children. My current salary is great for that, the entry level game art jobs, not so much.
My advice. Do what you need to do AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I have to live with accepting the fact I may never be what I've always wanted to be. If you are in ANY sort of position right now (location, money, time etc.) to further your career in a field you will love every day of your life. DO IT. Regardless what it is. If you have the means, and miss the opportunity you will literally bash yourself silly for the rest of your life.
Sad, but true.
Good luck switching careers Hardset, I hope it isn't to hard on you or your family (no pun intended)
so excited, wish i didnt have to go to work right now.
If you are refering to IT career as being lame and not something one would want to do. Than you must know the fact that it is also the base of game development. Without programming there is no sense to the game. You can always pay 5k to UDK or 10k or Shiva 150k to Gamebryo, but you will never see the stuff you wanted to do while you develop your game.
Reason why I am such a stubborn ass and sticking to the IT career while learning arts and 3d stuff on my own.
I keep telling myself that this is the plan laid out and it will definately work like a charm.
If / When I'll get a job as a software developer I would take it, knowing that it may affect my self studies, but eventually that time will be different and I will be 3d sevy and at somewhat level as other pros are.
You always have to think ahead what you want to do and how you want to do it is the key to achieve your goal(s). If you think that some school will teach you the arts and get you to the pro level, they might, but mostly it is just practice.
my 2 cents.
wish this guy was not using 3dsmax for bakes tho.
Information Technology is an extremely broad term, and I've only rarely seen Computer Programming of any kind associated with "IT" in conversation or writing. I'm a systems engineer, and while there IS scripting, there is zero programming. Even IF there was programming, absolutely none of it past the basic syntax and some simple variable handling would even remotely be linked to game/graphic programming of any kind. I was also talking about becoming an artist, as was the OP.
You could easily dual hat (learn two career fields) while working a simple desktop technician or helpdesk position. There is generally less responsibility, time, and mental capacity/technical skill required. Once you go beyond Sys Admin, all of the spent effort increases heavily, doubly being a government contractor (60 hour work weeks are normal, as is weekend work). I rarely even want to SEE a computer at the end of the day, let alone work on one, let alone work on something in a completely different context/field. By the time I even get home I only have a couple hours of free time left, and 95% of the time even that is blown on chores etc.
It's not as difficult a transition from general programmer to game/software programmer. The salary is even similar. To go from an engineer to an artist while being 10 years deep into a career (and the salary benefits from having those 10 years) is much more complex. You wouldn’t even have to switch the side of the brain you work from.
I know you young guys think your capacity for knowledge is unlimited, but it's really not. You will start to feel it in your mid 30's. You start having to dump and trade skills around because your job requires it. So get in the job you want ASAP. Programming might be different, but I've had 15 jobs in the last 5 years. All different, all requiring different skill sets. So it's not like I'm starting with a fresh slate here. Also I'm sure my life is much different than yours. It's all subjective. I tried to do the same thing that you are doing, and passed the point of no return on salary where it makes little sense to go to college or change careers. You probably have not yet. So...take advantage of it.
Granted, when I do get the time to mess around in 3D or Unity; I don't usually require a programmer and can usually automate menial tasks easily. So some skills translate alright. But I barely have time to go through 30 minutes of a tutorial or practice, let alone the hundreds of hours the pros put in practicing/learning. It was all due to my career choice. My advice was simply, do what you will love, as soon as you can to avoid this one possibility.
I know everyone thinks they have a solution, and that I’m shooting myself in the foot here. I assure you I'm not. I only jumped on here to show what happens when you don't pursue your dream job earlier in life. I'm not miserable because my day to day experience is terrible. It's just extremely unfulfilling, and in a direction polar opposite of being an artist, and my choice to switch careers is limited by that and other factors. No pity party required. Just an older gents point of view of "Follow your dreams young."
imo, these are the positive things about school:
-connections (networking with fellow students, or the relationship between the school and studios)
-group projects
-some learning
-a bachelor's degree
In my case, I'm at BYU in Utah, a full university. i've become friends with lots of other students, and i'm sure we'll be helping each other get jobs far into the future. The school has excellent relationships with the big feature film studios, and a few game studios. I currently have friends interning/recently hired at pixar, dreamworks, microsoft, soe, laika, etc. I myself will be interning with blizzard this summer.
We also do a group project once a year, and we've won student emmy's/student academy awards pretty frequently lately.
That being said, I'm not expecting ANY school to teach me more than I'm willing to learn on my own. I recognize the importance of the other students and the faculty and the relationships I build with them, but I'll always rely on myself and my own personal projects to make me better and to get me jobs. Hope my thoughts can help a little
I understand your point sir and it is correct. That is IF you get a job in the IT. I practically have a different approach towards game development and desire to do everything on my own. Which makes it harder to follow the drills to achieve my task(s), because I am working 40hrs a week(odd job), while practicing programming, learning directx programming and studying 3d modeling. I am soon to go back to college for further studies in Software engineering which will make things alot harder for me. 60hrs as a programmer or systems Analyst/engineer is very far off.
Luckily I have been messing around with Maya and 3dSmax for a long time so I wouldnt be a complete newbie when it comes to serious learning. Now that I have a lot of free time to spend on it (plus the directx learning and programming practice) I know that I have a solution, in the limited time I must finish it or wont be able to finish it through out my entire life.
So I schedule a timeframe from-till in which I want to spend most of my time studying for 3d arts animation and modeling for games and all. (If you understand what I mean) This isnt the solution but it is something closer to cramming near the final exam. (Thats studying as much as you can whatever you can in a very short time frame) Once I know everything I need to know, everything that I will do will be easy and I will not have to spend most time worrying about it.
And I know that my capacity of gaining knowledge isnt unlimited so I am ok with that. Because I have everything planned out and will be done before I hit my 30s.
As for the programming. It is essential to me because I wanted to learn the traditional way of game development. Whatever you see today had been made through programming for example UDK or XNA or Torque etc. You are talking about working on something that is already made, does not require any programming but least scripting, yes indeed you might not need programming for that. Or God knows if I get in to some Game Studio which have extremely OO approach one of my career will go to waste. But you will never know when you will be asked to work on something that requires programming beyond the basic level or on the basic level.
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