Character Art - Zhou Yu (Battle of Red Cliff 2008)

NikhilR

A game ready model of Viceroy Zhou Yu with the likeness of Hong Kong actor Tony Leung Chiu-Wai who played the character in John Woo's 2008 film Red Cliff. 
Rendered in real time in Unreal Engine 4. 

Background elements and Particle effects are provided free from Epic games within Unreal Engine 4.

More breakdowns, process, references available here,
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/baDw1d







More breakdowns, process, references available here,
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/baDw1d



Reference

Alex_J

nice!

i love that sword especially.

If I have to make some critiques I'd say the folds on the back of the trousers are a little poorly defined, and some variation in the stichs on the armor may give a little more realism. Like just a bit of worble here and there.

NikhilR

BIGTIMEMASTER said:

nice!

i love that sword especially.

If I have to make some critiques I'd say the folds on the back of the trousers are a little poorly defined, and some variation in the stichs on the armor may give a little more realism. Like just a bit of worble here and there.

Thanks! All you incredible detailing on the props for your Durga was quite the motivating to push this model further!

 This was made as a commission so had to make a few sacrifices to account for the shorter duration of time to complete this model. 
I'll be running a pass on this, to improve the definition of the stitches (maybe a small specularity tweak, procedural grunge pass over them) as I make more accessories and also a horse for him to ride.

  His outfit is very poofy in the reference so I found the folds to be less defined than how I'd want them, Also I think the lighting is killing a lot of the definition.

I don't have a proper image of his pants, but here's another guy who wears something similar.
I'm also looking into using apex cloth when I make the model playable which should make the folds a bit more crisp.

Eric Chadwick

Hey this is a great piece, and your best character by far. A couple issues I see:

1. The hands seem too small in proportion relative to the head.
2. The folds on the sides/backs of his pants seem dark and indistinct. Maybe the AO is too strong? Maybe the folds crispness didn't translate during the bake?
3. Jade handle doesn't look like jade, seems too dark.4. Renders on Artstation seem really small. I'd love to get up close and personal, but when I maximize they're pretty small.
5. Lighting could use more love. Compare to the nice lighting in your reference (value, angle, color).
Another example of nice lighting: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/9a4OR

I hope this helps!

NikhilR

Eric Chadwick said:

Hey this is a great piece, and your best character by far. A couple issues I see:

1. The hands seem too small in proportion relative to the head.
2. The folds on the sides/backs of his pants seem dark and indistinct. Maybe the AO is too strong? Maybe the folds crispness didn't translate during the bake?
3. Jade handle doesn't look like jade, seems too dark.4. Renders on Artstation seem really small. I'd love to get up close and personal, but when I maximize they're pretty small.
5. Lighting could use more love. Compare to the nice lighting in your reference (value, angle, color).
Another example of nice lighting: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/9a4OR

I hope this helps!

Thanks!
I was wondering about the hands, they seem to look better in the relaxed pose, but I'll add some variations here so its easier to decide.
The pant likely has subsurface with incorrect values, I need to rectify that and I think its missing a scatter map that's causing the weird AO effect.
I'll also add some passes of the jade, the lighting affects it a lot so maybe I should just re render in a scene that's more brightly lit.
 It is an emissive subsurface material, so its look seems to depend on those two values mostly.
 Thanks for the link on the lighting!
I'm also looking at a few lighting presets and pre lit stock scenes to present the character better.

Thanks again!

Alex_J

Just thinking out loud here, but if you are using SSS on the fabric, maybe going back to the scullpt and exaggerating the hardness of the crease folds -- a bit beyond what you see in the reference -- may be necessary to give that area a nice crispness.

NikhilR

Alex Javor said:

Just thinking out loud here, but if you are using SSS on the fabric, maybe going back to the scullpt and exaggerating the hardness of the crease folds -- a bit beyond what you see in the reference -- may be necessary to give that area a nice crispness.

Here is the clothing in substance painter.
I made the following changes.
- I raised the roughness (reduced specularity) 
- I reduced the procedural grunge - I was doing this to define the clothing better, and this was what was causing the excessive AO effect in Unreal 4. It would have looked better in a presentation with more dust I think.
- Going to post a pic in engine next (have to compile textures) I'm also going to use a few lighting presets I found. I've removed Subsurface for the moment.

- One issue with crispness in the clothing is that it isn't actually there in the reference, like crispiness may look better so I'll try out a pass, but how does this look for now?



Before




After

Alex_J

That looks better to me. I just looked back at the reference though and one thing I think is that the actors pants have much larger folds. Like they are almost overhanging in some places.

But I don't think you got to be slave to the reference, just capture the same mood/feeling. In any case, yeah I agree I think taking out that excessive darkness is an improvement.

NikhilR

Here's some unreal 4 renders. I've changed the lighting going for a better mood (felt the last one was a little subtle and dark) I feel that this one brings out the colors more. Not sure about increasing the size of the hands have posted an image with them open, perhaps a hairline?

 

Alex_J

I think any issues with the lighting and rendering go beyond my knowledge. I do like the look of the pants more now.

I think the wrist should come out further from the cuff. The arms do seem stunted. Sometimes when you curl the fingers you loose some of the volume that should be in the knuckles. Your knuckles are a bit soft looking so maybe they need a corrective blendshape (or just cheat and adjust them after pose) to correct that.

NikhilR

Alex Javor said:

I think any issues with the lighting and rendering go beyond my knowledge. I do like the look of the pants more now.

I think the wrist should come out further from the cuff. The arms do seem stunted. Sometimes when you curl the fingers you loose some of the volume that should be in the knuckles. Your knuckles are a bit soft looking so maybe they need a corrective blendshape (or just cheat and adjust them after pose) to correct that.

Yup, thats what I think is going on, probably just the whole ensemble throwing them off. Will see what I can do.

NikhilR

Improved lighting and larger hands, critique appreciated

Alex_J

The hands still strike me as lacking bone structure. You probably sculpted them in open position, but without a pretty good rig its hhard to get realistic curling. Same issue I had with Durga that I  didn't fix. I have no idea but I wonder if its typical in high end character studios to have a blendshape correction to get hard looking knuckles wiht a cleanched first. Some characters I've been working on lately I just cheat and correct the knuckles after posing cause they ain't gonna animate anyway. I think especially for heroic males there is a lot of character in the hands. Big beefy knuckles, veins, and tendons sticking out on the top make for a really powerful and serious look.

Just throwing a few thoughts out there -- feel free to disregard cause it's not like I know more than you with thihs stuff and these are just observations:

A strong rim light might help define hi silhouette so he doesn't bleed into background as much.

Deeper folds on most the fabric may look more dramatic and interesting.

Maybe some very subtle dodge and burn layers just overall -- especially on clothes they just seem a touch uniform. I don't mean they have to appear grungy but perhaps just some very subtle noise can help give the same level of realism you've got in the face.

Maybe just for fun or better presentation give him a slight expression. Like a bit more furrowed brow or such.

Also I think going with Eric's advice about the jade handle will be nice not just for realism but to get a nice splash of color and material contrast in there.

NikhilR

Alex Javor said:

The hands still strike me as lacking bone structure. You probably sculpted them in open position, but without a pretty good rig its hhard to get realistic curling. Same issue I had with Durga that I  didn't fix. I have no idea but I wonder if its typical in high end character studios to have a blendshape correction to get hard looking knuckles wiht a cleanched first. Some characters I've been working on lately I just cheat and correct the knuckles after posing cause they ain't gonna animate anyway. I think especially for heroic males there is a lot of character in the hands. Big beefy knuckles, veins, and tendons sticking out on the top make for a really powerful and serious look.

Just throwing a few thoughts out there -- feel free to disregard cause it's not like I know more than you with thihs stuff and these are just observations:

A strong rim light might help define hi silhouette so he doesn't bleed into background as much.

Deeper folds on most the fabric may look more dramatic and interesting.

Maybe some very subtle dodge and burn layers just overall -- especially on clothes they just seem a touch uniform. I don't mean they have to appear grungy but perhaps just some very subtle noise can help give the same level of realism you've got in the face.

Maybe just for fun or better presentation give him a slight expression. Like a bit more furrowed brow or such.

Also I think going with Eric's advice about the jade handle will be nice not just for realism but to get a nice splash of color and material contrast in there.

Thats a real good reference for the clenched fist thanks! And yes I didn't rig this model, it was posed using transpose master so there is a margin of error in the posing. In film, I do know that he have corrective blendshapes and wrinkle maps for more than just the face.

And they use scans as blendshape targets, so you get incredible accuracy.

Like its still difficult to use UDIM's correctly in games to get the best possible detail at the highest resolution and if a character is in motion you may not really see certain areas very closely.

I think it really depends on the focus on the piece. I am thinking of doing study sculpts of just different body parts to high accuracy.
For games, it really depends on end result and deadline. One plus here is that most of the jobs I'm getting are portrait work so that's a good sign.

I'll increase the rim light and its radius, I think its too focused on one side of the model.
I'm still iffy about the folds again trying to keep to the reference, but I'm thinking of making them larger.

I'm thinking of a more grungy battle presentation, when I'm finished my horse for the model, so I'll add the variations there. I was going for a cleaner look with this variation.

I'm meaning to do more expressions as part of blend shape studies using visemes, there is a facial rigging approach to that which I'm still learning so it'll probably be after that.

About the jade handle, these are the references I've been matching to,


The jade material I'm using does look closer to Eric's reference with more focused lighting, like you can see the lighter areas more, but the actual photo references is a very dark jade. , 

(this is with the old hands, the new larger hands definitely suit him more.)

Interestingly the official licensed sword has all the jade elements in metal,


Just for presentation, I'll making a sub project focusing on this sculpture and variations using different materials so I'll add erics lighter jade example to that. 

Alex_J

Yeah doing some focused anatomy study is something I've got to do too. Like, knowing whats there is one thing, but actually executing on it is another. I've seen on linkedIN from some of the Rookies judges some general advice for students and one thing they mention was they'd rather see a few perfectly done hand sculpts in pose rather than a complex cahracter with sausage fingers. Hehe, I mean that seems like a bit of an exaggeration as I think you need to know how to make an actual game character but it's a good point. If even a small thing is off with basic anatomy it basically ruins an otherwise impressive piece.

NikhilR

I've always considered the critique to develop as a good artist to be totally different from the critique to get work in the industry.
Like of course there are parallels, but for the most part given what you actually do on the job and what they are paying you for the role, I really doubt the "you are only as good as your worst piece" holds water.
It is possible to nit pick the work of even the very best artists.

Don't want to be called out for shaming people (not what I'm doing) but I've sent you a pm of two such examples from well known artists that ended up on kotaku and literally the whole comment section has issues with it. Its literally freaking people out. (this is the total opposite of the reaction on artstation who are showering the artist with praise.)
 
If we were to judge these artists on those pieces alone, following that popular logic maybe they won't get a job lol. (or since they already have jobs maybe they ought to be fired)

As an artist always good to improve regardless of how conflicting the critique may be, and I wouldn't say a piece is totally ruined by something that isn't done correctly, more on the audience to focus on what they want to appreciate.
I find the better recruiters doing this, especially if they are hiring for junior to mid positions. Its seeing potential and the best in people and that's good for business too in the long run.

Alex_J

I don't disagree, necessarily, but you got to play the game by the rules of those who are running it. When you've got the pull then you can make the changes you want to see. And of course you can nitpick anything to death. I just see that you are reworking the piece so I try to help with it.

Personally I don't like a lot of game art not for its execution but just for the content. But even if somebody who is making what I don't consider to be good art is offering me a critique it can still be very useful from a technical standpoint. Somebody who only sculpts boobies can still know a lot about presentation and art fundamentals.

Anyway, don't get jaded, get even!

NikhilR

Alex Javor said:

I don't disagree, necessarily, but you got to play the game by the rules of those who are running it. When you've got the pull then you can make the changes you want to see. And of course you can nitpick anything to death. I just see that you are reworking the piece so I try to help with it.

Personally I don't like a lot of game art not for its execution but just for the content. But even if somebody who is making what I don't consider to be good art is offering me a critique it can still be very useful from a technical standpoint.

Anyway, don't get jaded, get even!

Oh not jaded lol, I just find the whole situation really amusing. And the critique has been really useful.

I do think that most artists agree that regardless of how finished their pieces might be on artstation, they're always going to be works in progress at some level as far as their own personal development is concerned. 

I just can't make up my mind about what you specifically need to get work in the industry as far as portfolio's go. Its very subjective and there are far too many variables. If there were rules I think we'd all have jobs by now lol.
For my part I just try to focus on the ones I can control. But I do like writing about the ones I can't lol.

Alex_J

Yeah. I think biggest thing is having extensive network of friends. Like real friends, not just somebody who knows your name online. It's just how humans work. Second is the quality of work, which is the purpose of this community and similar. Maybe it's debateable that work quality should come first, but the thing is if people don't know you, your masterpieces will never be seen. And definitely art is a subjective thing but a lot of 3d art is very technical and can have clear standards of what is right or not.

I think for realistic style the devil is really in the little details.

Maybe you just aren't in the right headspace to make edits on this right now cause you just ifnished it recently. No way in hell I'm gonna touch my Durga for a few months, however I did open it up the other day and made a list of things I think I can improve to make it a lot stronger piece. But that's got to wait cause I want to do other stuff for awhile.Maybe you just need to let it sit for awhile till you get the motivation back to improve it.

NikhilR

I changed some of the material values to reduce the shininess (especially of the metals) + change in lighting following critique I received today at a networking event here in Montreal.

NikhilR

More lighting test to better render the metals.


Also defined the folds at the back better. There was a stupid bug that was affecting the lighting in the model.

NikhilR

Slight tonal variation to make the model pop more, likely will go with this version for the update.