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Advice & Critique for kitchen props scene

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Nick_Medukha polygon
Hi everyone,
Made a scene from 3 props for my portfolio and decided to post it here first, maybe some more experienced guys give an advice how to improve it :smile: 

I have used to go hunting with my dad when I was a child and we had that old house literally in the middle of the forest with this kind of a kitchen set - canned meat, pan and old kerosine stove. I did not create a wall with a cooking desk, spent much time on it but it just wasn't it, so i decided to put a wooden plane and added a spotlight 90deg on top to make a smooth gradient.

There are 4 lights total - top spotlight, 2 point lights in the back and one right under the pan - I wanted to create an emission from the flame but in reality its just a soft warm light, and I am not sure if I really need to tweak it, I am pretty much satisfied with this "warm" emission.

I want to put some more character in this scene, I know that lightning is a crucial part, so yeah, any advices, critique will be greatly appreciated.



Replies

  • Brian "Panda" Choi
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    Brian "Panda" Choi high dynamic range
    This is how you post an image directly into the thread.


  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Oh, thanks, edited
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    I've got probably ten different cast iron pans like this, and not one of them is perfectly flush across the top and all the way along the handle. Not saying its wrong, but it's look CG'ish to me. 

    Besides that, I think the natural dirtiness of the stove and the can and the can opener looks good, but the pan is very clean. Like brand new. I am sure you are familiar with the cool ways cast iron pans show their character after years of use. 

    Will you add some more props? Turn it into a full diorama, like "memories of hunting with dad" with some hunting gear and other junk strewn about. 

    For lighting you might think about what conditions inside the cabin might be. Maybe moonlight reflected off snow is coming in through an old yellow window. Maybe some propane torch is above. Just recreate some scenario and play around with some lights until it looks nice. Lots of chance for some nice reflections with all the metal props.
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Yeah, i agree with you about the pan, i also have one old pan at home, but didnt checked it out very well, just remembered that it has those bump along the sides.:disappointed:

    For the props.. Do you mean creating an entire room? Or kitchen table behind the wall? I feel that i can add something, like a knife/fork or wooden spatula, but for the actual room my childhood memories are weak and i just cant find references for actual old hunters hut in the forest.

    Thanks for advices, i will update the pan tomorrow :)


  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    You mentioned you wanted some more character in the scene, so i think you just got to write a little story in your head and then build the scene to show it. Maybe it's son and father frying the loin after a successful hunt, maybe they are getting breakfast while laying out all the gear to get ready to go out for the day... not saying you need the characters in the scene, just whatever gear and stuff might be laying around to give a sense of what has been going on. So the viewer can put clues together, spend time really dissecting the scene, and develop interest that way.

    Looks like you are solid with the modeling and texturing. Maybe just need more attention put into nailing authenticity by studying reference and also ways other artist have told stories visually. If it's to be a portfolio scene for a game artist maybe it just needs to be more fully fleshed out -- like a cabin you might walk into in an RPG like the withcher (not fantasy, i just mean that level of effort put into making the place have some sense of history)
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Okay, i finally got the idea in my head -

    EDIT:
    Chopping board
    Meat
    Replace can with pickles or something
    Salt/Pepper
    Rifle
    ?Fur?

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    awesome plan man. This is right up my alley so i'll look forward to the finished scene. I think as long as you keep as good of quality as you have now along with a thoughtfully composed scene, it will be a great piece. But hopefully some legit enviro and/or prop artist will let you know if you come up short anywhere. Good luck!
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    So first of all I received a lot of advices about how clean pan is looking in comparison with stove and can, so I added a really fat layer burned dirt, some scratches and a bit of rust, like if this pan was waiting us from the past hunting season - here it is :)




    And here it is in the scene:




    I might need to adjust the lights to better show rust, and also move the camera a bit up, so the bumps on the handle will be visible a bit more visible :)
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Update:
    Chopping board with raw meat, canned meat will go out :)

    Lighting also updated




  • arnov
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    arnov polycounter lvl 6
    I actually like the can, reminds me of field ration. Meat looks cool, chopping board might be too bloody, but its fine.
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Thank you, i think i will use it along with the opener in another project, cause it make no sense to eat a canned meat when you have fresh raw meat at the table :smiley:
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    Looking good man. I agree that the gore seems more like a scene from Resident Evil that a realistic depiction of a cutting board with a venison roast on it. Assuming the hunter bled the animal before butchering it, there shouldn't be that much blood in the meat. But then again, a lot of games that feature hunting tend to overdo the gore anyway, so maybe that's what people expect to see.

    I don't think you should get rid of the can and opener. It could be a can of mushrooms or something like that. Perfect for frying with the loin. 

    Keep it up!

    Image result for venison butchering
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Yeah, I might just apply some old label, like canned tomatoes or smth :smiley:

    I will reduce the amount of blood on the board, I agree that it look more from RE than a hunters scene :D
  • Finnn
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    Finnn greentooth
    @Nick_Medukha Your recent light update looks good. Way more realistic on the pan
    I would decrease the normal intesnity on your pan to make it more realistic
    You could change the roughness intensity of the material to a higher, less reflective
    You could make only some parts of the texture with low roughness to make them pop, like scratched parta where the covering of the pan is splattered away
    here is a ref that shows roughness variety I mean:




  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    @Finnn thanks for advice and a ref, I might play with bump/normal maps when I will do the final tweeking, I agree that I might have overdone it a bit :smiley:
    Also I will add a roughness mask to the center part, you are definitely right that scratched part will be a lot more rough than other parts.


    Here is also a small update: I created a rifle (not finished textures yet, need to add some hard-surface details and wear) with some bullets. Also reduced amount of blood on the chopping board.

    This is my first time modelling rifle, its model has some imperfections which are only seen in a close up. I will re-do the topology and ad some wear details to the texture.





  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d ngon master
    Seems to be coming together! Is the rifle in the scene to infer that was used to hunt the animal on the cutting board? If so, I think the rifle is much too early on in the 'story' to be included in this sort of scene, if that makes sense. Maybe it'll sit better if it was hanging on a gun rack on the wall in the background? My suggestion is that it might make more sense to add more relevant tools (skinning knife, butcher cleaver, etc.)
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    @Kanni3d I am also considering moving the rifle a bit away, but on the other hand, I think I will re-do it, make it like double barrel rifle, which is opened (broken in a half idk the right word :smiley: ) so it looks more interesting and could be presented as a standalone prop, so it might need some attention.

    Also I agree with the knife, I think that old butchers cleaver with its big steel part will give this scene a bit more colours, cause for now those all are too woody/yellow/orange too warm if you like, but cold steel might give it a bit of a freshness

    So plan for the next update:

    Update pan roughness
    Update bullets colour (too bright IMO)
    Re-do the rifle
    Cleaver
    Matches (to light the stove)



  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d ngon master
    @Kanni3d I am also considering moving the rifle a bit away, but on the other hand, I think I will re-do it, make it like double barrel rifle, which is opened (broken in a half idk the right word :smiley: ) so it looks more interesting and could be presented as a standalone prop, so it might need some attention.

    Also I agree with the knife, I think that old butchers cleaver with its big steel part will give this scene a bit more colours, cause for now those all are too woody/yellow/orange too warm if you like, but cold steel might give it a bit of a freshness

    So plan for the next update:

    Update pan roughness
    Update bullets colour (too bright IMO)
    Re-do the rifle
    Cleaver
    Matches (to light the stove)



    Break-action shotgun is what you're thinking of :P

    Those seem like good ideas, the bullets don't seem to be 'metallic', they come off more of like...painted wood. Or matte plastic. Give them shiny brass materials!
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Hey everybody! Hope you have a great NY time! Now its time go get back to work, so here is the update:

    New rifle, not much of a details, but I like it much more than previous.
    Bullets now became metallic, not plastic :smiley:

    New table! I decided to create a room, didn't textured walls yet, will decide later

    Matches & Cleaver also coming late night or tomorrow :)



    Critique, advice, composition/lighting ideas will be greatly appreciated :)
  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d ngon master
    @Nick_Medukha
    Those bullets.... do not match that shotgun :tongue:

  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    Yeah. You need some shotgun shells now, haha. An idea for scene composition might be to have the shotgun open on a side table or something with some cleaning items around it. 

    About the gun, I think the materials are on par with everything else so far but the modeling is not. The butt stock lacks theh subtle tapering on the grip portion and the joints were wood meets metal looks like it's missing some key details. Actually, regarding the material, the scratches on the buttstock seem a bit contrived. They are very random and don't look like the kind of scratches you'll see in wood. Also, throughout many years of extensive experience working with and around firearms, I've never seen a gun that looked that beat up. I know it's what you always see on artstation so maybe it's just my stupid pet peeve, but I get tired of seeing guns that look like people beat them with hammers. It's too contrived. I've seen machine guns in afghanistan that have been used in war for over sixty years that don't have the kind of overdone scratches and dents you see on artstation.

    Ahem, sorry don't mind the rant. Awesome work as usual, this is coming together nicely.
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Hey, @Kanni3d @BIGTIMEMASTER thanks for the continuous advices & critique! I saw the break-action rifle that my father owns, and it has these brass bullets. One thing - I didn't even know that double barrels can't shoot this type of bullets :smiley:

    I understand what you mean @BIGTIMEMASTER, I agree that rifle looked strangely dirty, like it wasn't possible to beat it in that way.

    I removed tear&wear from the rifle, also flipped it so it looks better from this angle IMO. I tried opening it, but I really didn't like the result, it just doesn't fit well.

    Sooo... cleaver, matches.. and I will need to finish this one. As I am learning lots of new things in this project, I could spend a very long time tweaking and updating it, but as If it was a real project, it needs to be done in time. So there will be last few updates, I would really appreciate any lightning/camera/composition tips to achieve cinematic atmosphere :)



  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Hey! Here is the latest version - modeling done.

    What do you think about textures? I might add more wear&tear to the table & rifle, those look too clean for me. Not the kind of random dirt as it was in the previous version of the rifle, but just a tiny bit.

    Will think about composition next few days


  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d ngon master
    Definitely more wear to the table, but not the rifle. Hunters especially are meticulous of their tools, and always will clean/care of them. :) good progress
  • Kanni3d
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    Kanni3d ngon master
    Definitely more wear to the table, but not the rifle. Hunters especially are meticulous of their tools, and always will clean/care of them. :) good progress
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Hey everyone!

    The work is done. It was a great project. I appreciate everyone who helped me, gave new ideas and made me re-do the existing models. It was my first thread on polycount and there was a strange psychological point: I felt like I cant brake this project, cause there was at least two people who told that they want to see the finals. I felt like I am responsible not to disappoint you guys :smile: 

    So here are the final renders. I know they are not that million A quality, I understand how long my path to perfection will be, but I am proud of my self :) If you like the work, please leave a like on my artstation :)



  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    It looks really great. In particular it's nice lighting and materials. 

    I don't think you should sell yourself short. A bit more work and I think this could stand up to the work of more experienced professionals. Just a matter of honing in the details and then really getting serious about the composition of the scene. 

    Of course I understand wanting to move on to something new , applying what you have learned, but if you need some strong portfolio work in the future maybe continuing on with this scene would be worth it.
  • Finnn
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    Finnn greentooth
    I agree with alex,
    you should push the scene a little further !
  • Thomas_Smith
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    Thomas_Smith polycounter lvl 3
    The scene is really dark, and it looks like the only light source is coming from the candle. Are there no other candles lit in this shack?  Awesome progress so far.
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    darkness may be a matter of device your viewing from. On my screen everything is pretty clear.
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    Wow, didn't thinks that you guys will interested in the guiding me to push this work forward :smile:

     @BIGTIMEMASTER @Finnn, I agree with both of you, that might be I need to add some more details. BUT, due to the lack of experience - I can only see some points here:

    1. Add marking to the shells
    2. Add extra details (inset text) to the stove, it actually had a lot of stamped text on the sides
    3. Change the shape of the meat, It looks like a ciabatta bread now :D
    4. Add labels on the canned stuff

    And one thing to really improve in next render - I actually agree with @Thomas_Smith, one good friend of mine told me that "darkness is hard". I think I will ad a bit more light, so the details (which we don't have a lot) will be more visible. I think will sacrifice the "atmosphere" for it.

    What do you think about this plan :) ?


  • Finnn
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    Finnn greentooth
    Right now, you have some nice props on a table. The bread looks indeedlike ciabatta :D
    I agree with the details you want to change, but when I said 'push the scene' I meant something else.

    To push the scene to a next level and make it a strong portfolio piece try to add some background story to your scene.
    For example make it a small cabin with a window and maybe some snow flowing in the from the wind.
    This could also improve your lighting, as you could introduce a very bright and cool light.
    You could also then place your props a little more distributed in the scene and less clutered. For example placing the gun next to the window. This way your viewer will not be overwhelmed by all the interesting props but will slowly move through your image.
    Here are some references for ideas.


    ALSO:
    Try to find your own ideas how you could push the scene, maybe you have something entirely different in your mind :)
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    Think less of details to add and more of telling a storyvisually. Look at traditional and 2d art tutorials to get instruction on this in more distilled form.Also, a bit indirect. but I think understanding the basics          of fiction writing can hhghelp as well,. Always good to diversify if you got time. 

    You may watch favorite movies playing attention to camera work and scene construction and well. Learn to see and to  communicate without words is the idea. 
  • alexk
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    alexk polycounter lvl 12
    Grats on finishing a new folio piece! The above posters have given some great advice. I recently finished a scene where I had several camera shots similar to yours. Where it was a bunch of props laid out on a table. These were the techniques that helped me push more story telling into my shots and hope they can also help you out

    Answer the Five W's
    Make and arrange props to try to answer as many as the Five W's as you can. Who, What, Where, When and Why. In your scene, we know what has happened. But the other W's aren't answered. Who did you hunt with? Perhaps there could have been a photo of you and your dad. Where was this hunt? As someone suggested, the background could be fleshed out a bit more to show the interior of a cabin and perhaps a window with some trees outside so we know its a forest. When was this hunt? Again, someone suggested it could be snowing, which can tell us that this hunt was during the winter season. Why was there a hunt? It seems like this was somewhat of a tradition with your dad, perhaps there could be props to show that this was an annual event. The Five W's can help define your overall story of the scene and can even be used on single props to add more story elements to them. For example, the rifle. Who owns this rifle? Perhaps there could be a name engraved somewhere. When was this rifle purchased? Right now it look pretty new. Perhaps it could be your dads old rifle that he's had for years and now he's handed it down to you so it'll be more scuffed up and used. 

    Defining the subject in your screenshots
    In each of your screenshots, you need to pick a subject. Then all the composition, lighting and camera angles will be focused on presenting this subject. For example, let's say in one of our screenshots, our subject will be the meat, cleaver and cutting board. Now you tell a story with just these props. Again, we go to the Five W's. What kind of meat is this? You say its deer meat, so how can we show this? Maybe there's recipe for deer meat written on a piece of paper somewhere. Is it cook rare, medium, well done? Perhaps the meat could be sliced to show this. 

    Composition Techniques
    - Use the rule of thirds to help place your subject and to give your screen shots more dynamics.

    - Your subject should be the most lit thing, compared to the surroundings. Not saying to add a blasting spotlight on whatever subject you have. But it should be the most bright compared to everything else in the screen shot. This is because the human eye tends to looks at the brightest lit area first. The human eye is also attracted to warm colors. Example from one of your screenshots. The eye will look at the (1) white specular reflection then (2) warm fire glow. This is not so bad if we want the meat, cutting board and cleaver to be the subject. We just need to move the camera so that it's more in the frame and ideally on a rule of thirds. We also can try to dim down some of the lighting from the can in the background and maybe even try to get more of this shiny white light onto the meat. 




    - Depth of Field. Anything that is in focus, means it's the subject. In this shot, you have some of the bullets and the gun as the focus, but there is no story to tell or interesting details in this focal area.



    - Use leading lines to guide the viewers eye to your subject. Use your props to "point" at your subject. This is an example from of my scenes where I use my props to point at the subject which is the photograph


    This is an example of the props you have that "point"


    Of course there are plenty of other composition techniques out there and there are many tutorials about their use in paintings and photography.

    Anyways, this went on a little longer than I expected! I hope it helps :)
  • Nick_Medukha
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    Nick_Medukha polygon
    hey @alexk thats a lot! I will definitely use that rule of five W's! It's a completely new point for me, and I trust it can help me to improve! 
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