Why are females so hard to sculpt ( need help) :)
polycounter lvl 14
Hey guys I have been practicing some head sculpts lately and for the most part I like how they turn out that is before i start sculpting females 
I just dont understand what am I doing wrong and with tons of reference I still cant tell what is wrong and how do I fix it?
Here is the problem one and after that I will post the busts that turned out a little more recognizable
Any bits of help and critiques helps a lot
those are the reference sheets i got for Amanda Peet but it looks nothing like her at the end ...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3377334/polycount/amanda%20peet%202.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3377334/polycount/amanda%20peet.jpg
and few other head sculpts
I just dont understand what am I doing wrong and with tons of reference I still cant tell what is wrong and how do I fix it?
Here is the problem one and after that I will post the busts that turned out a little more recognizable
Any bits of help and critiques helps a lot
those are the reference sheets i got for Amanda Peet but it looks nothing like her at the end ...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3377334/polycount/amanda%20peet%202.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3377334/polycount/amanda%20peet.jpg
and few other head sculpts
Replies
my 2cents at least
I think you can improve the lips, especially at the corners. They need to be deeper, and there's a little curve up at the end.
The eyes are also obviously very important to get right. I think you can improve the lids. Notice how the upper lid is thicker than the lower, and that the narrowest part is at the outside end, where the fat pad below the eyebrow covers it a bit. The definition around the tearduct is also a bit lumpy.
The nose is pretty close, but I think the bridge is blending to smoothly into the ball of the nose.
Good luck!
But seriously, we tend to put ourselves in our work. If you're a dude modeling a female, and you haven't really "mastered the craft" then you can end up with some pretty gnarly looking women.
Just a thought.
I would recommend using some anatomical reference photos made specifically for 3D artists, like 3D.sk or Virtual pose. Basically all you need is good frontal and side shots of the same head. The female head you have here have some fundamental anatomy flaws, which can be easily fixed by using good ref pictures.
Trying to recreate a face from such different pictures you have there is kinda hard.
Oh yeah, browsing through some digital sculpting galleries (Zbrushcentral) or classic sculptures helps alot, since those dont have texture and shape is much easier to read, you could learn alot from those.
JGcount : Thanks man. I see what you mean and I understand this I guess i just need to find a way to use this in my work.
Jaco - thanks a lot for the good point. I think many times when trying to sculpt something in order to stay away from cliches I tend to choose females or even males with not so attractive features. Thanks for the point for the lips and eye lids.. I had to retopo this because it is from a zscetch.
tylarpelto - thanks man
greever - thanks man I see it now. I was afraid I might loose the jaw all together if I move it in more. Sometimes I am very confused looking at reference and thinking about what I know about anatomy ( which as you can see it is not a lot) .
nfrrtycmplx - yeaa that must be it
slipgatecentral - thanks a lot. You are right I was having hard time using all of those different pictures she has different expressions on all of them and i guess that makes it harder. Also the make up of the eyes and so on can make it look so much different
I never used 3d.sk so far but i has been recommended so many times I will check it out
Thanks everybody.
I got some feedback already and going to fix some little things tomorrow and also going to give her hair and eyelashes
Any more help with this would be very appreciated.
For some quick ideas, might as well look at Hazardous' portfolio. Since he pretty much does nothing but girls.
Two Listen- thank you
Pior- thank you and this is probably very good suggestion - the thing is I am really bad with drawing, but I guess soon or later I need to learn. Just not too sure how I feel about learning to draw right now as I know it is not something that happens overnight.
Thanks again for all the tips I am going to finish her tomorrow and I was thinking to retopologize it and use this as a base mesh but this is probably not good idea as I feel I will learn more if i start from scratch every time.
Here is the image and thanks again everybody :
BTW I think you really should consider Pior's advice. It will make you a happier sculpter for sure. When you skip the concept stage, you have to think about two aspects of your work when you are working on the model: the design, forms, silhouette etc. and the execution methods like brushes, alphas etc. Separating those two stages will give you a faster and less bumpy way to work.
You're right about it not being an overnight process but I think you can start having fun in some weeks
I wouldn't do anything else if I where you until you fixed that head. Fixing your weaker models is a much more valuable learning process then simply starting from scratch and try again or move to something else. Don't run from your weaker pieces, they make you stronger.
EVIL - thanks for your advice man. I am actually not sure how this could be improved right now so this is why I wanted to start new one. I agree I dont have to run from my weak pieces and by doing this so far I learned a lot. I will have another look at her and see what else I can polish ...
Thanks again.
I've noticed you have a tendency to give your characters a jutting chin. Notice how the jaws on all of your characters, at least those we can see from the profile and clearly determine that, have a jutting chin )the jaw is pushed forward).
That could be a feature you have on your own face, or just a natural tendency because of the way you studies facial structure or something alike.
Women tend to have a receding chin, their jaw is pretty small and the bottom lip is usually behind the top lip. That's something you see in children, babies, etc.
Men tend to have bigger jaws, pushing their bottom lip over their top lip.
But that's not always the case.
Also important about females - most features are just hinted. The face is like a sleek, smooth surface from which all features just barely pop out of. you usually don't really see any hard features - if you took an AO pass of a female face, you'd barely have any shaded areas on it. Just eye lines, nostrils, very little around the nostril area, some lips, and hardly anything else. Even the brow area is very smooth and hinted. It's all about subtle details.
In general, female features are:
Smaller nose (even females with a big nose have a small nose when measured, it seems big compared to their face), much smaller jaw, round shapes, no corners or hard features, smooth surface on the face, hinted features. Also you might notice round eyebrows, big eye lashes, generally bigger eyes...
To make a face more feminine, try to look at "ideal" female faces.
From Tom Richmond's blog, the ones he gives as examples are:
Spencer Grammer, Marilyn Monroe, Audrey Hepburn, and once you see those you probably will be able to think of some of your own "ideal females".
Good luck!
Totally right about the chin - not sure about before but for this last one the reference I was using was like that. I will keep that in mind for the next face and even try how it looks on this one
Thank yo for the long reply- very helpful.
The names you mentioned got me confused for a second as those are popular female actress but to be honest they did not strike me with very attractive face features especially Spencer Grammer - yep she has big eyes but besides that .. hmm not sure - and I am not disagreeing here just trying to think. I believe thise are just typical female faces and I have to try to study them.
After reading Hazardous post about the females I guess the smartest thing would be to take attractive features from different faces and combine them together
Thanks again for the help.
About the names I mentioned - well, they're not supposed to be attractive, just typical. The proportions are "typical female". You can find plenty of typical females and many of them will be unattractive to you, but the features are all similar proportions and the overall shape of the head (as mentioned, wider, higher cheekbones, etc) is very similar.
Which brings me to the next point:
I wouldn't recommend creating a mix of different faces you find attractive.
There's something you probably heard of called "uncanny valley" - this is the feeling we get when we look at something that's been created by man, but tries to mimic nature.
Artists with great expertise can pull it off - inventing faces from scratch, mixing features, animating natural movement, behavior, etc. It's by no means impossible. But that's further away down the road. You might get some good results by trying to mix features, but that's not "the way to go" if you ask me. I think a better practice would be to really, really study a few faces you find appealing, and then, after hours of practice on those specific features, try to draw/sculpt a face using your intuition. That what I usually do - I find things that really inspire me, I study them a lot, and then I use the bits of information I took from those studies and I try to let them influence my work in general. Can't say I do that enough, by the way.
I am on it . Will show results soon
Thanks a lot
I also started drawing as I was advised and to be honest I am not sure what am I doing
Nothing really worth critiques I guess just posting my first drawings on paper . It does feel way more comfortable to sketch on paper than on the tablet, but when it gets to shading I am not so sure what is going to happen. I am gonna do more of those before I try to do a real face I guess.
And just wanted to try this to see how bad it is
Now I see i have a supper long way to go with the drawing and I will be trying when I have time but in the meantime I will do another bust
Thanks everybody.
I worked on another female bust. Started from zspheres again and I did not add hair yet as I am not sure what am i doing with this head - I might use it for a full character
So better, worst?
Thanks.