I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, I've made my opinions on schooling pretty obvious in other threads - But if you went to a school because their low standards would let you creep in, how could you possibly expect a 'top of the line' education that would result in a job or a better outcome than what you have? It's not like you were tricked or anything, if they let 'anyone' in...there's probably a reason.
It's good that reality is hitting you like this because if you keep pushing forward, it'll make you a better employee. I think this slap in the face, as it were, is almost inevitable and a natural part of growing as a game developer. Learning that you aren't as good as your friends tell you, learning that it's not art - it's a product with creative merits, learning that not everyone gets to work on Halo or Doom, etc. - it makes you better and isn't something that can be taught in school.
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, I've made my opinions on schooling pretty obvious in other threads - But if you went to a school because their low standards would let you creep in, how could you possibly expect a 'top of the line' education that would result in a job or a better outcome than what you have? It's not like you were tricked or anything, if they let 'anyone' in...there's probably a reason.
It's good that reality is hitting you like this because if you keep pushing forward, it'll make you a better employee. I think this slap in the face, as it were, is almost inevitable and a natural part of growing as a game developer. Learning that you aren't as good as your friends tell you, learning that it's not art - it's a product with creative merits, learning that not everyone gets to work on Halo or Doom, etc. - it makes you better and isn't something that can be taught in school.
I think you jumped the gun in your first paragraph. I wasn't looking for low standards. The main thing was my grades from high school were really bad. I think you've miss read that section of my blog post. Perhaps I should have made it more clear. My grades at Mercer Country were better, about a B average, but I only took a few classes.
Sorry your experience of game design in higher education was like that... but as Gav kinda mentions, the school was for-profit and probably didn't have your interests at heart, unlike a nonprofit art school or a research university that's probably comparable in cost but a lot more student-centered.
Sorry your experience of game design in higher education was like that... but as Gav kinda mentions, the school was for-profit and probably didn't have your interests at heart, unlike a nonprofit art school or a research university that's probably comparable in cost but a lot more student-centered.
well, I did my ranting in another thread too. The blog is a point of view and I tried to be as fair as possible to both my school and myself. most people rarely admit their own faults let alone write about them. The school itself may not have had my best interests at heart but there were plenty of people in the school that did. One of the things I wanted people to get from my blog is that these people aren't in a position to really help their students the they should be helped. I hope that came across in my blog.
No, I don't think I misread. If a school is willing to take a student with lower grades, how could you expect them to be amazing? Isn't that basically how all schools work? Like, if you don't have MIT grades - you don't get an MIT education. So, by needing to get into a school that does have lower standards than what would be considered the 'good schools', which they do, they give you that level of education - and that's exactly what you got.
You admit that you made a lot of mistakes, like not knowing how the industry actually works prior to going to school - or researching your school. Fair enough, tons of people make that mistake (myself being one of them.) It's hard to know what to look for if you know absolutely nothing about the industry. But, it just seems to me like you're holding this school up to a standard that better schools would meet while admitting knowing full well that they weren't top tier before even attending class.
I'm not accusing you of this, exactly, but it seems like a lot of students bitch about not being able to get a job right out of school even though their portfolio stinks and isn't to the industry standard. LOTS of students put themselves up against other students rather than against industry pros. So, rather than just swallowing their pride, working on a new portfolio and pushing on - they blame the school for not preparing them. This isn't a business degree, you can't learn the ins and outs of the industry in a few years, be spit out and ready to produce AAA assets.
It annoys me that rather than take responsibility, people seem to point the finger of blame. Look at the comments on your blog - the people sharing your same experience, for what it's worth:
-the first poster "Jonathan"..look at his portfolio (design or art..) it's all VERY crude and miles and years away from a junior position in an established company. After years of schooling, good or bad, he 's complaining about lack of industry internships and having 'pre industry jitters' No fucking wonder. If you were the AD or design lead on a project, with any commercial ambitions, would you seriously give this guy a chance?
-mauricio, from what I can tell, made arkanoid with worse graphics and is patting himself on the back for making in on the front page of a website no one pays attention to. Again, another person putting value to someone just saying 'you're good' rather than actually looking at himself compared to a professional standard. Contrary to what he says, it IS because of his incompetence. He admits to failing, his portfolio isn't anything to talk about and - If this guy isn't American, based on what he says, but is looking for an internship here..good luck.
I see this a lot, it's a naive mentality to have. You worked really hard at school, like most people on this forum and in the industry, and tried to make the most with what you had. Your teachers praised you, as they should with positive reinforcement for hard work and, seemingly, that went to your head. You were in the top 5 of your fairly unimportant school of all time...and the only ones that that matters to is you, your team and your school. Outside of that bubble, it means nothing. The BEST game that that school produced probably isn't at a level of quality that would get anyone a job. That's not the schools fault, they actually succeeded, they've given you a basis to 'do your thing.' Like Adam has said, you would all need to scrap hat work anyway and start fresh. Basically, students need to look past the words of their friends and teachers that are more or less paid to tell them that they are good and wait for the approval of professionals that have no emotional or financial attachment to them.
Everyone has drive, everyone loves games, everyone would love to work on games and - with some encouraging words from thieves and people who don't know better - think they have what it takes. The only real problem is that you aren't good enough. As you say, your best wasn't good enough. It's not the school for suckering you, you purposely went to a school that couldn't deliver at a high standard or, what you would consider, your first choices for good reason. It's not the economy, the industry fluctuates and even in the worst of times, I know people getting jobs...are there less openings for juniors? Maybe. But that's not the economy, that's you not being at a high enough quality to be marketable.
Blah blah blah, I could go on. I actually agree with your point, I don't think schools are structured to meet industry requirements and I think there are a lot of cash grab schools out there...I just think you and A LOT of students present the argument in a bad way.
Edit> I'm just curious what kind of help would be expected from the school and teachers? You can't just make someone good enough to be in the industry...it's financially impossible to hold every students hand every step of the way and make them 'see' how to do something right. It just takes time to develop those skills. If you are marketable, the school would probably help you get a job and plaster your face all over the school because 'x student works at y company and went to school here' But, if you're not good enough, they just can't force a company to take you.
I think first of all, focusing on grades when you are in an art school is just plain silly, especially when or if your teachers don't exactly know what to look for (if they don't have experience in this field). In my opinion, you shouldn't care about your GPA, you should care about how your work compares to others who are looking to get into the industry, and those who are already in.
Its hard though because I'm sure teachers use this "i have the power to grade you" as an advantage, so it probably scares a lot of people, and it's a big concern if your teachers don't have any experience in the field you are interested, since they can only speculate about things instead of truly knowing... which sucks.
And the other main thing (you hit this a bit as well in your blog post) it comes down to how much effort you put into your work, and it matters MORE about how much effort you put in AFTER school hours and AFTER school is done. Judging by your current portfolio, you can certainly push yourself more, I'm sure you were probably one of the better ones in your class, but never measure yourself to other students, always measure yourself to those who are currently in the industry.
I wish you luck man, just keep on pushing yourself and forget about this whole school shit, whats done is done, and now all you should focus on is making your portfolio amazing, and landing your first gig!
No, I don't think I misread. If a school is willing to take a student with lower grades, how could you expect them to be amazing? Isn't that basically how all schools work? Like, if you don't have MIT grades - you don't get an MIT education. So, by needing to get into a school that does have lower standards than what would be considered the 'good schools', which they do, they give you that level of education - and that's exactly what you got.
You admit that you made a lot of mistakes, like not knowing how the industry actually works prior to going to school - or researching your school. Fair enough, tons of people make that mistake (myself being one of them.) It's hard to know what to look for if you know absolutely nothing about the industry. But, it just seems to me like you're holding this school up to a standard that better schools would meet while admitting knowing full well that they weren't top tier before even attending class.
I'm not accusing you of this, exactly, but it seems like a lot of students bitch about not being able to get a job right out of school even though their portfolio stinks and isn't to the industry standard. LOTS of students put themselves up against other students rather than against industry pros. So, rather than just swallowing their pride, working on a new portfolio and pushing on - they blame the school for not preparing them. This isn't a business degree, you can't learn the ins and outs of the industry in a few years, be spit out and ready to produce AAA assets.
It annoys me that rather than take responsibility, people seem to point the finger of blame. Look at the comments on your blog - the people sharing your same experience, for what it's worth:
-the first poster "Jonathan"..look at his portfolio (design or art..) it's all VERY crude and miles and years away from a junior position in an established company. After years of schooling, good or bad, he 's complaining about lack of industry internships and having 'pre industry jitters' No fucking wonder. If you were the AD or design lead on a project, with any commercial ambitions, would you seriously give this guy a chance?
-mauricio, from what I can tell, made arkanoid with worse graphics and is patting himself on the back for making in on the front page of a website no one pays attention to. Again, another person putting value to someone just saying 'you're good' rather than actually looking at himself compared to a professional standard. Contrary to what he says, it IS because of his incompetence. He admits to failing, his portfolio isn't anything to talk about and - If this guy isn't American, based on what he says, but is looking for an internship here..good luck.
I see this a lot, it's a naive mentality to have. You worked really hard at school, like most people on this forum and in the industry, and tried to make the most with what you had. Your teachers praised you, as they should with positive reinforcement for hard work and, seemingly, that went to your head. You were in the top 5 of your fairly unimportant school of all time...and the only ones that that matters to is you, your team and your school. Outside of that bubble, it means nothing. The BEST game that that school produced probably isn't at a level of quality that would get anyone a job. That's not the schools fault, they actually succeeded, they've given you a basis to 'do your thing.' Like Adam has said, you would all need to scrap hat work anyway and start fresh. Basically, students need to look past the words of their friends and teachers that are more or less paid to tell them that they are good and wait for the approval of professionals that have no emotional or financial attachment to them.
Everyone has drive, everyone loves games, everyone would love to work on games and - with some encouraging words from thieves and people who don't know better - think they have what it takes. The only real problem is that you aren't good enough. As you say, your best wasn't good enough. It's not the school for suckering you, you purposely went to a school that couldn't deliver at a high standard or, what you would consider, your first choices for good reason. It's not the economy, the industry fluctuates and even in the worst of times, I know people getting jobs...are there less openings for juniors? Maybe. But that's not the economy, that's you not being at a high enough quality to be marketable.
Blah blah blah, I could go on. I actually agree with your point, I don't think schools are structured to meet industry requirements and I think there are a lot of cash grab schools out there...I just think you and A LOT of students present the argument in a bad way.
Edit> I'm just curious what kind of help would be expected from the school and teachers? You can't just make someone good enough to be in the industry...it's financially impossible to hold every students hand every step of the way and make them 'see' how to do something right. It just takes time to develop those skills. If you are marketable, the school would probably help you get a job and plaster your face all over the school because 'x student works at y company and went to school here' But, if you're not good enough, they just can't force a company to take you.
When did I ever say that I thought that Collins was so amazing. I didn't know Collins was not as good as Full Sail or Digi-Pen.
So if you don't get into Princeton University does that mean every other school is crap and you should just stay home and teach yourself. There are a lot of people that won't be getting MIT education. But I thought school is what you put into it right?
"You admit that you made a lot of mistakes, like not knowing how the industry actually works prior to going to school - or researching your school."
Isn't that the point? Most students looking for an education in games don't know the difference between Digi-Pen and Westwood college. Majoring in game design or game art or what ever isn't like majoring in physics. It's not like Princeton U is offering game design degrees. You're unsure of which school to go to because they're all telling you that they know what they're talking about. We know Harvard is better then some community college for a business major because it's been there since the 80s.
And I have no clue who those people were that made comments on my blog. But I should at least thank them for reading it. Considering I'm a nobody in this industry.
We could show a little humility to people that made the same mistake that we once did. Of course that doesn't mean we let it slide either.
I think first of all, focusing on grades when you are in an art school is just plain silly, especially when or if your teachers don't exactly know what to look for (if they don't have experience in this field). In my opinion, you shouldn't care about your GPA, you should care about how your work compares to others who are looking to get into the industry, and those who are already in.
Its hard though because I'm sure teachers use this "i have the power to grade you" as an advantage, so it probably scares a lot of people, and it's a big concern if your teachers don't have any experience in the field you are interested, since they can only speculate about things instead of truly knowing... which sucks.
And the other main thing (you hit this a bit as well in your blog post) it comes down to how much effort you put into your work, and it matters MORE about how much effort you put in AFTER school hours and AFTER school is done. Judging by your current portfolio, you can certainly push yourself more, I'm sure you were probably one of the better ones in your class, but never measure yourself to other students, always measure yourself to those who are currently in the industry.
I wish you luck man, just keep on pushing yourself and forget about this whole school shit, whats done is done, and now all you should focus on is making your portfolio amazing, and landing your first gig!
"I think first of all, focusing on grades when you are in an art school is just plain silly,..."
Well, if you come from a system that says your grades are paramount to your success, then why would you think differently?
And Collins wasn't an art school.
"In my opinion, you shouldn't care about your GPA, you should care about how your work compares to others who are looking to get into the industry, and those who are already in."
Yes, I realize that now. But there's no point in saying this after that fact. We should be saying this stuff to people who don't know.
I think one of the problems with the game design schools popping up is it's fairly new.
Besides a few top notch schools.. there's not a lot of basis to understand the quality of the education.
I remember being in high school, learning about AI, (The Art Institutes), and was floored someone was actually offering game design degrees. I was sold. (this was 2002-3)
I did my research, but at the time there weren't a lot of people going 'man those AI degress are worthless'.
This is less and less the case nowadays, but a lot of highschool students think they're gonna have an easy in, and don't understand that the game industry is just as competitive as anything out there, and the schools you want to go to are the same.
Either way, it doesn't change the fact that those kids who were always really focused from the start will have a better chance of getting the positions they want.
There's a real laziness factor with every generation, and the games industry kind of appeals to academically lazy gamers who relate their enthusiasm with playing games, as actual capacity to do the work to make them. A severe misconception imo. I couldn't believe how many students at these schools simply did not have what it takes.
It takes dedication and skill to do anything, and games aren't really any different.
- also, just to point out, I got in the game industry fairly easy, then I was laid off a year later when the economy nose dived.
If you're looking for a job right now, you're basically shit out of luck if you're new to it all. The economic situation probably has a very strong influence on new talent coming in.
If school is what you put into it, and you truly think that, you have no right to blame them for you not getting a job - which you do as you contribute them as a reason for your failure.
There are a lot of people not getting an MIT education, but I certainly hope that they don't fool themselves into thinking a throw away college will give them the same toolset.
Though I think you quoted me out of context...yeah, that is a point to be made. It would be great if everyone knew exactly what they were getting with game schools and that that education was actually relevant to the industry - But - you said yourself that this wasn't you first option...SO, if it's not your first option, there's obviously a reason. So, you DID know the difference or could at least see that the schools had different entry standards...you obviously made an educated choice and some amount of research into your schooling.
Though there is no princeton gaming degree..there are established schools with more reputable education that you named as your first choice. So, it's not like every option is on the same level.
I only point out the posters on your blog because, in that instance, they would be your direct peers. I'm not saying you DO know them, 'm pointing them out as an example of frustrated students that think they have what it takes but point the finger at anything but themselves. You can thank them if you want, but you're pretty much preaching to the choir.
If school is what you put into it, and you truly think that, you have no right to blame them for you not getting a job - which you do as you contribute them as a reason for your failure.
There are a lot of people not getting an MIT education, but I certainly hope that they don't fool themselves into thinking a throw away college will give them the same toolset.
Though I think you quoted me out of context...yeah, that is a point to be made. It would be great if everyone knew exactly what they were getting with game schools and that that education was actually relevant to the industry - But - you said yourself that this wasn't you first option...SO, if it's not your first option, there's obviously a reason. So, you DID know the difference or could at least see that the schools had different entry standards...you obviously made an educated choice and some amount of research into your schooling.
Though there is no princeton gaming degree..there are established schools with more reputable education that you named as your first choice. So, it's not like every option is on the same level.
I only point out the posters on your blog because, in that instance, they would be your direct peers. I'm not saying you DO know them, 'm pointing them out as an example of frustrated students that think they have what it takes but point the finger at anything but themselves. You can thank them if you want, but you're pretty much preaching to the choir.
Did I not make it clear that I take the majority of the blame? You're the one that pointed out that if you don't go to MIT then you're just not good enough to go to school and should just stay home because every other school will be below standards.
ArchangelZero made a good point in another thread.
"... I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all [of your information is] from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters."
I'd like to point out I know a guy who goes to MIT, getting a doctorate in chemistry. Knew him since 3rd grade.
He was clearly, since I've known him... the smartest of us all. Always top of the class.
Not everyone can be that guy... I don't think he was even particularly more aware of his capacity as a tangible trait. Kids just don't understand... it's a bit much to suggest they simply need to be more cognisant, and that's it. Somebody informing you what's up helps.
My experience of the whole uni edu thing is that finished high school at 17 and not having a clue what else to do with myself, i knew I wanted to go to uni, my brothers had and my parents wanted me too. A lot of people give advice on here about if you want to work in the games industry just start working on your portfolio, you don't need to go to university but I knew I didn't have the mindset for this. Anyway the course I went on was Computer Arts (so not solely games based) and from what I had heard had a great reputation so I worked hard to get the grades required to get on this course.
I didn't learn a great deal about game art, but it gave me a taster into many different disciplines from film, animation, graphic design etc and from there I knew I wanted to create 3D art as I loved it. Univeristy however did give me a love for learning and I definatly crave knowledge a lot more now (maybe thats just partly due to getting older though). Plus I've made a lot of connections through uni and good friends, maybe not currently working in the games industry but lots of them will be one day.
Would I do things differently if I went back 4 years? Yea probably. Do I regret going to uni? Not one minute of it (well maybe a few drunken nights but thats a different matter..)
Best advice I have ever been given in my years at uni was given from Nick Carver (the polycounter I heard of through family connections) and he told me "Join a forum called Polycount".
Edit: On another note University Education in Scotland is pretty much free so was a win win...
This isn't a business degree, you can't learn the ins and outs of the industry in a few years, be spit out and ready to produce AAA assets.
This is the gripe I have with Arts based courses\degrees in general. In England it costs the same to do a degree in computer game art as it does to do a Physics or Business degree. The latter two will clearly walk you into any job interview, yet your computer games degree isnt worth the paper its written on. Furthermore, it wont even get you an interview at a computer games company, because after three years you dont have a decent portfolio!
A years fees at a UK university roughly equates to a course at Full Sail, yet the standards are nowhere near the same.
So my point is this.
When you are paying something like £10,000 for a Game Art degree, WHY cant you learn the ins and outs of the industry and be ready to spit out AAA assets in three years?
Engineering students learn to build fcking bridges in three years, Full Sail teach their lot absolutely loads in their timeframe, so in my eyes it is inexusable to have students leaving a 3 year couse with a poorly presented irrelevant portfolio and the vague advice to 'build one in your own time'.
Hmm, you are missing very simple information and jumping to conclusions. I never, ever, said that it's the best or nothing and that if you aren't good enough, you shouldn't go to school - I'm saying that there are obvious tiers of schools (I can't believe I'm explaining this again to you) and that you shouldn't bitch about getting a B grade education from a B grade school. I certainly am not blaming my game art school for not giving me as great of a fine art education as I could of had from a fine arts school.
You say you take most of the blame, but if that was the case you wouldn't be going out of your way to make a blog that bitches about the school. The shitty school that you personally chose in comparison to good schools.
That quote is accurate, I practically said the exact same thing a few posts above this one. I was there, I know. I had to do all of the research on my own as well. What would be really great is if the industry was taken more seriously by secondary schools where career advisors could give helpful information.
Hmm, you are missing very simple information and jumping to conclusions. I never, ever, said that it's the best or nothing and that if you aren't good enough, you shouldn't go to school - I'm saying that there are obvious tiers of schools (I can't believe I'm explaining this again to you) and that you shouldn't bitch about getting a B grade education from a B grade school. I certainly am not blaming my game art school for not giving me as great of a fine art education as I could of had from a fine arts school.
You say you take most of the blame, but if that was the case you wouldn't be going out of your way to make a blog that bitches about the school. The shitty school that you personally chose in comparison to good schools.
That quote is accurate, I practically said the exact same thing a few posts above this one. I was there, I know. I had to do all of the research on my own as well. What would be really great is if the industry was taken more seriously by secondary schools where career advisors could give helpful information.
So I guess you define criticism as bitching, but your criticism of me isn't bitching.
And what I'm trying to say is that those tiers aren't obvious. It may be obvious for a business degrees but not game education. You only think it's obvious because you're looking at this issue after the fact.
I still think you're a cool guy Gav. We should have a drink together sometime.
Drav, actually, it is worth the paper it's written on. If anything that piece of paper has saved my ass for immigration, no matter what meaningless education I had to go through for it.
I'm not going to pretend to know 'why' game degrees aren't as cut and dry as business or physics or whatever - I just know it's not. Maybe because there are a lot of outside factors that make a person valuable in our industry. You can't just look at someone's grades and know that this person will be a productive employee. Maybe it's because the 'craft' isn't as straightforward as business principles and mathematical formulas - you need to teach someone the programs, teach them about the industry AND give them time to create a portfolio that is industry worthy. It's the same for any creative field.
kaze: "The Audacity of Game Education" seems like a biased complaint to me. Man - again - you said you picked the school because they had lower entry requirements. In ANY educational situation, lower entry requirements probably means lower quality. That's common sense, you don't need to know anything about game schools to make that connection.
I think drinks are great, I just got the feeling that I'd spend a good hour explaining to you that an IPA will never taste like a stout.
A piece of personal advice: I went to a game art school that I didn't like, complained a lot about it, lost my faith in higher education in general and so on. Forgetting about all that and moving on sure improved the quality of my life. Of course that's easy to say when you don't even want to get into games anymore, but still .
Uh, no it doesn't. Not even nearly. A game art degree course at Full Sail costs $75,000.
shit, just as well I didnt do a maths degree....
And IPA isnt as good as Guiness.....
Aha, here's a slightly OT question now you've brought up immigration......If I'm applying for a job in the US, does it have to be a relevent degree or is any degree enough to tick the box?
For instance I have a degree in sound engineering, is it any good for applying to work as a modeller in the US of A?
ipa and stout both have their place, but don't expect guiness quality in a keith's bottle.:)
As for immigration, it depends, really. I'm canadian and my visa fell under nafta laws. Within the careers specified there, yes, I think you need a relevant degree. How this works for other countries though, I have no idea...and, of course, lawyers can be a great help. A part of that requirement set, though, was a piece of paper from my school. Had I of not gotten that, I would have missed out on a great opportunity. So, as much as I slam schools, that piece of paper is extremely valuable if you ever plan to work abroad.
i totally agree with you about schools out there baiting peeps w/glorious promises of game jobs. but at the same time........mcdonalds baits you w/pictures of a perfect burger. then you order it...and it's a turd between buns. it's a business move man, it happens everywhere. i went to a shitbag AI school. i worked my ASS off...came home...worked it off some more. 3 months after grad, i got a job working on ps2/xbox/gamecube games(this was a while ago...ha).
i'm not saying you didn't work hard. but it really depends on what you put in. don't get me wrong i agree with you about the game design edu thing. one of my "teachers" on the first day for a modeling class said "i can't teach you anything...it's all about learning on your own". and at the time i should have stood up and punched the dude. i mean...there are SOOOOOOOO many things that can be taught to someone. and this was a former midway employee that was regarded as a "major asset" in the school's teaching program. "i can't teach you anything".......PFT....like you didn't learn any tricks working at a large studio? this shit's ALL ABOUT tricks. anyways.....don't know where i'm going....god damn this lagunitas.
i hear you man....BUT...at the same time. don't blog the probs. fix them, and start kickin some ass.
**@gav......that was the weirdest thing. my name is keith.....i posted something bout lagunitas while YOU posted the above post....and you said something bout ipa......then keith's bottle? wtf?
Gav: really? you think I come across as "hot shit"? Since when?
If you think my blog post is biased that's fine, but I don't agree.
Again, for the last time, I didn't say I picked the school because they had lower entry requirements. Now it sounds like you're just projecting. For all I know I could've been accepted to a school like Digi-Pen and it was all in my head. And I should have followed up and asked more questions. But (I can't believe I'm explaining this again) I thought at the time that my school of choice was equal to the others. Clearly I was wrong.
The requirements to get into Rutgers is lower then Princeton but does that mean Rutgers sucks? One of my friends from high school got into Rutgers and his grades were just as good as mine.
Keith: Welcome to the time warp, my friend. Alexander Keith's is a Canadian IPA...it's alright, I guess.
Kaze: You are explaining yourself over and over again but you are explaining a hypocritical logic. You DID say you picked the school because of the lower entry requirements or, rather, picked them because other schools had higher ones...same shit. What you lacked was common sense, not an education about game schools.
"Hot shit" is a generalization, I guess. I think a lot of kids fresh out of school think they are much better than they are because liars and people who don't know better tell them so.
Edit> I'm done man, I don't think I can explain myself any further. As a formal criticism to your blog post: I agree with you to an extent, I just think you need a stronger basis for your argument.
Keith: Welcome to the time warp, my friend. Alexander Keith's is a Canadian IPA...it's alright, I guess.
Kaze: You are explaining yourself over and over again but you are explaining a hypocritical logic. You DID say you picked the school because of the lower entry requirements or, rather, picked them because other schools had higher ones...same shit. What you lacked was common sense, not an education about game schools.
"Hot shit" is a generalization, I guess. I think a lot of kids fresh out of school think they are much better than they are because liars and people who don't know better tell them so.
Edit> I'm done man, I don't think I can explain myself any further. As a formal criticism to your blog post: I agree with you to an extent, I just think you need a stronger basis for your argument.
I have to explain myself over and over again because you're not getting it.
"hypocritical logic" Bullshit!
If I knew and wanted to go to a school with lower standards, that would be hypocritical.
Wow this thread is full of some serious business. It's not a game education that makes you a good game designer/artist, it's the time you put in outside of school that is going to get you a job. I agree with Gav and Zwebbie, people who are disappointed with their education spend more time bickering than they do moving on and making amazing art.
Kaze, Gav has given you some very valuable and useful information that will help you as an artist, if you can stop trying to defend yourself and simply read it, try to understand it and move on, you will be better for it.
open your portfolio, look at your work
open a few professional gameindustry artists portfolios and look a their work, notice the difference and just start working your ass off
you can start blaming shit your entire life but in the end you still won't be doing what you want to do.
I'm currently attending Central Piedmont Community College in Charlotte NC. If I am not mistaken they were the first Community College in the country to offer the Simulation and Game Development degree. Although I see problems in the program overall I think I am benefiting from it. I say this because of the few fellow students that work long hours developing their skills. We learn off of each other and every now and then I actually do learn something from the program. Also, I would say that 95% of the student body isn't anywhere close to where they need to be. Like many other programs most of the students seem to want to play games on their computers all day. When it comes time to finding jobs these people will be weeded out. Honestly, I have learned most of my modeling from CGtut's, Eat3D, and lets not forget Polycount.
Here is an email I got from the Creative Director and a prominent Game Development studio in Raleigh. I'm not going to mention his name just for privacy reasons. I think that every student should be shown this email when they start their game development program. Please disregard some random information that was meant for me personally.
_____________________________________________
My advice is simple, be passionate and love what you do. Truly love it.
The most successful people I know in any field of work, including games, do what they love at all free hours of the day. In school they would practice their craft outside of work, seek to do it day and night, thinking about it at all points in-between. They go beyond the assigned classwork and seek to challenge themselves to grow their abilities. They lust for knowledge and reach out to be mentored by people already in the industry they seek to be in.
Learn from the best to be the best. It's a simple concept, and it works. These days, it is tough to break in the industry because of the economy and all the lay-offs that have happened recently. There are a lot of experienced devs out there that are also looking for work. Things will get better, it's all a cycle, but in the meantime I recommend working with other students to make your own games. Target XBLA Indie, iPhone/iPad, Android, or Flash (but it's harder to make money on Flash games). Do it more for experience and the love of making games than trying to make money. Money could come from it, but it's not guaranteed that it will happen right away.
So what it all comes down to is your passion, how much you want it. Ask yourself some questions. How badly do you want to make games for a living? How hard will you work to grow your skillsets? What, if anything, would you ever let get in your way of achieving your dreams?
Game development is a job that is sought by many people. You have to go further on all fronts to stand out and be the one that gets hired. I see people come in for jobs straight out of school. Some show me their classwork, even their team assignment, or their portfolio they generated from their assignments. When I ask them what they have to show from their work outside of the school curriculum, most have no examples. Those students are ONLY looking for a "Cool Job". They are going to school and doing only what they are told they should do (bare minimum) to get the degree and get a job. They don't love what they do, and thus won't excel and drive innovation in their discipline at our company (or any other).
I'm glad you had fun and enjoyed coming down to the offices. Hopefully you can continue to participate in the focus tests we hold in the future.
Do these pop up once a year or what? I cringe every time I read one of them, thinking that if instead of taking the time to write these, they could of spent it on their portfolio.
Your post asks if the game education system will improve or change. Personally, I think its the students attitudes that need to change. Every time these rants pop up, they all expect the school to hand hold them straight into a job. That's incredibly unrealistic! And totally puts down those students who go through the curriculum and then pushes themselves even further on their own time to improve their skills. It almost sounds like you wanted to buy yourself into your dream job. So you have to understand that sometimes these posts can strike a nerve to those who bust their ass to get a job in the industry.
And despite the economy, layoffs and closures, people are still getting jobs. TONS of people have the Passion and love for this craft, but not as many have the drive. Drive is what gets you over the bumps in the road and makes you go forward despite the setbacks
just because a college lets everyone in doesn't mean you can't learn anything, nor that the teachers are unqualified and that you'll be getting a bad education.
You get a MIT education if MIT decides you're MIT material - i.e. they make sure that you have what it takes to make the most of their courses. The same applies to all other schools with admission tests.
If MIT lets everyone in (i.e. people who just aren't smart enough) then they'll have the same problem places like AI have. Doesn't necessarily mean MIT education (teachers, curriculum) are bad.
The real big downside of a no admission college is that you're stuck in classes with lots of untalented people from which you can not learn a lot and who'll drag motivation and morale down. It's a much more tough place to learn - even if the teachers are worth their money. (although you'll probably find the better teachers at colleges with higher standards - after all who wants to work with lots people who can't follow your class?)
From my personal experiences with (a not so great ) school, it's easiest to blame the school and it's programs but I feel like a majority of the fault should be put on the person.
I spent a lot of my high school time teaching myself 3d, and ended up going to a community college with an animation program, because I couldn't afford the nicer schools I got into. I was able to get through pretty much all my classes with relative ease and lack of effort; for the first year. I had a lot of fun that year!
The second year when I was a bit more serious, I started realizing how...unmotivated some of my classmates were, and how.... "confusing" my professors were. I spent most of the time angry, and eventually decided to take a "FUCK IT" approach to my schoolwork, and focused 99% of my time to personal projects and challenges. Me and the other super motivated kids in the class became really good friends, and ended up kind of cutting ourselves off from the rest of the group, which we got lightly ridiculed for, being called some-kind of secret club. We basically dedicated all our free time to doing cg, while most of the class would sit on facebook or be playing flash games. Even after we would suggest doing tutorials or making portfolio pieces, most would give us some excuse.
So after finishing the two years (associates degree) did I graduate? nope. was school helpful? not really. Have I applied for industry jobs and failed? yes. But all of this is just motivation to keep going forward. Sorry for the rant.
(I'm finishing my degree this semester <_< )
You need honesty, hard work and a company of like-minded people in order to make it in pretty much any creative industry. Any school will provide environment for this. Expecting more from schools is a waste of time. It will never happen.
I went to a for-profit school and learned a lot about both the technical and traditional facets of game art and design.
I was not able to get my skills up to the level I wanted and chose to graduate earlier than I would have if bills weren't piling up.
Now I spend my days working oddjobs just enough to pay the bills, lifting weights and studying my craft like some sort of imprisoned supervillain plotting his revenge.
after all this 'should've worked harder, should've expected less', there is failing somewhere, i dont know if its the patently false hints of we'll further your career, we provide excellent teaching, or the also false expectations of students expecting to be spoon fed everything they'll need to know to succeed.
All university gave me was 3 years without a job to do what I wanted. For me it was doing a lot of 3d, doing a lot of partying and trying to do a lot of girls. I did just enough sound engineering to do well in my degree, but if i am honest, I and most of my course were disillusioned by the poor teaching and facilities by the end of year one. The real magic of university was no job, a loan to live (badly) on, and the time to point an enquiring mind at whatever you want, with like minded poeple.
The sooner that the second rate universities are more honest about what they provide, that is create a situation in which you have the time and freedom to teach yourself, and not on what an amazing course they offer, the better for everyone imo.
One of the other problem I think this highlights is a structural problem with the industry itself. I see it like the the film biz, for every person in the industry with a job theres a thousand waiting in line for work.
Being a relatively "young" industry is that theres little if no retirement of the current workforce. With the slew of new courses thats constantly being added the current uptake of new employees is the same whilst the supply of new workers ballooning.
Secondly its the role of employers in the whole thing..I think there is a saturation point thats already been hit, and the industry really needs to set guidelines as to whats passable as a skillset, as it seems most education places haven't a fucking clue. It makes me wonder how much interaction takes place between academic institutions and employers.Back when I was doing my chemistry degree the industry did coordinate very closely with academia as to the requirements of skill sets required. and there was no harsh wake up call from job interviews. There was procedural differences from one employer to another, but core tools and info was universal. I think the games industry needs to mature as an industry to this point. But with the apparent popularity of game development and the actual limited amount of jobs, the bar has to be raised much higher so that employers and students time aren't wasted.
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you, I've made my opinions on schooling pretty obvious in other threads - But if you went to a school because their low standards would let you creep in, how could you possibly expect a 'top of the line' education that would result in a job or a better outcome than what you have? It's not like you were tricked or anything, if they let 'anyone' in...there's probably a reason.
It's good that reality is hitting you like this because if you keep pushing forward, it'll make you a better employee. I think this slap in the face, as it were, is almost inevitable and a natural part of growing as a game developer. Learning that you aren't as good as your friends tell you, learning that it's not art - it's a product with creative merits, learning that not everyone gets to work on Halo or Doom, etc. - it makes you better and isn't something that can be taught in school.
I couldn't agree more, especially with the second paragraph.
Replies
It's good that reality is hitting you like this because if you keep pushing forward, it'll make you a better employee. I think this slap in the face, as it were, is almost inevitable and a natural part of growing as a game developer. Learning that you aren't as good as your friends tell you, learning that it's not art - it's a product with creative merits, learning that not everyone gets to work on Halo or Doom, etc. - it makes you better and isn't something that can be taught in school.
well, I did my ranting in another thread too. The blog is a point of view and I tried to be as fair as possible to both my school and myself. most people rarely admit their own faults let alone write about them. The school itself may not have had my best interests at heart but there were plenty of people in the school that did. One of the things I wanted people to get from my blog is that these people aren't in a position to really help their students the they should be helped. I hope that came across in my blog.
You admit that you made a lot of mistakes, like not knowing how the industry actually works prior to going to school - or researching your school. Fair enough, tons of people make that mistake (myself being one of them.) It's hard to know what to look for if you know absolutely nothing about the industry. But, it just seems to me like you're holding this school up to a standard that better schools would meet while admitting knowing full well that they weren't top tier before even attending class.
I'm not accusing you of this, exactly, but it seems like a lot of students bitch about not being able to get a job right out of school even though their portfolio stinks and isn't to the industry standard. LOTS of students put themselves up against other students rather than against industry pros. So, rather than just swallowing their pride, working on a new portfolio and pushing on - they blame the school for not preparing them. This isn't a business degree, you can't learn the ins and outs of the industry in a few years, be spit out and ready to produce AAA assets.
It annoys me that rather than take responsibility, people seem to point the finger of blame. Look at the comments on your blog - the people sharing your same experience, for what it's worth:
-the first poster "Jonathan"..look at his portfolio (design or art..) it's all VERY crude and miles and years away from a junior position in an established company. After years of schooling, good or bad, he 's complaining about lack of industry internships and having 'pre industry jitters' No fucking wonder. If you were the AD or design lead on a project, with any commercial ambitions, would you seriously give this guy a chance?
-mauricio, from what I can tell, made arkanoid with worse graphics and is patting himself on the back for making in on the front page of a website no one pays attention to. Again, another person putting value to someone just saying 'you're good' rather than actually looking at himself compared to a professional standard. Contrary to what he says, it IS because of his incompetence. He admits to failing, his portfolio isn't anything to talk about and - If this guy isn't American, based on what he says, but is looking for an internship here..good luck.
I see this a lot, it's a naive mentality to have. You worked really hard at school, like most people on this forum and in the industry, and tried to make the most with what you had. Your teachers praised you, as they should with positive reinforcement for hard work and, seemingly, that went to your head. You were in the top 5 of your fairly unimportant school of all time...and the only ones that that matters to is you, your team and your school. Outside of that bubble, it means nothing. The BEST game that that school produced probably isn't at a level of quality that would get anyone a job. That's not the schools fault, they actually succeeded, they've given you a basis to 'do your thing.' Like Adam has said, you would all need to scrap hat work anyway and start fresh. Basically, students need to look past the words of their friends and teachers that are more or less paid to tell them that they are good and wait for the approval of professionals that have no emotional or financial attachment to them.
Everyone has drive, everyone loves games, everyone would love to work on games and - with some encouraging words from thieves and people who don't know better - think they have what it takes. The only real problem is that you aren't good enough. As you say, your best wasn't good enough. It's not the school for suckering you, you purposely went to a school that couldn't deliver at a high standard or, what you would consider, your first choices for good reason. It's not the economy, the industry fluctuates and even in the worst of times, I know people getting jobs...are there less openings for juniors? Maybe. But that's not the economy, that's you not being at a high enough quality to be marketable.
Blah blah blah, I could go on. I actually agree with your point, I don't think schools are structured to meet industry requirements and I think there are a lot of cash grab schools out there...I just think you and A LOT of students present the argument in a bad way.
Edit> I'm just curious what kind of help would be expected from the school and teachers? You can't just make someone good enough to be in the industry...it's financially impossible to hold every students hand every step of the way and make them 'see' how to do something right. It just takes time to develop those skills. If you are marketable, the school would probably help you get a job and plaster your face all over the school because 'x student works at y company and went to school here' But, if you're not good enough, they just can't force a company to take you.
I think first of all, focusing on grades when you are in an art school is just plain silly, especially when or if your teachers don't exactly know what to look for (if they don't have experience in this field). In my opinion, you shouldn't care about your GPA, you should care about how your work compares to others who are looking to get into the industry, and those who are already in.
Its hard though because I'm sure teachers use this "i have the power to grade you" as an advantage, so it probably scares a lot of people, and it's a big concern if your teachers don't have any experience in the field you are interested, since they can only speculate about things instead of truly knowing... which sucks.
And the other main thing (you hit this a bit as well in your blog post) it comes down to how much effort you put into your work, and it matters MORE about how much effort you put in AFTER school hours and AFTER school is done. Judging by your current portfolio, you can certainly push yourself more, I'm sure you were probably one of the better ones in your class, but never measure yourself to other students, always measure yourself to those who are currently in the industry.
I wish you luck man, just keep on pushing yourself and forget about this whole school shit, whats done is done, and now all you should focus on is making your portfolio amazing, and landing your first gig!
When did I ever say that I thought that Collins was so amazing. I didn't know Collins was not as good as Full Sail or Digi-Pen.
So if you don't get into Princeton University does that mean every other school is crap and you should just stay home and teach yourself. There are a lot of people that won't be getting MIT education. But I thought school is what you put into it right?
"You admit that you made a lot of mistakes, like not knowing how the industry actually works prior to going to school - or researching your school."
Isn't that the point? Most students looking for an education in games don't know the difference between Digi-Pen and Westwood college. Majoring in game design or game art or what ever isn't like majoring in physics. It's not like Princeton U is offering game design degrees. You're unsure of which school to go to because they're all telling you that they know what they're talking about. We know Harvard is better then some community college for a business major because it's been there since the 80s.
And I have no clue who those people were that made comments on my blog. But I should at least thank them for reading it. Considering I'm a nobody in this industry.
We could show a little humility to people that made the same mistake that we once did. Of course that doesn't mean we let it slide either.
"I think first of all, focusing on grades when you are in an art school is just plain silly,..."
Well, if you come from a system that says your grades are paramount to your success, then why would you think differently?
And Collins wasn't an art school.
"In my opinion, you shouldn't care about your GPA, you should care about how your work compares to others who are looking to get into the industry, and those who are already in."
Yes, I realize that now. But there's no point in saying this after that fact. We should be saying this stuff to people who don't know.
I'd rather cure ignorance then rant about it.
Besides a few top notch schools.. there's not a lot of basis to understand the quality of the education.
I remember being in high school, learning about AI, (The Art Institutes), and was floored someone was actually offering game design degrees. I was sold. (this was 2002-3)
I did my research, but at the time there weren't a lot of people going 'man those AI degress are worthless'.
This is less and less the case nowadays, but a lot of highschool students think they're gonna have an easy in, and don't understand that the game industry is just as competitive as anything out there, and the schools you want to go to are the same.
Either way, it doesn't change the fact that those kids who were always really focused from the start will have a better chance of getting the positions they want.
There's a real laziness factor with every generation, and the games industry kind of appeals to academically lazy gamers who relate their enthusiasm with playing games, as actual capacity to do the work to make them. A severe misconception imo. I couldn't believe how many students at these schools simply did not have what it takes.
It takes dedication and skill to do anything, and games aren't really any different.
- also, just to point out, I got in the game industry fairly easy, then I was laid off a year later when the economy nose dived.
If you're looking for a job right now, you're basically shit out of luck if you're new to it all. The economic situation probably has a very strong influence on new talent coming in.
There are a lot of people not getting an MIT education, but I certainly hope that they don't fool themselves into thinking a throw away college will give them the same toolset.
Though I think you quoted me out of context...yeah, that is a point to be made. It would be great if everyone knew exactly what they were getting with game schools and that that education was actually relevant to the industry - But - you said yourself that this wasn't you first option...SO, if it's not your first option, there's obviously a reason. So, you DID know the difference or could at least see that the schools had different entry standards...you obviously made an educated choice and some amount of research into your schooling.
Though there is no princeton gaming degree..there are established schools with more reputable education that you named as your first choice. So, it's not like every option is on the same level.
I only point out the posters on your blog because, in that instance, they would be your direct peers. I'm not saying you DO know them, 'm pointing them out as an example of frustrated students that think they have what it takes but point the finger at anything but themselves. You can thank them if you want, but you're pretty much preaching to the choir.
Did I not make it clear that I take the majority of the blame? You're the one that pointed out that if you don't go to MIT then you're just not good enough to go to school and should just stay home because every other school will be below standards.
ArchangelZero made a good point in another thread.
"... I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all [of your information is] from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters."
He was clearly, since I've known him... the smartest of us all. Always top of the class.
Not everyone can be that guy... I don't think he was even particularly more aware of his capacity as a tangible trait. Kids just don't understand... it's a bit much to suggest they simply need to be more cognisant, and that's it. Somebody informing you what's up helps.
The guy still loves fart jokes btw
My experience of the whole uni edu thing is that finished high school at 17 and not having a clue what else to do with myself, i knew I wanted to go to uni, my brothers had and my parents wanted me too. A lot of people give advice on here about if you want to work in the games industry just start working on your portfolio, you don't need to go to university but I knew I didn't have the mindset for this. Anyway the course I went on was Computer Arts (so not solely games based) and from what I had heard had a great reputation so I worked hard to get the grades required to get on this course.
I didn't learn a great deal about game art, but it gave me a taster into many different disciplines from film, animation, graphic design etc and from there I knew I wanted to create 3D art as I loved it. Univeristy however did give me a love for learning and I definatly crave knowledge a lot more now (maybe thats just partly due to getting older though). Plus I've made a lot of connections through uni and good friends, maybe not currently working in the games industry but lots of them will be one day.
Would I do things differently if I went back 4 years? Yea probably. Do I regret going to uni? Not one minute of it (well maybe a few drunken nights but thats a different matter..)
Best advice I have ever been given in my years at uni was given from Nick Carver (the polycounter I heard of through family connections) and he told me "Join a forum called Polycount".
Edit: On another note University Education in Scotland is pretty much free so was a win win...
This is the gripe I have with Arts based courses\degrees in general. In England it costs the same to do a degree in computer game art as it does to do a Physics or Business degree. The latter two will clearly walk you into any job interview, yet your computer games degree isnt worth the paper its written on. Furthermore, it wont even get you an interview at a computer games company, because after three years you dont have a decent portfolio!
A years fees at a UK university roughly equates to a course at Full Sail, yet the standards are nowhere near the same.
So my point is this.
When you are paying something like £10,000 for a Game Art degree, WHY cant you learn the ins and outs of the industry and be ready to spit out AAA assets in three years?
Engineering students learn to build fcking bridges in three years, Full Sail teach their lot absolutely loads in their timeframe, so in my eyes it is inexusable to have students leaving a 3 year couse with a poorly presented irrelevant portfolio and the vague advice to 'build one in your own time'.
You say you take most of the blame, but if that was the case you wouldn't be going out of your way to make a blog that bitches about the school. The shitty school that you personally chose in comparison to good schools.
That quote is accurate, I practically said the exact same thing a few posts above this one. I was there, I know. I had to do all of the research on my own as well. What would be really great is if the industry was taken more seriously by secondary schools where career advisors could give helpful information.
Uh, no it doesn't. Not even nearly. A game art degree course at Full Sail costs $75,000.
I blame gav for all my failures in life personally.. I think that's the best way.
So I guess you define criticism as bitching, but your criticism of me isn't bitching.
And what I'm trying to say is that those tiers aren't obvious. It may be obvious for a business degrees but not game education. You only think it's obvious because you're looking at this issue after the fact.
I still think you're a cool guy Gav. We should have a drink together sometime.
I'm not going to pretend to know 'why' game degrees aren't as cut and dry as business or physics or whatever - I just know it's not. Maybe because there are a lot of outside factors that make a person valuable in our industry. You can't just look at someone's grades and know that this person will be a productive employee. Maybe it's because the 'craft' isn't as straightforward as business principles and mathematical formulas - you need to teach someone the programs, teach them about the industry AND give them time to create a portfolio that is industry worthy. It's the same for any creative field.
kaze: "The Audacity of Game Education" seems like a biased complaint to me. Man - again - you said you picked the school because they had lower entry requirements. In ANY educational situation, lower entry requirements probably means lower quality. That's common sense, you don't need to know anything about game schools to make that connection.
I think drinks are great, I just got the feeling that I'd spend a good hour explaining to you that an IPA will never taste like a stout.
Apples: I hate you. Your pal, Gav.
shit, just as well I didnt do a maths degree....
And IPA isnt as good as Guiness.....
Aha, here's a slightly OT question now you've brought up immigration......If I'm applying for a job in the US, does it have to be a relevent degree or is any degree enough to tick the box?
For instance I have a degree in sound engineering, is it any good for applying to work as a modeller in the US of A?
As for immigration, it depends, really. I'm canadian and my visa fell under nafta laws. Within the careers specified there, yes, I think you need a relevant degree. How this works for other countries though, I have no idea...and, of course, lawyers can be a great help. A part of that requirement set, though, was a piece of paper from my school. Had I of not gotten that, I would have missed out on a great opportunity. So, as much as I slam schools, that piece of paper is extremely valuable if you ever plan to work abroad.
i'm not saying you didn't work hard. but it really depends on what you put in. don't get me wrong i agree with you about the game design edu thing. one of my "teachers" on the first day for a modeling class said "i can't teach you anything...it's all about learning on your own". and at the time i should have stood up and punched the dude. i mean...there are SOOOOOOOO many things that can be taught to someone. and this was a former midway employee that was regarded as a "major asset" in the school's teaching program. "i can't teach you anything".......PFT....like you didn't learn any tricks working at a large studio? this shit's ALL ABOUT tricks. anyways.....don't know where i'm going....god damn this lagunitas.
i hear you man....BUT...at the same time. don't blog the probs. fix them, and start kickin some ass.
**@gav......that was the weirdest thing. my name is keith.....i posted something bout lagunitas while YOU posted the above post....and you said something bout ipa......then keith's bottle? wtf?
If you think my blog post is biased that's fine, but I don't agree.
Again, for the last time, I didn't say I picked the school because they had lower entry requirements. Now it sounds like you're just projecting. For all I know I could've been accepted to a school like Digi-Pen and it was all in my head. And I should have followed up and asked more questions. But (I can't believe I'm explaining this again) I thought at the time that my school of choice was equal to the others. Clearly I was wrong.
The requirements to get into Rutgers is lower then Princeton but does that mean Rutgers sucks? One of my friends from high school got into Rutgers and his grades were just as good as mine.
Kaze: You are explaining yourself over and over again but you are explaining a hypocritical logic. You DID say you picked the school because of the lower entry requirements or, rather, picked them because other schools had higher ones...same shit. What you lacked was common sense, not an education about game schools.
"Hot shit" is a generalization, I guess. I think a lot of kids fresh out of school think they are much better than they are because liars and people who don't know better tell them so.
Edit> I'm done man, I don't think I can explain myself any further. As a formal criticism to your blog post: I agree with you to an extent, I just think you need a stronger basis for your argument.
I have to explain myself over and over again because you're not getting it.
"hypocritical logic" Bullshit!
If I knew and wanted to go to a school with lower standards, that would be hypocritical.
open a few professional gameindustry artists portfolios and look a their work, notice the difference and just start working your ass off
you can start blaming shit your entire life but in the end you still won't be doing what you want to do.
Here is an email I got from the Creative Director and a prominent Game Development studio in Raleigh. I'm not going to mention his name just for privacy reasons. I think that every student should be shown this email when they start their game development program. Please disregard some random information that was meant for me personally.
_____________________________________________
My advice is simple, be passionate and love what you do. Truly love it.
The most successful people I know in any field of work, including games, do what they love at all free hours of the day. In school they would practice their craft outside of work, seek to do it day and night, thinking about it at all points in-between. They go beyond the assigned classwork and seek to challenge themselves to grow their abilities. They lust for knowledge and reach out to be mentored by people already in the industry they seek to be in.
Learn from the best to be the best. It's a simple concept, and it works. These days, it is tough to break in the industry because of the economy and all the lay-offs that have happened recently. There are a lot of experienced devs out there that are also looking for work. Things will get better, it's all a cycle, but in the meantime I recommend working with other students to make your own games. Target XBLA Indie, iPhone/iPad, Android, or Flash (but it's harder to make money on Flash games). Do it more for experience and the love of making games than trying to make money. Money could come from it, but it's not guaranteed that it will happen right away.
So what it all comes down to is your passion, how much you want it. Ask yourself some questions. How badly do you want to make games for a living? How hard will you work to grow your skillsets? What, if anything, would you ever let get in your way of achieving your dreams?
Game development is a job that is sought by many people. You have to go further on all fronts to stand out and be the one that gets hired. I see people come in for jobs straight out of school. Some show me their classwork, even their team assignment, or their portfolio they generated from their assignments. When I ask them what they have to show from their work outside of the school curriculum, most have no examples. Those students are ONLY looking for a "Cool Job". They are going to school and doing only what they are told they should do (bare minimum) to get the degree and get a job. They don't love what they do, and thus won't excel and drive innovation in their discipline at our company (or any other).
I'm glad you had fun and enjoyed coming down to the offices. Hopefully you can continue to participate in the focus tests we hold in the future.
Your post asks if the game education system will improve or change. Personally, I think its the students attitudes that need to change. Every time these rants pop up, they all expect the school to hand hold them straight into a job. That's incredibly unrealistic! And totally puts down those students who go through the curriculum and then pushes themselves even further on their own time to improve their skills. It almost sounds like you wanted to buy yourself into your dream job. So you have to understand that sometimes these posts can strike a nerve to those who bust their ass to get a job in the industry.
And despite the economy, layoffs and closures, people are still getting jobs. TONS of people have the Passion and love for this craft, but not as many have the drive. Drive is what gets you over the bumps in the road and makes you go forward despite the setbacks
I didn't realize writing was a waste of time. Who knew that putting your thoughts into words is considered bad taste or bitching.
You get a MIT education if MIT decides you're MIT material - i.e. they make sure that you have what it takes to make the most of their courses. The same applies to all other schools with admission tests.
If MIT lets everyone in (i.e. people who just aren't smart enough) then they'll have the same problem places like AI have. Doesn't necessarily mean MIT education (teachers, curriculum) are bad.
The real big downside of a no admission college is that you're stuck in classes with lots of untalented people from which you can not learn a lot and who'll drag motivation and morale down. It's a much more tough place to learn - even if the teachers are worth their money. (although you'll probably find the better teachers at colleges with higher standards - after all who wants to work with lots people who can't follow your class?)
I spent a lot of my high school time teaching myself 3d, and ended up going to a community college with an animation program, because I couldn't afford the nicer schools I got into. I was able to get through pretty much all my classes with relative ease and lack of effort; for the first year. I had a lot of fun that year!
The second year when I was a bit more serious, I started realizing how...unmotivated some of my classmates were, and how.... "confusing" my professors were. I spent most of the time angry, and eventually decided to take a "FUCK IT" approach to my schoolwork, and focused 99% of my time to personal projects and challenges. Me and the other super motivated kids in the class became really good friends, and ended up kind of cutting ourselves off from the rest of the group, which we got lightly ridiculed for, being called some-kind of secret club. We basically dedicated all our free time to doing cg, while most of the class would sit on facebook or be playing flash games. Even after we would suggest doing tutorials or making portfolio pieces, most would give us some excuse.
So after finishing the two years (associates degree) did I graduate? nope. was school helpful? not really. Have I applied for industry jobs and failed? yes. But all of this is just motivation to keep going forward. Sorry for the rant.
(I'm finishing my degree this semester <_< )
You need honesty, hard work and a company of like-minded people in order to make it in pretty much any creative industry. Any school will provide environment for this. Expecting more from schools is a waste of time. It will never happen.
I was not able to get my skills up to the level I wanted and chose to graduate earlier than I would have if bills weren't piling up.
Now I spend my days working oddjobs just enough to pay the bills, lifting weights and studying my craft like some sort of imprisoned supervillain plotting his revenge.
I think this is the right course of action.
All university gave me was 3 years without a job to do what I wanted. For me it was doing a lot of 3d, doing a lot of partying and trying to do a lot of girls. I did just enough sound engineering to do well in my degree, but if i am honest, I and most of my course were disillusioned by the poor teaching and facilities by the end of year one. The real magic of university was no job, a loan to live (badly) on, and the time to point an enquiring mind at whatever you want, with like minded poeple.
The sooner that the second rate universities are more honest about what they provide, that is create a situation in which you have the time and freedom to teach yourself, and not on what an amazing course they offer, the better for everyone imo.
Being a relatively "young" industry is that theres little if no retirement of the current workforce. With the slew of new courses thats constantly being added the current uptake of new employees is the same whilst the supply of new workers ballooning.
Secondly its the role of employers in the whole thing..I think there is a saturation point thats already been hit, and the industry really needs to set guidelines as to whats passable as a skillset, as it seems most education places haven't a fucking clue. It makes me wonder how much interaction takes place between academic institutions and employers.Back when I was doing my chemistry degree the industry did coordinate very closely with academia as to the requirements of skill sets required. and there was no harsh wake up call from job interviews. There was procedural differences from one employer to another, but core tools and info was universal. I think the games industry needs to mature as an industry to this point. But with the apparent popularity of game development and the actual limited amount of jobs, the bar has to be raised much higher so that employers and students time aren't wasted.