very, very carefully and tediously :P
i doubt a displacement map, but easily could be
why don't you just ask her yourself? you're high up enough on the awesome chain that i would think she would be kind enough to divulge a slight hint or two
if i was going to do it, i would use a plugin to insert instanced/duplicated meshes which makes it hella easy and fairly quick (see this thread for plugins/scripts in both maya and max: http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=64248)
it appears very well thought out, so that would be my guess.
I know how to do this with Mudbox and Max, all you have to do is tile the scales over the uv's of the shirt (helps to square uv's) and then bake them as a displacement over a plane with the displacement for the shirt already loaded on it in Mudbox.
Iron Bear, I don't think I understand, are you saying to get a plane with the scales already displaced (through a painted displacement map) and then that somehow transfers to the highpoly model?
This is why I think they are individual meshes.
Redish color being the pedestal-esque part of the bust... yellowish being the same pedestal mesh, but where you can see gaps revealing the base
this area also shows the scales overhanging this part, which also leads me to believe it is inserted meshes. you could attach them all and export them out as their own subtool to work within the sculpting app
Well, Zbrush 3.5 has the scales brush, so that plus a nice alpha and some brush modifier tweaks would be my guess as far as sculpting. The rendering methods are anybody's guess.
You start with the higpoly shirt you want to add scales too.
Unwrap the shirt (level 0) and square the uv's
In Max create the tileable scales and make a plane (with the uv's of the highpoly shirt as a guide,or you can use an AO bake as a guide to arrange them.
Back in mudbox load in the plane and Scales. Bake a 32-bit displacement of the Scales into the plane.
Since the scales are arranged in the proper area for the highpoly shirt's uv's when you load them in as a displacement layer, they will fit perfectly.
I would be tempted to use TexTools UV/3D swap. Then skinwrap the flattened scales to the flattened 3D object and warp it back into a solid 3D object.
I think there's a tutorial somewhere about a old lady wearing a sweater where each and every loop of the sweater was a 3D object, the guy used the same technique but used something different to convert it from flat to 3D.
how about using advance painter?
or wait for max 2011
there are many ways but eventually, i doubt that you will get the same nice and evenly distributed result if you don't do some tedious manual tweaking.
I would be tempted to use TexTools UV/3D swap. Then skinwrap the flattened scales to the flattened 3D object and warp it back into a solid 3D object.
I think there's a tutorial somewhere about a old lady wearing a sweater where each and every loop of the sweater was a 3D object, the guy used the same technique but used something different to convert it from flat to 3D.
Conform modifiers to an object he warped back to the proper shape?
how about using advance painter?
or wait for max 2011
there are many ways but eventually, i doubt that you will get the same nice and evenly distributed result if you don't do some tedious manual tweaking.
Soulburns Object painter would work a lot better than advanced painter. I don't mean to bash on a script that is above what I can put together but Neil did such an amazing job I can't go back to advance painter. His spline painter script put advance painter to shame.
I hope you didn't count the scales as you you doing it:) then get to 8000 then sneeze and have to start again
very nicely done BTW
I would try and flatten the mesh to the uv layout then skinwrap the flat scales to the flattened mesh it and morph it back in to 3d.
Not sure if that would work.
I believe.. although I haven't tried it myself... that in ZBrush if you have UV'ed your base mesh you can project a texture onto the mesh as alpha/mask.
Using the deformation tools you should then be able to manipulate the geometry to what you want.
I do remember seeing a video of the workflow but I've completely forgot where I saw it...
Thats the funny thing about all these shortcuts ... they work very well for strict patterns, but for something like those scales I think she took the best route - raw power. I tested the displacement/UV thing in mud ... and while it does look very accurate, it would never ever beat the quality of the hand-placed feathers on that Cap, following the curves of the anatomy just right. Plus, I think the very subtle happy accidents and variations created by the hand placement are great.
I wrote a similar script to the SlideKnit one, for Maya. It's pretty handy for stuff like this. Personally I think doing it by hand is quite a waste of time if you have scripts like this - you can simply model a basic shape, use Array to get everything aligned and duplicated nicely, then wrap it down to the final shape. Way, way faster than doing it by hand, and the result will be 99% the same.
I don't really think Pior is right here that doing it by hand is the "best way" for this thing. It's just a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
Sure for more unique or less repetitive stuff you can do it by hand to get total control, but for something regular and generic like this, by hand just seems like the tiresome route.
I'm with pior. I've never been able to get good results using the mask / push method. At least not for something that needs to be nice and crisp AND overlap like this. Good ol' fashioned modeling seems to get the best results for me, either using the duplicate along path workflow or just placing it all be hand and keeping plenty of coffee on hand.
Well yeah Mop I did try the 'smart' technique : laying down nice overlapping scales on a square, extracting 16bit depth using MRGBZGrabber, applying that as displacement on nice relaxed UVs ... but for this one scenario, even with the added controls of the editable UV mapping ... it just didnt look that good. Technically perfect, but lacking the organic flow of the OP.
ive tried many methods of doing this with masks or transfering displacements or wahtever, but it always ends up looking screwed up. WEll it works great fro props and stuff, mostly non-hero assets, but for something like this you gotta just model it.
For this i would have extracted curves from the edge loops, then just duplicate along path. And i suppose you could use a surface array, but doing it loop by loop would most likely yield the best control.
So I am still messing with the slide tools and The painter plug ins. My question now, is if I were to do it by hand like Ashley did, Do you think she used some sort of snap? so the scale conformed to the surface? So she could just shift+Drag the scales into place?
My question now, is if I were to do it by hand like Ashley did, Do you think she used some sort of snap? so the scale conformed to the surface? So she could just shift+Drag the scales into place?
either that or she has way too much time on her hands :P something like the maya - 'make live' function on the parent surface should do the trick.
If I did it one by one like she did and was in Maya not using 3rd party scripts/plugs, I would use a fairly evenly distributed medium-high res mesh and use Live as a starting point for each scale. Snap to the verts and edges once I modified the pivot of the original scale to the best location to yeild the best end result, even if that meant the scale intersected with the underlying mesh (a good thing anyway if you're going to get it printed, which this was). Once snapped, and a good few of them are placed, I would go back and manually tweak each one to be right where I wanted it. Once a good amount of them are placed, you could probably start selecting one or two rows at a time, duplicate them up, and then go back and tweak each one because they'll snap pretty quick with Live and using an Object Space movement, you could probably slide them around pretty quick as well... rotational patterns wouldn't hold, but yeah..... and I'm guessing you're using Max since you said "shift-drag" ?
Worthless wall of text if that's the case.
Would still take forever. Can't get over the fact that she did it 1 by 1. Best result, but still... the time in that.... she's a master of patience.
Well yeah Mop I did try the 'smart' technique : laying down nice overlapping scales on a square, extracting 16bit depth using MRGBZGrabber, applying that as displacement on nice relaxed UVs ... but for this one scenario, even with the added controls of the editable UV mapping ... it just didnt look that good. Technically perfect, but lacking the organic flow of the OP.
Just my thoughts!
Pior, I wasn't talking about ZBrush workflows, I wouldn't use ZBrush for something like this because it would be so many polys to get something looking "solid" and not "soft"... I'm talking about using proper instanced geometry in your 3d app and deforming it as Bryan Cavett's links showed. Way faster and still nice and editable, and super-sharp. Nice thing about that method is you can still tweak the individual meshes by hand afterwards if you want some random bits or uniqueness in your final result.
Replies
i doubt a displacement map, but easily could be
why don't you just ask her yourself? you're high up enough on the awesome chain that i would think she would be kind enough to divulge a slight hint or two
if i was going to do it, i would use a plugin to insert instanced/duplicated meshes which makes it hella easy and fairly quick (see this thread for plugins/scripts in both maya and max: http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=64248)
it appears very well thought out, so that would be my guess.
Redish color being the pedestal-esque part of the bust... yellowish being the same pedestal mesh, but where you can see gaps revealing the base
this area also shows the scales overhanging this part, which also leads me to believe it is inserted meshes. you could attach them all and export them out as their own subtool to work within the sculpting app
Plugin Thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=25&t=678648
Plugin Site:
http://slidelondon.com/
Examples:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5103103&postcount=89
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5395022&postcount=56
damn.... by hand sucks ass hole. and here you were bitchin' about placing individual rivets on your airplanes :P
Sorry, I didn't reply to you earlier Josh, I've been really busy!
You start with the higpoly shirt you want to add scales too.
Unwrap the shirt (level 0) and square the uv's
In Max create the tileable scales and make a plane (with the uv's of the highpoly shirt as a guide,or you can use an AO bake as a guide to arrange them.
Back in mudbox load in the plane and Scales. Bake a 32-bit displacement of the Scales into the plane.
Since the scales are arranged in the proper area for the highpoly shirt's uv's when you load them in as a displacement layer, they will fit perfectly.
Hope that explains it!
edit: corrected AO part.
I think there's a tutorial somewhere about a old lady wearing a sweater where each and every loop of the sweater was a 3D object, the guy used the same technique but used something different to convert it from flat to 3D.
or wait for max 2011
there are many ways but eventually, i doubt that you will get the same nice and evenly distributed result if you don't do some tedious manual tweaking.
Conform modifiers to an object he warped back to the proper shape?
I vaguely remember that too.
very nicely done BTW
I would try and flatten the mesh to the uv layout then skinwrap the flat scales to the flattened mesh it and morph it back in to 3d.
Not sure if that would work.
theoretical images for showing
first you displace for shape, and second for overlaps
This might help you understand how. At 4:18
Using the deformation tools you should then be able to manipulate the geometry to what you want.
I do remember seeing a video of the workflow but I've completely forgot where I saw it...
Congrats!
I don't really think Pior is right here that doing it by hand is the "best way" for this thing. It's just a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
Sure for more unique or less repetitive stuff you can do it by hand to get total control, but for something regular and generic like this, by hand just seems like the tiresome route.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Digital_Sculpting
MoP, are you gonna make a scripts page on your site? And maybe release this melscript? Would be handy!
The original thread when I released that script is here: http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?p=852366&posted=1
Gav
Just my thoughts!
For this i would have extracted curves from the edge loops, then just duplicate along path. And i suppose you could use a surface array, but doing it loop by loop would most likely yield the best control.
either that or she has way too much time on her hands :P something like the maya - 'make live' function on the parent surface should do the trick.
Worthless wall of text if that's the case.
Would still take forever. Can't get over the fact that she did it 1 by 1. Best result, but still... the time in that.... she's a master of patience.
Pior, I wasn't talking about ZBrush workflows, I wouldn't use ZBrush for something like this because it would be so many polys to get something looking "solid" and not "soft"... I'm talking about using proper instanced geometry in your 3d app and deforming it as Bryan Cavett's links showed. Way faster and still nice and editable, and super-sharp. Nice thing about that method is you can still tweak the individual meshes by hand afterwards if you want some random bits or uniqueness in your final result.