Something about for profit schools
polycounter lvl 19
Hmmm this brings back memories. I read this today, it seems there are a lot of for profit schools screwing everyone in every industry they can. Also because the economy is so bad people are finally starting to talk about how bs many universities and schools are.
http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109081/in-hard-times-lured-into-trade-school-and-debt
After I read this it reminded me of how I also heard the same sales pitch. I hope this informs people to be careful when they decide to get in debt with the promise of getting a better job. Just because you get a degree it doesn't mean you'll get a decent paying job or the program you paid for is worth anything.
Good luck.
http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109081/in-hard-times-lured-into-trade-school-and-debt
After I read this it reminded me of how I also heard the same sales pitch. I hope this informs people to be careful when they decide to get in debt with the promise of getting a better job. Just because you get a degree it doesn't mean you'll get a decent paying job or the program you paid for is worth anything.
Good luck.
Replies
Meanwhile, as much as i'd like to focus on building portfolio pieces to broaden my work, i'm spending most of my week doing up story boards, writing papers on sociology, driving half an hour to school and back. The school also seems out of touch with what the industry is looking for, a lot of the education has been counter productive, focusing largely on small tri counts and small texture sizes.
It's very frustrating. It feels as though the biggest wall between me and producing the work required for getting a job is the school that I had thought would help, the one I paid lots of money for and still am. Also of note is the job placement they talked so highly of when i was introduced to the school. I figured, hey if i do well here, i'll have a job. This simply isn't the case, in fact they really pile on how much the weight is on us to get out there and get a job at the tail end of the education. I'm finding it very hard these days to justify the large tuition.
That said, the head start they gave me was invaluable, getting started on this path was huge to be where i am now. I wish i could just give 'em the money that would have gone towards the required classes and get my degree. I've come this far, but the school really doesn't offer me anything at this point, I want to get out so i can put this behind me and focus on doing game art.
I should also say that I really enjoyed nearly all of my art related instructors and everyone involved in the game art program at my school. The problem isn't with the faculty, it's the system set in place by whoever runs these very lucrative institutions who pry on aspiring creatives. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.
If any aspiring game artists are reading this who are considering school, it's not a bad choice. Just find a school that isn't bloated with courses you aren't interested in. Spending a good chunk of change for a reputable, accelerated course i think is a brilliant idea.
I spent so many long hours at night... after class.. until 3-4 in the morning on projects wishing to be in the industry working... because no matter how involved the project was at night I could go home and relax. I love the work and I love doing it, but from what I've seen the last few months landing that initial job for experience is honest to god "luck." I'm not bashing anyone because most of them have amazing portfolios, I would just like to see a flawless GPA and long hours of hard work count for experience in the industry.
I'm guessing that this has to do with getting you a Visa if it was for the Ubi's in Canada. I just went through getting one and, trust me, it's a bitch to obtain. Basically, they can't look at you if you don't have relevant experience as their lawyers need to be able to prove you qualify as a graphic designer under the NAFTA agreement. Same goes with freelancing, it's really difficult to 'prove' that experience. You know it's real experience, I know it's real experience, to certain extent the lawyers know it's experience, but the DHS doesn't. It's all about rules and if you can't solidly fit under those rules, you're shit out of luck. Until you get 3 years experience, of course.
I had almost 4 years studio experience and a one year diploma which was enough. But my freelancing experience, a year that I basically regard as the most important decision of my career, is more or less void since it's so hard to 'prove' that...you know?
Unless your school is a degree...not sure if it is...mine wasn't...you need to pair that schooling up with 3 years minimum work experience. So, it still counts as it's 'something' but if it isn't a full on degree, you need work experience to back it up as well.
They really don't tell you this in school. I've bitched PLENTY about schooling and how this industry's education system needs a serious facelift..so..whatever. But, yeah,
Edit> To correct myself, you're not necessarily SOL - but you'd have to be, like, good enough for immigration lawyers to pull a lot of strings for you.
So make sure you do your research, make sure it's a credible course, and teaches everything you'll need to know.
Also, I'm sure the school I went to is much better now, but it's still too little for too much.
Maybe up north it is but down south where I live you can double that for a decent university.
But as can be seen in the current lifestyle its all about profit and greed for $'s so on that note im going to need all your SSN's and banking details for my Nigerian banker friend hes promising big returns if we help him move his monies...
A big thing is following rules. DHS doesn't care if you are a phenomenal artist, if you can't prove that you meet all of the restrictions - or make it difficult for hem to understand that you do - it's pointless.
Anyways, yeah, schools can be lame - but even mine helped me out and it's pretty low key. It's fucking stupid, but people who call the big shots (not studio heads or art directors, they couldn't care less about school..but people involved in immigration and such) want to see that piece of paper. No matter how shitty thee school is, they don't know or care, it's just a piece to show you follow the rules.
That being said, a lot of people will say 'you could have researched' or 'you get what you put in' and, to a certain degree, that's true....but when I was looking to go to school I had NO idea where to begin. I bought into the sales pitch because i was just mesmerized and didn't know any better. At the time, I didn't even know what a polycount was...or what roles actually went into games or film...so how would i be able to accurately pick a good spot? It's like looking up how to spell a word in a dictionary. To me, at that time, one school looked just as plausible as the others. About getting back what you put in, that's only true for so long. Sure, you work harder - get more out of it get better grades and most likely get a job. That's the way this industry goes - you bust your ass, you will get a job eventually. But you can only work for so long with broken tools and then it just turns into personal work - which pretty much has nothing to do with the school itself. Thinking back on all the quirky things that I was taught that was just plain wrong...hah...but you don't really figure that out until long after the fact.
sounds like we are in the educational inflation -_-
i dont know how poor the school program is, but this is what my teacher said
( he is great animation teacher)
once he said that about 10-15 years ago industry/prospective employer come to school
and ask this to design student :
"who love 3d?"
only one person raise a hand. ( remember this is like early 90 ish)
then they offer him a job
just like that ...
now? i think it would be much much harder.
instead making their student to fight for the same job, i think it is time for school to be step ahead. how to make their art "sell", not just "accepted" .
not repeating the same art formula. even tho some basic might work, but should teach them how to create their own formula.
Full Sail presents you with opportunity, it's up to you to actually use the opportunity. Everyone working there has industry experience and it's a huge networking experience while learning the tools. There are a lot of people who walk into that school expecting everything to be handed to them and I watched a lot of people fail because of it. Take every opportunity to ask questions, you're paying them to be there so you'd better be getting your moneys worth for a school that's as expensive as that.
Pretty much everyone I've talked to said the first year after graduations rough, that just how it goes in general unless you're VERY well connected, which is why they push it so hard. I only recently got my first Contract gig, I'm hoping more stuff will pan out and I'll land something full time.
tl;dr
Graduated from Full Sail, You're paying for an experience with schools like these. Get the most out of it otherwise, you're wasting your time and money.
First contract wasn't too long ago, hire me. (lol)
(I kept my move / job change sort of low key :P )
Might as well chime in here after being absent for a long time. These threads come and go.
I went to (victimized by?) one of these schools in Toronto, Canada. The tuition was astronomical. However, I could afford it, to a point. As in I had the money and that is what I spent it on.
School, good or bad is about use of time. And after pissing away a couple years of Engineering and partying I decided to actually sit down and use my time, even though the school was horrible. Taking an art/vg related course at that shit school opened my eyes to the dedication it takes to develop my own talent. And made me pay attention to multiple facets of the industry. I also stumbled upon these forums during my time there (no thanks to the school). And these forums are better than much of the education out there imo. I've learned more from these forums than most of my "industry" teachers.
At the end of it, I learned more from the time I spent on my own than the school itself. But without the kick in my own ass from myself after paying for that time and effort I would be in a lot worse situation.
I'm working in the industry now, even if it's for a publishing company doing PR and Marketing (no where near art). I feel that while the school might have wasted my money, but I didn't waste my time. And I don't plan on wasting my time in the future.
My art is no where near the talent I've seen on these forums, and I intend on spending much more time developing my own talent and skills. I've barely scratched the surface. But to bring this around to the post I quoted, it seems from the words I've heard and the people I've talked to in the industry, it is less about the piece of paper education than it is about raw talent and ability and presentation (and surprisingly, personality) of the person applying for the job.
There's definitely jobs out there. In my mind, it's up to the student to seize the day (to harp a cliche). Regardless of whether they are in a shit school, or on a pipeline/feeder to work at Valve.
Often times I think students put too much faith in ANY school they go to to somehow automatically get them a job when they are done.
I completely agree. I wholeheartedly feel it is up to the student to make what they want from the experience. I never expect anything to be hand fed and I think it is ridiculous the number of people that get a job solely based on the fact they know the owner/ceo... head lead... etc.etc. I'm not directing this at anyone in the industry, I have many friends in the industry and I would suggest a buddy that needed a job.. but only because they were qualified to do said job. It is a rarity in this industry that someone not qualified gets a job because they know someone or have years logged in the field, but I'm sure it still happens. I'm just agreeing with those in this thread that the experience of juggling projects at a well accredited school should be looked upon as some form of experience (granted the person has a great portfolio and was very successful at said school).
Mock up situation:
-2 candidates for a job.
-very,very similar portfolios
- 1 candidate is a recent graduate the other has been in the game industry for 3 or so years (somewhat equal to the time the other was in an institution)
Say for the instance of this mock up the one that worked in the industry didn't have a degree as well... was just hired by luck or connection or w/e for his first job.
I know that 80% or more of getting the job is the interview and personality but that person with the 3 years experience definitely has an edge. All I'm saying is that a degree should at least count as a bit of experience.
But is a rough time for everyone... and I know that the months after graduation are usually the roughest.
I think the problem comes from schools pushing the trade school thing. Especially for video game art. 3d modeling/game art is definitely something that you need to 90% self teach. Art school should be for learning other skills than just how to execute a model or texture with basic proficiency.
Also, don't think that all schools are raking in the cash. Its extremely expensive to run a college and at many private schools the tuition doesn't cover operating expenses.
So in your mock up scenerio you have a student just coming out of school versus someone with 3 years industry experience,i would say off course the 3 year vet has the edge. On the surface of your scenerio they seem like well balanced canidates but i think you miss the important aspect of experience.
Theres alot of other factors involved that employers had to take into account when hiring someone. Like for instance..
-how well with a new artist fresh out of school handle the pressures of working in a production cycle?
- Who works faster?
- how much additional training would a green artist need?
- How quickly can you jump into a project and contribute equally as the other artists?
- Who would you trust more if you needed a change to an asset on the fly?
- how well can you work in a team?
- How techincally adept are you besides the art aspect?
Theres alot of other factors that you have to take into account when hiring someone,so even if in terms of ability the stwo artists look equal,experience matters.
J0420 - you make sense when you talk of what a company is looking for but I dont think its possible to compare someone with 3 years industry experience to someone with 3 years university. Im pretty much ageeing with you here but heres my experience of the situation.
You spend your time working your butt off at university which costs you loads of cash and you end up teaching yourself. End of the 3 years you have a load of projects which are mostly unrelated to the job you want to get because thats what universitys do, they give you modular projects, a taste of each artistic discipline and dont help you to specialise. You then need to spend another year or 2 just learning the skills and getting yourself and your portfolio out there enough to possibly get a job in the industry if you are lucky. You then need to be productive in that job for at least another 2 years before you are at the same level as that industry vet with 3 years experience.
So in my estimation most determined game artists that attend a school/uni will spend a minimum 6 years trying to get to the point where they actually meet the requirements of even the lowest game art job - 2 years industry experience.
That being said, im sure a degree would help secure the paperwork.Might be worth trying to get in touch with someone else at Ubi.
I understand what you are saying, and again I agree with you as well. But that's not to say that the person in college was not just as productive or challenged... it is just never viewed that way. In college I was under far more pressure than anything I've had to deal with in the industry so far... granted that experience is small and I know that build times are crazy, but that's not to say that person didn't experience near similar production pressures. Atleast in visual effects, the demand to learn new software and be able to utilize it instantly was extremely demanding.
As far as the "team player/experience working with a group" situation is concerned... again I agree. But, I have to say nearly all of my final years in schooling were in large scale industry related projects with groups of people just for that very instant. I made sure to surround myself with peers from the same field to make certain I knew I could handle the situations. Honestly more programs should focus on large scale group mods or projects in this industry and other computer graphics related fields. My best friend and 4 year roommate through college and I pushed for our school to better collaborate, and it definitely helped. We were a huge driving factor in trying to better unite visual effects and game design by pushing large group, multi-talented collaboration. Maybe this is something that needs to change in the institutions... in order to ensure that education time is looked upon as some small form of industry experience.
As far as school counting for experience, its hard for whoever is hiring to gauge a school's training training as experience since every school varies.
I think you'll be alright Crazyfingers its a minor set back, but it does sting... soon I'll be join you too.
I'll add my two cents to the original question...
I hear this awhile ago, and wish I would have listened to this advice at the time....
"If you see a commercial for a school, don't go there"
The issue with experience still arises even at top notch academies, but the original post about scamming is definitely geared more towards these start up tech schools. I was lucky enough to shy away from those type schools and get into a well established institution... though it cost an arm and a leg. I guess people just become frustrated when hard work becomes lumped together as a general stereotype for graduating students.
I have not seen such a poisonus job market for newly graduated artists. The schools which offer "game development" educations do not provide the frame work for new grads to find work right after school. I think it will be a long and hard slog for artist looking to break into this industry.
In my experience artists who have some kind of formal art training in the fundamentals of art find it much easier to change art style and to create a wider range of styles of art. I have seen many artists held back in their careers because of this. Especially those who want to stick to the creative side of game art and not become technical specialists.
Yeah I agree.. I have no doubt the schooling counts for something in the long run. I love my degree and I am 100% certain I am a better artist because of the traditional art background and history I received. Getting into the industry is by far the hardest step.
Gav you should come out and meet a bunch of the metrowest kids.
We'll have a little drinkfest at any one (or all) of the bars that Maynard has to offer:)
B
So now I have massive debt from school, and they did nothing to help me get a job.
I just wanted in the Industry so bad that I worked my ass off for it every day.
They had a "career services" department that is supposed to help you find a job. Basically all they did was email me ever 5 weeks or so with jobs they found on monster.com for game programmers. Unfortunately, my degree was for Art, not programming. But...
What really made me mad is that once I got a job (on my own, without help from them) they started calling and harassing me, wanting me to sign a waiver saying that I work here and they helped me get a job here. I refused, so they sent it to my HR department, and they were all willy nilly about signing it and sending it back.
So now on their website, they can proudly display the fact that graduates from their school now work at such studios as "bla bla, bla bla bla, and the studio I worked for"
Really, really annoying.
I know you probably cant say much. But I would love to know how that played out. Why the hell would your HR department even care what this school said? Was there a lawsuit implied? Further, did you get to give your part of the story to your HR department before being forced to sign such a document? Was it also implied, "sign, or pack?"
Something seems very below the legal line of how this was handled.
that sucks fingers, was that ubisoft montreal/toronto? Here's what I understand of the situation:
If you are a new canadian grad who resides in canada, there are tax credits the companies can apply for to help fund your salary. My brother who just started an iphone dev company says for devs, it's to the tune of 30k a year. That's pretty much half the salary. He has to turn away experienced people who are qualified because the company simply can't afford to hire that guy because his salary wouldn't be subsidized.
The flip side from your angle is that there could be other incentives that cover experienced canadian residents/citizens or workers, and sadly it just wasn't a fit this time. There's a number of credits and incentives here in canada, and depending on when you apply to a company and which programs they apply to the government for funds, your being hired will depend greatly on that.
I'm going to speculate that depending on where and when they get the money from for a hiring pool, the conditions of the prospective hires (being experienced x amount or x qualifications) need to be met if it's government money being used. Keep trying if they showed interest, maybe try for another position a little later, maybe salary funds from another program will be available to pay you from.
It's a shitty question of timing, either the stars align or they don't.
As for why they don't pool those funds... I think they're trying to keep the books tidy. A big tv animation studio closed possibly because of mismanaged grant/credit money, and when you start cross contaminating your pools, to plug leaks... the whole works are bound to blow up eventually.
I feel that a lot of the technical skills necessary to working in the industry can easily be learned over the internet or by attending short courses that are specifically suited to your needs. There's no point taking a 3 year course in 'computer arts' or some other nebulous title, when you can get a crash course in the necessary fundamentals for the job by doing research online and teaching yourself in just a couple of months. Of course, this doesn't mean you will be producing great art straight away - it's the fundamental skills that let a lot of candidates down rather than technical proficiency - but at least you'll be learning things that are directly relevant to the career you are aiming for. Plus, a lot of these computer game related art courses really don't spend a lot of time teaching the basics of art so they are flawed in that respect too.
So, if the only reason for attending one of these schools is that it might help you get a visa down the road - and even this doesn't seem to be guaranteed - then if it were my choice I would just teach myself and take short courses through Gnomon etc that were actually of use.
I should note some of the kids at my school did very well at GDC, there were certainly a lot of studios looking for realistic looking stuff and i think my school as a whole made a great impression for student work, some are doing art tests as we speak. Profit schools may not be perfect but they do create success stories.
On a side note, there's really no point to lingering on past decisions, good or bad, by all means learn from them, but dwelling on them wont help you with the future. At GDC, an incredibly nice lady approached me while i was in line for a free beer and we talked briefly and then she offered me a wristband from her company, they did that EVE MMO. She smiled and walked away and looking down at the wristband i read, "harden the f*ck up" on it. I'm wearing it right now.
Anyway, I'm betting a lot of my future time on the starcraft II mod community. I think it'll be a return to the old days, with passionate modders coming from the community to create their own successful IPs driven by a love of games and not just a paycheck, I'm really looking forward to this kind of community that's been dormant for so long, kinda missed the boat on the glory days. The well rounded education I got at school should help tremendously since i'll probably be animating, modeling, texturing, and mostly doing a lot of scripting (the galaxy editor should be fairly easy to use, thank god). I'm really looking forward to it! Just gotta find a way to make it work while juggling a full-time school schedule :P
Edit: I think as students we have the unique opportunity to really devote some time to doing what we're passionate about, obviously we need to keep our portfolios strong, but from what I'm seeing of the Galaxy editor and blizzards pay incentive, we might see quite a few kids in schools doing their own mods and actually making a living off of it. Just look at how Steam has exploded as well as the iphone with its apps. There's a growing casual market out there, it's going to be a massive player in game development. I don't think we have to set our sites dead center on large faceless companies looking for a cog in their art machine, though those certainly pay the bills too
If it is not a 4 year bachelor it probably wont help you. Last time i was laid off i looked for work in the UK first and they have a points system which determines how easy it is for you to get a visa and an Art Institute degree = a big fat zero. Even with my 10 years of graphic work experience it still was not enough. I imagine that if you are trying to get into the U.S or Canada without a 4 year degree its much tougher.
I most certainly agree that 90% of these courses are useless money traps, I attended the Art Insitute of Houston in 1999 and the school was a joke,the education it offered did in no way prepare you to land a job afterwards. We even had a teacher taking a class which she taught an hour later,it was pathetic. No surprise the lawsuit that was filed against the school was uscessful.
That school was especially terrible. I only had 1 student loan for housing at 8k but I couldn't believe the cost of the school for 2 years, let alone 4. I thought of the experience as paying someone money to give me time to figure out what I wanted to do with my life before I got sucked into a job or lifestyle I had no interest in.
I feel art school are different because it is up to the student to put in the effort and learn regardless if the faculty knows what they are talking about. I had to do that, I learned a lot and helped a lot of students learn. It was an uphill battle and it did leave me kind of jaded. I did make a lot of friends so I did get a lot out of going to school. All a school can really do is provide guidance. The reality though is a lot of these art schools provide the wrong direction and are also just trying to rack in the cash. Doing research on a school and getting information about the faculty can be pretty hard, especially if you don't know what to look for. You live an learn.
About the subject at hand: I've already said my peace on this a few times, so I wont rant. But essentially most schools don't give two shits about the students, they just want money like most every other business.
Read up on the school before blowing tens of thousands of $. Find out:
Are they accredited?
Do the credits transfer (not just between them and others in their chain)?
What is the quality of work produced by fresh graduates or those still in the program?
How much of the curriculum is relavent to your field?
Are their 'horror stories' for that school posted online?
Do they have and use up to date hardware/software?
What are the qualifications of the majors primary teachers, and are they still working in the field? If not, how long have they been absent from the industry?
Does the school have relavent jobs in the area for after you graduate?
Do they have a library that contains dvds and other training material?