Odd 3DSMax Biped Issue

Mezz

Ok, I've noticed this problem before, but I've never had so much trouble with this issue as I've had with this latest animation I was trying.

It's easier if I show a picture than explain it myself:


Note the torso being completely offset so that it's moved forward and overlapping the pelvis. This is my issue... when I animate with the biped, it has a way of getting all twisted up the further I get into the posing in an animation, notably in the pelvis to torso area. At the start of the animation, the biped is lined up properly... but after I rotate this and that a few times, the above image happens.

Basically, I'd love someone to let me know if this happens to them, if there's something that can be done to fix it, and if so, what.
I'm worried this pretty much will ruin the animation I did due to it looking so off by the end. (A final pose cannot look natural with one's stomach where one's balls should be.)

Thanks so much for any help you guys can give!!

StephenVyas

hmm, never seen this before.

What happens when

1-you save out a .bip file of the animation
2-trash the biped character
3-create a new biped character
4-reload the bip.

Could this have happened because of adjust pivots for either the lower spine bone, or pelvis?

Are subanims on?

Just some of the things that came to mind when looking at it.

* Also, please post the schematic view of the skeleton hierarchy. It's possible that some bones accidently got parented in the wrong place along the way.

Titus S

Did you scale any of those pieces at any time? You might have to reset the X Form.

Mark Dygert

Titus S wrote: »

Did you scale any of those pieces at any time? You might have to reset the X Form.

You can only scale a biped in figure mode (unless you apply a sub-anim controller). Reset X form would be a very unwise thing to do. At best it would realign that pieces local pivot to the world severally hosing any attempt at animation. At worst it would completely corrupt the biped taking any animation along with it.

Have you tinkered with the pivots outside of figure mode?
Higherarch tab > Pivot > Affect Pivot Only is a very bad way to move biped pieces around. Only move them around while in figure mode.

Have you been animating using the local pivot or set to world?
It looks like you're set to world, you should be using local.

Have you been using the biped workbench or the standard curve editor?

Have you been using in place mode or adjusting Rubber band mode?

Are you animating with biped or 3dsmax layers?

Set to Quaternion or Euler? How about planted keys?

Link the COM to anything?

Does this happen every time you animate a biped or just this one?


Suggestions:
- Toggle the biped in and out of figure mode. If the spine says down in the crotch turn on figure mode and reposition it.
- Any chance you can post the file so we can take a look at it?

Titus S

Vig wrote: »

You can only scale a biped in figure mode (unless you apply a sub-anim controller). Reset X form would be a very unwise thing to do. At best it would realign that pieces local pivot to the world severally hosing any attempt at animation. At worst it would completely corrupt the biped taking any animation along with it.

Have you tinkered with the pivots outside of figure mode?
Higherarch tab > Pivot > Affect Pivot Only is a very bad way to move biped pieces around. Only move them around while in figure mode.

Have you been animating using the local pivot or set to world?
It looks like you're set to world, you should be using local.

Have you been using the biped workbench or the standard curve editor?

Have you been using in place mode or adjusting Rubber band mode?

Are you animating with biped or 3dsmax layers?

Set to Quaternion or Euler? How about planted keys?

Link the COM to anything?

Does this happen every time you animate a biped or just this one?


Suggestions:
- Toggle the biped in and out of figure mode. If the spine says down in the crotch turn on figure mode and reposition it.
- Any chance you can post the file so we can take a look at it?

Ah, didn't think it would screw it up O_O Sorry... When I animated my robot it did the same thing where it would compress all retardedly. I fixed it with the X form, so I thought it was the same principle xD

Mezz

Ok too much in there to answer easily... I'll just go point by point :P

Vig wrote: »

You can only scale a biped in figure mode (unless you apply a sub-anim controller). Reset X form would be a very unwise thing to do. At best it would realign that pieces local pivot to the world severally hosing any attempt at animation. At worst it would completely corrupt the biped taking any animation along with it.

Have you tinkered with the pivots outside of figure mode?
Higherarch tab > Pivot > Affect Pivot Only is a very bad way to move biped pieces around. Only move them around while in figure mode. -No, I haven't done this.

Have you been animating using the local pivot or set to world?
It looks like you're set to world, you should be using local. -Yes, it's set to world... I didn't realize this would be a problem, but I'll remember to use local from now on.

Have you been using the biped workbench or the standard curve editor? -So far, I haven't really used either... I've only worked on this anim for a few hours, and in that time all I did was block in the key poses as I went through it. It was as each key pose progressed that the spine got more and more messed up.

Have you been using in place mode or adjusting Rubber band mode? Uh, not sure what this is... so I'm gonna say no, I haven't

Are you animating with biped or 3dsmax layers? -With the biped.

Set to Quaternion or Euler? How about planted keys? -Not sure what those first two things are... but yes, I've been setting planted keys for the feet, and some for the hands, as I went.

Link the COM to anything? -I don't believe so.

Does this happen every time you animate a biped or just this one? -I seem to notice this happen every time I animate with a biped. Because of all the turning in this one, it just got more messed up than ever and I couldn't just pose around it.


Suggestions:
- Toggle the biped in and out of figure mode. If the spine says down in the crotch turn on figure mode and reposition it. -I'll definately give this a try.
- Any chance you can post the file so we can take a look at it? -Uhh... lemme see if this is an easy fix with going into figure mode first, and then I might post the file. (It's still so rough, it doesn't want to be shown... lol)

StephenVyas - I'll give that a try as well, thanks!


Ok, I'll try to work this out with some of the suggestion posted here... I will let you know how it goes :P

cryrid

Set to Quaternion or Euler? How about planted keys? -Not sure what those first two things are... but yes, I've been setting planted keys for the feet, and some for the hands, as I went.

http://www.guerrillacg.org/home/3d-rigging/the-rotation-problem
http://www.guerrillacg.org/home/3d-rigging/euler-rotations-explained
always a good watch for animators and riggers

Mark Dygert

Have you been animating using the local pivot or set to world?
It looks like you're set to world, you should be using local. -Yes, it's set to world... I didn't realize this would be a problem, but I'll remember to use local from now on.

I think this is your problem. All rotation even world rotation is translated to local rotation.

The more your biped moves out of alignment with the world the worse that problem will get. It is also easier to position the pieces based on their local rotation.

For example -Y Local on bicep will always rise the arm regardless of how its facing in the scene. VS having to use a combo of XYZ and a few attempts to get it into position based on the world rotation.

Are you animating with biped or 3dsmax layers? -With the biped.

Biped has its own unique layer manager, which can can be useful for some simple changes but for complex changes it lead to a lot of fighting with lower layers. Using 3dsmax animation layers on a biped is suicide. Be sure to stick to biped layers if you start using them.

Titus S wrote:

Ah, didn't think it would screw it up O_O Sorry... When I animated my robot it did the same thing where it would compress all retardedly. I fixed it with the X form, so I thought it was the same principle xD

Well reset xform does a few things one of them was what you needed, the rest will cause all kinds of problems like reorient the pivot to the world. Which might not be noticable if the pivot was roughly aligned to the world.

The object you where rotating had been scaled in object space at some point. So when you rotate it locally it was interpreting the scale. To fix it you need to reset just the scale (Hierarchy Tab > Reset Transform > Reset Scale. Which is one of the things reset xform does.

Mezz

Crap :P That makes sense, and would explain the problem... especially since I didn't adjust any roations or really do much to the biped at all except animate it.

So the question now is... is there any way to fix the animation short of scrapping it and starting all over? I tried some of the suggestions of going in and out of figure mode, and also saving out the .bip and loading it onto a new biped. However, this did nothing to change or fix the problem. (When in figure mode, it just went back to normal with the spine aligned properly.)

Can I adjust the placement of the spine within the animation? I'm not sure how the spine or waist can be physically moved (just rotated).

Is there any way to counter-animate this and "unwind" it back into the spine's proper placement?

At this point, I'm guessing I have to scrap the anim from where it starts to get screwy, don't I?


Nonetheless, thanks a lot for all the help everyone!! I really needed to know how to not do this again and again in the future. :P

monster

I know what happening. I see my students do this from time to time. You were probably doing a rolling, tumbling, or flipping animation.

You rotated the Bip01 object to point downward. But then you rotated the spine, pelvis, and legs to be "upright." Notice in the pic the helper aligned to the messed up biped is pointing down. The only way to fix it is to redo the animation from the point it starts to mess up. But this time continue rotating the Bip01.



Seeing that your max file is called "WallFlip" this confirms my suspicions.

Mark Dygert

Ahh that makes a lot of sense, flipped COM. I guess he rotated the pelvis around also? Animating with the local pivot will help you keep the COM facing up through the biped.

He might be able to fix it in workbench by adjusting the rotation on the COM then the pelvis and the spine. But I think you're right he's probably better off just redoing it.

Mezz

She*

And wow, you got it, that totally sounds like what I was doing... and I guess what I was doing wrong? Yes, it's a wall flip. And yes, I was rotating the bip 01, but didn't realize I wasn't continuing flipping it to match the spine and pelvis.

I'll muck around a bit in workbench, but sounds like I'm into redoville land...


Thanks a lot for clearing this up Like I said, this was a recurring problem in many of my anims...