Dawrven sheild

Nistrum

This is a project i working on for my portfolio. (look out for that im going to be posting that in here for crits too). this thing is 600 polys and is entirely normal mapped, all that you can see (bar the 2 spikes) is entirely normal mapped. but as you can see im having a really hard time with getting the metals right.

i would love someone to give me some help.
the dull metal is intending to be bronze but failing in alot of ways im liking the gold colour but it still needs a little work.

there are 2 things to note here.
1 that there will be another bit of normal mapping for finer impuritys dents/scrapes and battle damage. ill set that up later.
2. this is intended to help get me a job so a profecional standard is going to be the benchmark, all the help you can give will be well recived.

Thank you for your time

Nistrum

JohnnyRaptor

looks pretty good dude, tho 600 polys (1200 tris) for that feels like awfully a lot!

stimpack

Good start. The problem with the metals is that they all have the same gloss to them. So there is no variation in specular highlights, or spec power. Try making a gloss map and seeing what kind of results you wind up with. Some metals are more dull than others, you should play on this contrast to help boost this.

Nistrum

sorry i should have been clearere. i NEVER use quads.. its 600 tris.. also for some reason its very dark right now.ill lighten it up a bit. i have a specular colour map on it and thats it.. i was toying with what other spec mapping to use. i wasnt sure if i thaught i could get away with using the spec colour to do all the strengths of the spec but i think ill just make up another one anyone know which would e the best to do eccentricity (sp?) or roll off?

BTW this is maya in case anyone is wondering.

yeh the

Nistrum

slight update here guys.. how do you think itas comming?

cholden

It's still really dark. You're texture overlay is overpowering, and it doesn't hide the fact that the shield lacks detail. Take that crap off and focus only on unique detail. Texture overlays here should be an afterthought as a final enhancement.

As far as using this for portfolio, understand that this alone is too simple. You need to do a whole set of unique shields before I'd deem it portfolio quality. That, or one seriously badass shield, which this will never be. Hit up the Warhammer concept art and make 4-5 shields/weapons.

Nistrum

texture overlay? you mean the normal map?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28945970@N08/2698676916/sizes/o/
this is the WF btw

cholden

no I mean all that dirt, rust, etc overlayed on your material that makes it look warn out. Also, has way more edge loops than you need. If it doesn't enhance the silhouette or lighting of the mesh, you don't need it.

Nistrum

yeh i definately agree with you on the loops.. BUt that said i cang et rid of that whenever i like so im not in much of a hurry.. ill cut it down a little later. yeh the problem with that stuff is its a spec map to try and get the metals to react properly to the lighting. bronze especuially is very difficult to do.. im having a really ahrd time getting it to work.
my main problem ATM is the middle of the face and the general weakness fo the spec ion the whole face.

System

I don't know what the equivalent is in maya but in max - multi layer for metals where you have two values for specular and glossiness. Darkening the diffuse and increasing specular birghtness and contrast will help also.

Nistrum

i played arround and got some rice results id thaught about dakrening the diffuse and using more spec ill try that thanks

RobAI

What I think cholden is trying to say is that your diffuse texture is too dark. As far as the spec map goes your metal is looking more like poured metal than forged metal. Hand forged metal has softer highlights while poured metal usually has a rough surface that looks kind of splattery, hopefully the image below will help explain a little better.

bluekangaroo

I really like your textures on this....nice work

Nistrum

yeh i know what you mean. but this would be hand beaten smithed into shape. then quenched (in the case of the steel part). which tends to leave funny patterns on the finnished product...

the reason you see those "globules" int he 2nd render is i played about with adding the spec map to the normal map to see if i could get the pitted look you often get with things like cast gold and bronze.. a few people didnt like it so im going to take it out.

i definately agree that it is to dark. but i want to be careful not to over colour it. im going for as realistic a look as i can, i was told by someone significantly more skilled than me that over light objects look cartoony and cell shaded and i think he has a point, this is also designed to be an antique sheild. passed down from lord to lord.

Nistrum

update what do you guys think?

Thegodzero

what colors are your lights? What are each of the different materials supposed to be? You posted up the picture with reference but none of them look much like the material refs you posted. Could you post a picture with what each area on the texture is supposed to be made of? So far it looks like you have steel, goold~ish, and two unknown.

Nistrum

i didnt post the refs.
theres steel, gold as you pointed out as well as bronze (which is slightly off.. i think the highlights need to be slightly redder (the bronze is intended to look like this would have done origionally very dark and with wildly strange colouration tterns http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bronze_votive_shield.JPG/609px-Bronze_votive_shield.JPG)

the centre of the boss is intended to be copper along the lines of this http://njminerals.org/coin-copper-after-electrolysis.jpg

i hope that helps some

cholden

Here's the original concept
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/conceptart/CAT_sep_2006_10.jpg

Here's what your material looks like
http://www.pioneerasphaltinc.com/images/RockGallery/FillDirt.JPG

Ok not exactly, but that's what you are doing. As you can see from the concept, there is no metal texture overlays. It's painted/sculpted patterns and shapes with a new nicks and scratches here and there. I'm not sure why this message wasn't picked up in my previous posts, but you need to take that crap off your material. You are relying on it to do all yoru texture work instead of putting the work into it that you need to. Additionally the dirty metal overlay is overpowering your original details.

And if you're out of the know, I work on warhammer. I'm giving you direct feedback, and not just being a dick because I can. Paint/sculpt ALL details!

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/screenshots/Screens20070905_08.jpg

Nistrum

there IS no dirt on there. im trying to recreate the realistic look ofthe metals im trying to recreate. im not trying to create an asset for an MMO. im not a fan of flat shaded cartoony graphics. in the REAL world the metals i have used are very dark. their colour and visual impressions are given by the specular highlights as much as their diffuse... WAR HAS no specular.. im going for more of a next gen game style FPS/RPG rather than an MMO.

i dont mean to sound like im totally shooting you down. its just that i think were getting crossed badly because were misunderstanding one another. your trying to help me by putting me on a track to get mythics take on warhammer. and im trying to get a more photoreal (not100%) look and so because of that its getting heated.

Jason Young

I'm not going to touch on the texture issue, as I can see it both ways. I do think it looks pretty sweet.

On the concept, I like how the facial details really pop, and it has a lot to do with your shield being more bronze colored, and less green/patina-d than the concept. Obviously, it's your choice to make, but the concept's details definitely pop more. I think you can still achieve that realistic/gritty look you're going for, while making it closer to the concept in color.

Aside from that, I also like the proportions of the head/axes/rings better in the concept.

You haven't posted the wire, right? It looks like you could stand to add soem depth in the modeling for the face and axes, because it's not really popping out.

Rhinokey

Nistrum wrote: »

i didnt post the refs.
theres steel, gold as you pointed out as well as bronze (which is slightly off.. i think the highlights need to be slightly redder (the bronze is intended to look like this would have done origionally very dark and with wildly strange colouration tterns http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bronze_votive_shield.JPG/609px-Bronze_votive_shield.JPG)

the centre of the boss is intended to be copper along the lines of this http://njminerals.org/coin-copper-after-electrolysis.jpg

i hope that helps some

let me throw my 2 cents in here. (also a arist on warhammer online)
i'm not trying to steer you to our games style, but advice on rendering the object more realisticly

the 2 examples you posted, the coin and bronze shield are SUPER OLD antiques. that is why they are worn and gnarled. you should notice, neither of your posted examples are shiney.

you are trying to do the texture of super old worn metal, but with the shine and spec of freshly made and polished metal.

http://www.historicalnames.com/images/HP/BRONZE/BronzeKnightsm.jpg
http://www.ventanaws.org/images/bronze_membership/large-7-5-16-x-9-7-8.600.jpg

these are not shields, but are examples of less worn metals http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/923/55023955.JPG

if this piece is suposed to be a shield burried for thousands of years, then dug up and given a good polishing then perhaps your materials are ok.


one more thing, your painted details are bland and blurry

the concept has much more detail and things that would liven this up, the dwarf head and hammers are just blurry lines. it takes more than slapping on a normal map and shiney spec to make good art, i would advise to go back and spend some more time and put some real craftmanship into this, especialy the center piece.

and why did you shrink the head

Justin Meisse

the pitfalls of modeling from existing concepts > if your model strays from the concept it shows potential employers you have trouble matching the concept

And WAR has spec maps, I lulzed at that

ps. another warhammer artist here

Flewda

IMO it looks like a muddy mess. Feels like it has been sitting in the ocean for quite some time. As Chris said, your overlays are way overpowering, and distracting. You said that you are going for a more realistic look, and not Warhammer, but you are not achieving that either in my view.

It looks like reflective dirt.

As Chris said, nuke some of those overlays in the diffuse and spec, and focus on the details. Even if you are doing a more realistic version, doesn't mean you can skimp out on details (all the more reason to go nuts with details). I wouldn't argue with guys who work day in and day out with Warhammer stuff. Even if you are going with a different style, they more than likely could figure out a thing or two on how to make the WAR art look realistic too. Instead of disregarding critiques (that you are asking for btw) by telling them you are doing a different style, or that they are just flat out wrong, take a step back, listen to what they are saying, and try and run with it. Especially in a case where you are talking to the same people that work on the game.

Nistrum

thanks guys thats alot more like it
the problem was that cholden wasnt really explaining himself very well. i dont mean to sound ungreatful but..

"get rid of that crap and make it look like this" although it tells you there is something wrong , which i can plainly see. it isnt helping me to know what to actually do to fix it. id been toying with adding more to the diffuse map, illl post that up next time i update. i think a problem im having atm is getting that bronze style colour to work id like it to come up that nice green colour, but im having a really hard time finding a really good greeney bronze to recreate, the only one i have found is that sheild pic i posted as an example in my last post.

also i know what youmean about the details on the boss. its been really bugging me... i think itll be helped alot if i pauint more into the diffuse map, i should be able to get it to stand out more adding some details to the recessed areas will hwelp bring out the detail on the face its self.

lol and about the central boss being smaller was something i had totally forgotten about. id scaled it down before just to do something and never scaled it back. thats not a problem. i can rescale it before i make a new update.. thanks for pointing it out for me now i got a ton of stuff to change thanks guys (even and especially you chris(thats your name right) i meant to put in my last post i wasnt trying to outright shoot you down i aoppreciate your trying to help me )

anyhow. thanks alot guys. and there IS alot of work to do yet, fear not ill get ontop everything you mentioned any thing else you want to point out feel free

Flewda

www.cgtextures.com - type in the Search field "Bronze" good refs.

Nistrum

hey guys
i have made some changes which i think everyone can agree is starting to bring it forwards quite nicely. it needs details in every way but the important things i think are starting to get solidly laid down.. EG the colours and the textures of the base metals, the intensity of the spec on the golden area needs to change. but i think its getting there for the rest of it. (i took the gold off the boss part while i resized it)