Art Test - Crits greatly appreciated

Kovac

Hey guys, I haven't posted too much on these boards for critique, but there's no better time than now. I'm doing this model based off a concept for a Garage Games internship position. I REALLY hope to get this as this is my first real chance to get a scratch in the industry. Currently the model rests at 837 tris, and I don't know if I should put in more detail or just let be. There's a few optimizations that could be done as well, lowering it even farther. Here's the concept and model:



Is this a decent average in polycount? or is it too high/low. I'm going to have to start UVing this after..something I really haven't touched as much base on as I would like. Thanks in advance guys!

Sean McBride

You'll find that people want a pic with edges turned on. Its hard to critique otherwise. Not sure what the polycount is though. Could you tell us? It dosn't look bad, depends on what type of game youre putting it in.

Cubik

"Currently the model rests at 837 tris". Do you have any specified limit on how many you can used in the model?

Sean McBride

haha, doh. Scanned the text and missed it since its crammed in the middle.

Yeah, its still dependant on what the target system of the game is and what kind of game its being developed for.

Kovac

Ah shucks, I thought that second shot had the wires on it. Thanks for the quick reply. The polycount is 837 with room for a few more optimizations (corners of the small shack but I might round them off pending on how many tri's I still have to play with) Here's a shot with the wires


EDIT: I don't know the approximate figure, but it should be portable into Torque. I'm assuming anything from 400 - 1000 tris is pretty acceptable as a static object

CheeseOnToast

What game engine/platform is this meant for? Did they give you any kind of info on an expected polycount or anything? 800-odd polys seems a bit stingy for this scene. At the very least, model the fencing at the top part of the tower, and give the big wheel some more love. At its scale, it needs at least a 12 sided cylinder. Your scale for it is a bit off too,it doesn't resemble the water-wheel type thing in the concept, and it appears to be floating. Other than the wheel and the fence, it looks like you've done a good job with a tight budget. You need to find out some more specifics though, don't be afraid to ask questions. Drop them an email and ask for some info if they didn't give you any. Things to ask would be poly budget(obviously),camera point of view and type of gameplay (more detail at eye level for a FPS, less for a third person game, for example), type of lighting (don't worry too much about this, but if it was going to be pre-lit, you have to watch out how you place your verts)
By the way, is the internship going to be unpaid? I hear these horror stories of companies getting six months of free work out of newbies desperate to get into the industry. Only American companies, as far as I know. How evil can you get? Best of luck anyway mate =D

edit : : was typing this when someone else posted - I don't know much about the torque engine, but I think you could be a little more generous with the polys and get away with it. Check out the Tribes forums to see if any modders there can help.

Ninjas

Some of the roofs in the ref pic seem like they are sagging. Also, you should add the gate in, and the railing on the walkway. I would also consider putting in the tattered flag on the tower.

The model looks fine, but if I were you I would try to take it to that next level, especially with 150 polys to spare

DarthRevanII

Two things

First: Judging by the wire...the top of the tower...it's roof..........it's really, really oddly shaped...from the first pictures it looked like a cylender just squished in the middle...but the wires make it looks like an oddly deformed and all....at the top, you have verts welded together and others pushed at an angle, and yet the bottom seems to be perfectly circle (however, apply my NEXT crit to this roof as well)

Secondly, assuming this is mid evil times (maybe even a bit earlier), you aren't taking into consideration the true aspect of the times.
The roofs for instance, are PERFECTLY cut and PERFECTLY square...Roofs back then were either thick straw/whatever, or wood....I seriously doubt it would be as perfect as you have it (you can even see it's not in the concept) I'm sure making it wood would be the best option, but even so, it still should vary a bit in lengths and edges and such
Also, maybe those wood columns at the base of the tower should be bent a bit, not so straight

Same thing for the doorways, but I dont think that is *that* important...just me though...still should do it if you can


Maybe adding a few dents in the wall might be a good idea too, but then again, the concept doesnt really show that

***EDIT***
Actually I just looked at the concept again...maybe add some cracks on the walkway and near the ground, would be neat


besides that, it's looking great bro gl with the job!

Kovac

Thanks Cheese! That was very helpful. The job IS unpaid but a lot of their interns go through as full time artists after the program (I think it lasts 2-3 months, I may be wrong). 800 tris is very hard to work with with all the items going on. It's for the Torque engine if you've ever heard of it (www.garagegames.com). The water wheel, the gates at the top and some other minor issues are on the to do list, this was just what I had done thusfar. I put the wheel there as a placeholder until I came near my ending polygon count. I wrote Tim at Garage Games and he's been great in answering his questions, so I should get a reply on the polycount very soon. Other than that I have to do some fine scale tuning to make it seem more organic (according to the #mode_design room, I couldn't agree more). Thanks guys, I'll post updates asap!

Wells

the main thing that jumps out to is the scale of the stairs. Personally, I prefer the concept's.

Also looks like you changed the water-wheel into a giant cog, which makes slightly less sense.

Overall, I think the piece is too well made. Everything is too exact. throw in some imperfect corners and uneven surfaces, try and capture the charm of the concept.

SouL

If I were you, I'd go ahead and opt to add extra resolution to make the edges more natural. I would add slight curvature to take away the "perfectly-built-and-lined-up" feel and add some character to the scene. Make it feel weathered like in the concept. Add some oddly placed bricks here and there... bent wooden rails, uneven brick walls, etc.

But I would keep with what you have now and texture it first. Then go in there and start manipulating the geometry. It'll make visualising the effect you're after if everything (or at least the majority of it) is textured.

pogonip

I don't see why you don't e-mail them and ask them what the poly limit is ? To me that model looks pretty far off from the concept sketch . I mean really the devils in the details if you can get away with using more polys then try . I'd e-mail and ask them.

Kovac

Thanks for the great replies guys. Pogo I was awaiting a return email, just got it. They said sticking around 1000 tris is a good idea. It's currently at 1079 now, and I don't know if I'm going to put too much more into it. I tried to give a little more jaggedness to the doors/windows/steps/walls/roof, and hopefully it gives it just a little more organic feel to it. Here ya go:


Thanks again for all the crits guys, you have no idea how sweet it is to be given pointers by some amazing artists.

Joao Sapiro

i think you could cut some triangles in the parts i signed, those can be achieved via texturing and/or alpha mapping

Kovac

Thanks Johny:
I'm debating whether I should touch the highlighted points or not. The door on the tower I really can't simply because the way the door was cut into the cylander was that it was on the corner, so I need that extra slice there anywho. I wanted to give at least some kind of curvature to the roof and thought that part was actually noticed. I think I am going to do the top part as you said though, instead of putting blocks just making a cylander like the one below it and alpha mapping the posts holding it. What size maps do you guys think would be good for a structure like this? Thanks again!

pogonip

That looks better

edit+ Those steps near the tower I would give those more of an incline . Looking at the concept sketch there would be a bit more of a drop to the second wall . The steps are spaced to close together it looks like maybe there should be 2 steps instead of 4 right now .

FunkaDelicDass

Are you going to make a lighting pass on this? If so, I would even out your vert distribution. Right now your vertical walls are pretty empty; might want to add a few faces for lighting purposes. If you're over the poly count, that's ok, as long as it pays off with better lighting. For texture maps, I wouldn't go over 4 or 5 256's, that's pretty generous.

In general, it's not reading quite as organic as the concept. As others have pointed out, the posts and walkways are too straight. Take a look at some screens of any of the Jak and Daxter games for low poly modeling that still reads as natural and organic for reference.

Badge

It looks like theres a lot more detail that could be added. and doesnt seem to be matche for scale.

Kovac

New topic on advice. I'm ready to start unwrapping the model but don't even know where to start (not how to do it just what pieces to do first and whatnot) cholden suggested a 1024 map and scale it down to a 512 once done but I just don't know what kind of approach to use on unwrapping this. Should I be stacking a lot of things ontop of eachother to just give them the same texture or should I have the texture individual for each part. On a side note, how do I view textures in the perspective view (sorry, I didn't see it in the help file). Thanks again!

Paul Jaquays

Unwrapping: Look for surfaces that can share material (like all the roof areas). Design a layout that allows all those to share one material. Are you being limited to a single texture map for this area, or can you multi-subobject it?

When laying out the texture or textures, remember to acommodate aging effects.

Likewise, most of your timber areas can share one or more "wood surfaces."

Decide what is going to be the focal area of the structure and budget some sort of special texture for it, something that draws your eye to it.

Kovac

Thanks Paul, that definetly sparked in my mind as the good idea. I was greatly debating on making all sharing the same textures or unique textures for all. Things like the roof and the post will be doubled up but I'd like to make the walls somewhat unique in looks in some areas (by the gate around the doors). Thanks

Kovac

Ugh...it is quite apparent that I am hated by God by now. Ok so I realized part of the water wheel (that doesn't make any sense) was clipping into the castle, so I switched out of unwrap mode to go back to normal edit poly mode. Unfortunatly after doing that and going back to unwrap mode, none of the dimensions for projects became pickable. Any advice will be great, I don't know if I hit a button or why it would be doing it. Thanks and here's a pic.

Joao Sapiro

when that happens i would convert all to editable poly again and use the mesh select option, select the cilinders , apply a uvw map of cilindrical to them , then colapse to editable poly and unwrap it by hand. that problem i guess that only by colapsing it again to editable poly will do

Ruz

looks quite nice , but you seem to have missed out loads of detail. for example the fence bit on the side of the walkway,the gate as mentioned.
the water wheel thing has a lot more slats in it.
The steps have a lot more depth and all seem to be the same width in the concept.
you have a step that is a lot wider in the middle for some reason.

Lastly the water wheel housing has a diagonal beam.

Matabus

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh...it is quite apparent that I am hated by God by now. Ok so I realized part of the water wheel (that doesn't make any sense) was clipping into the castle, so I switched out of unwrap mode to go back to normal edit poly mode. Unfortunatly after doing that and going back to unwrap mode, none of the dimensions for projects became pickable. Any advice will be great, I don't know if I hit a button or why it would be doing it. Thanks and here's a pic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you were in polygon sub-object mode when you applied the unwrap modifier. Collapse everything, make sure you aren't in sub-object mode, and re-apply the modifier.

Kovac

Hey guys, thought I'd post a quick followup on this one. I did end up being selected for the internship at Garage Games! Thank you guys so much for your critiques in expertise, it helped a boat load. I am very excited to be starting this position, especially if you read my schooling post in the 2d/3d section, you'll know that this is an amazing opportunity for me to have. Just thought I'd give you guys the heads up and thank you for your advice!

CheeseOnToast

Gratz Kovac =D

Rick Stirling

And I know I missed posting on this, but when you do get the job, don't be afraid to ask for help here - about art and the work environment. We know you won't be able to post work, but you can alwasy replicate some of your queries at home and post those.


Good luck!

Kovac

Oh ya for sure Rick. I plan on doing a LOT of work in my offtime from the position in order to try to get into full time there. I'll definetly still be posting, and thanks CheeseOnToast .