Trial and Error, or ask for help? what do you do to learn?

pmiller001

     I used to a firm advocate of “learning for yourself”. By which I mean, I spent most of my time learning through trial and error. For example, If I didn’t know why a bake was turning out correctly. I would adjust what I know, do some reading and apply it. If that didn’t work, then repeat. Pre 2017 I rarely asked questions to others or strangers pertaining to technical problems, because I thought I should be able to figure it out on my own. I had even been told to “figure it out” when I did ask, which lead me down a path like that. Ultimately I was able to figure out most of my problems, but as I’m getting older I’m starting to realize something. Why on earth did I do that? these problems I was having weren’t new, and people much smarter than me had already solved simple issues (such as baking errors, and etc) many times over. Why didn’t i just ask? Why didn’t i just look for a course for that specific subject? I’m finding, more recently, that my time is an extra valuable resource, and as life’s demands start to pile up, just figuring out, isn’t an efficient option any more. 

       When someone asks me an easily searchable question, I like to answer specifically what they asked, and give them a link to  a source where they can read more. I have no problems with that. And if the problem gets more specific, and is within my skill set I’ll attempt to answer fully, to my complete capabilities.  I think the only caveat to that, is putting in some effort. If you’ve tried something, and it didn’t work, thats fine. I’ll help. Atlas you tried. My father always told me, Dont ever ask a question you dont already have an answer to. I like to apply that to 3D . 

What are your thoughts on this? I’d like to hear some differing opinions. or maybe some different interpretations of this. 

JordanN

I think it's fair if you're completely new to 3D that you will want to ask for a lot of help. It's a massive topic and with games and movies pushing closer and closer to photorealism compared to the early days of chunky polygons with bitmaps, it's nigh impossible getting everything right on your own unless you're a prodigy.

Overtime however, and the more you understand about 3D knowledge, I feel constantly asking for help actually becomes a hindrance. There really are a lot of tutorials out there that all you have to do is spend a few minutes reading and it will answer all your questions. Or just go through the polycount wiki and all the topics are there with similar questions answered. But again, this is because I've been doing 3D art now for 6-7 years, so I don't have much patience anymore to wait for answers and just want to get my work done on time.

pmiller001

JordanN said:

I think it's fair if you're completely new to 3D that you will want to ask for a lot of help. It's a massive topic and with games and movies pushing closer and closer to photorealism compared to the early days of chunky polygons with bitmaps, it's nigh impossible getting everything right on your own unless you're a prodigy.

Overtime however, and the more you understand about 3D knowledge, I feel constantly asking for help actually becomes a hindrance. There really are a lot of tutorials out there that all you have to do is spend a few minutes reading and it will answer all your question. Or just go through the polycount wiki and all the topics are there with similar questions answered. But again, this is because I've been doing 3D art now for 6-7 years, so I don't have much patience anymore to wait for answers and just want to get my work done on time.

That's interesting Jordann, thanks.  I hadn't considered that i might be a hindrance, asking for help as I get better at Art. Why do you think it becomes more of a hindrance?  I imagine you mean, because you're taking up someone else's time when you could go and learn it for yourself. 
I think i see where you're coming from, albeit I think its still really important to ask. I'd rather not re invent the wheel if I dont have to. What do you think? or am I mis interpreting you here. 

JordanN

pmiller001 said:

That's interesting Jordann, thanks.  I hadn't considered that i might be a hindrance, asking for help as I get better at Art. Why do you think it becomes more of a hindrance?  I imagine you mean, because you're taking up someone else's time when you could go and learn it for yourself. 
I think i see where you're coming from, albeit I think its still really important to ask. I'd rather not re invent the wheel if I dont have to. What do you think? or am I mis interpreting you here. 

I think of hindrance as in, imagine you're working on something really important but there's something you're only 50/50 unsure about. If you go about looking for people for help, it becomes a gamble because there's a 50% chance you might be right but you still put your project on hold just to get the answer you might be right about anyway.

Of course, it's always depends on the situation. I did ask my first tech question in what was almost a year recently, but that's because the topic I had felt way too serious to leave it up to chance. 

SnowInChina

i try to help out if i see questions covered by my skillset, not that big of a deal spending some time to make screenshots and a short explanation
i remember the time when i was starting out and a lot of things were unclear because you just don't know the name of the thing you are looking for and have a lot of gaps for basic things, so if i can help out and it takes me 10min to make some screenshots and give a short explanation, or look up a specific link and post it, no problem

asking questions myself is a different matter
after a certain time working in the field you most likely have heard all the terms and know how most things work, even if you haven't done them yet yourself. Most of the time its easier to just google the topic and look up an article/video about the topic

kmacneil91

I look back at my education and realize that I tried to relied too much on professors and classmates for information. In my career, at least at the beginning, I also asked my coworkers a lot of questions, too. The problem for me was that starting out, I didn't realize just how many resources there were out there. I was fortunate enough to have coworkers who were more than happy to demonstrate things, and point me in the right direction for resources. Now I keep a spreadsheet handy of links I can refer back to, and even document processes I learn for beginners who are just coming onto our team. I've had the opportunity to work with an intern and try to answer questions that they had as best I could. And we actually learned from each other, as new technology is being introduced into schools that I never even had the opportunity to work with. 

Ultimately, I think it's okay to ask questions (especially troubleshooting), as long as you're also doing your part to give back to others. Things like giving pointers for student work and answering questions for others that maybe took some time for you yourself, to master. 

throttlekitty

SnowInChina said:

i try to help out if i see questions covered by my skillset, not that big of a deal spending some time to make screenshots and a short explanation
i remember the time when i was starting out and a lot of things were unclear because you just don't know the name of the thing you are looking for and have a lot of gaps for basic things, so if i can help out and it takes me 10min to make some screenshots and give a short explanation, or look up a specific link and post it, no problem

asking questions myself is a different matter
after a certain time working in the field you most likely have heard all the terms and know how most things work, even if you haven't done them yet yourself. Most of the time its easier to just google the topic and look up an article/video about the topic

I know for me, when i was first learning going outside what I knew to try and answer forum threads helped me a ton. When I was first learning and even today. I'm sure there's plenty of other people around here that could say the same. Half the time I'm doing searches and finding old threads on similar topics; this is also super helpful for when you don't quite know the terms and you see someone say "Well I know you're doing X but have you considered Y?" where Y is something new to you as well, giving you new avenues to explore.

Then I take in whatever info I found and start playing around with it myself. It might be slower than just getting an answer right away, but I learn best by doing. Plus it gives me experience in doing whatever this new thing might be, so next time I use it, I at least know a little about it. My point of view for learning all this stuff in 3d, is that someone can give an answer, but only if they fully understand the question being asked. And that's the rub- the person asking might not know they're asking the wrong question, or doesn't give enough info to properly answer the question for one reason or another.

Alemja

When it comes to learning new things, it is different for everyone because everyone learns differently, but I do think there is such a thing as being too reliant on others for help to the point where you experience very little struggle. The struggle is what helps us learn and grow, reinforces certain concepts and makes us feel like we are making some progression. If your first instinct is to just ask the question without bothering to try it at all, it kind of seems like you aren't putting in the effort to learn, especially if you're asking the same question repeatedly, or constantly asking about basic knowledge that has plenty of discussions already out there.  If you've shown you've tried a few options first ("hey guys here are my bakes and files, I can't figure out why it's not coming out cleanly" etc) and still are having trouble, then asking can help you progress. Struggling, doing research and trial and error helps build problem solving skills, which is vital because there will come a point where there is no clear answer and you just have to do the thing yourself to figure out the right answer.

Now when you're in a studio using proprietary tools that have a lot of tribal knowledge behind them and little to no documentation, you're better off just asking because you can't google the answer and there are deadlines to consider. When you are also confronted with a more advanced problem that isn't as well documented, asking might not hurt either because in this case asking can help contribute to the pool of community knowledge. An example I can think of here on Polycount is when DOTA2 came out, vertical gradients in your textures were all the rage and there wasn't a whole lot of knowledge of how to pull it off. So people asked questions and the community where able to come up with a bunch of solutions, some of which are still viable today and can be found on the wiki.

I highly recommend reading through this, it's for programming but it can easily be applied to art: How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

sacboi

Yeah ditto, too the insights offered thus far, really helpful info especially for newcomers. Back when I started out online CG specific hubs were very thin on the ground, so the printed page (...text books) was my only source of info plus own trial and error workarounds and too a large extent still to this day.

Anyway sharing plays a vital part why I've remained an active forum contributor over the years coupled alongside a personal sense of satisfaction when my comment/s happens to help or point someone in the right direction.