(NSFW) Character Sculpt
polycounter lvl 11
**LATEST, LATEST, LATEST**
Got some time recently to have another crack at this...
Fixed up the awful underlying topology, gave her some temporary 'anime' style hair placeholder to give her more character whilst i'm working on the body.
Currently at the yellow line, working down. Smoothing, refining etc. My plan is to work down, then work back up and repeat until i'm happy, so that I don't get too fixated on one area too long.
**OLD, OLD**
Grabbed an older low poly base mesh from Max. Imported to Zbrush and upped the sub divisions to try and bash out a sculpt.
Still need plenty more passes on details, but I'm hoping to get crits on any anatomy issues.
In terms of direction, I'd like to try and and achieve something along the styles of Final Fantasy, Overwatch, sitting somewhere between real-life and stylized proportions.
I based the pose and proportions from a variety of concepts and screen grabs from tons of other character works.
Seemed the T-pose was not recommended these days as for sculpting game characters.... so I tried to follow a pose from current game character sculpts others had done before.
Got some time recently to have another crack at this...
Fixed up the awful underlying topology, gave her some temporary 'anime' style hair placeholder to give her more character whilst i'm working on the body.
Currently at the yellow line, working down. Smoothing, refining etc. My plan is to work down, then work back up and repeat until i'm happy, so that I don't get too fixated on one area too long.
**OLD, OLD**
Grabbed an older low poly base mesh from Max. Imported to Zbrush and upped the sub divisions to try and bash out a sculpt.
Still need plenty more passes on details, but I'm hoping to get crits on any anatomy issues.
In terms of direction, I'd like to try and and achieve something along the styles of Final Fantasy, Overwatch, sitting somewhere between real-life and stylized proportions.
I based the pose and proportions from a variety of concepts and screen grabs from tons of other character works.
Seemed the T-pose was not recommended these days as for sculpting game characters.... so I tried to follow a pose from current game character sculpts others had done before.
Replies
Gonna have another pass at the skull shape and armpits too.
I'd made a low-poly full body character in MAX before, but I needed to get with the times and try my hand at high-poly sculpting. It's been a long, slow, and tons of trial and error to get to this point.
I had started out a while back with a try at just a head sculpt in Zbrush with so-so results.
I found making a full-body sculpt helped a lot with sculpting the head more as I progressed, as it gave me a better overall 'feel' of the style and anatomy.
The strokes are quite harsh at this point as it's at a low/moderate sub division level for bashing out details.
Once I get crits and any issues are resolved, I plan to up the sub division, smooth it out, and make it a much more 'polished' sculpt.
I will probably retopo and project the detail also, as the poly geometry is pretty darn ugly from tons of move tool adjustments...
The only crit I can give is that the andominals look too oval.
Yeah, gotta give her abs some more love
As for dynamesh. I had gone into dynamesh early on in the scuplt at one point until it got to the point where I had to go for a more structured geometry to start hitting out the details without horrible deformations or loss in detail with each re-dyna mesh.
I found doing a low poly re-topo in Max where i could put geomotry exactly where I wanted , importing into Zbrush, sub dividing, and finally, projecting the details onto the new geometry worked really well. I have to do this few times as I'd mess up the new geomotry when i'd spot anatmoy issues later again and have to move the geomotry into ugliness, again...
I'm sure this is by far NOT the most efficient way of doing things, but with my limited knowledge I just go with what works best with my skills. It's been a 'trial and error' process, learning how to do it better next time.
It's all part of the learning curve i guess. If i try another sculpt after this, I now have (hope) a much better idea of geometry and anatomy and will be able to cut my pipeline down to a far more efficient process, cutting out many unnecessary steps.
As for ZRemesher, I had a play with it along the way. It's really good, BUT i found it frustrating i could never quite get the geomotry i wanted in certain areas even after tons of attempts with curve guide lines/density adjustments, etc. I just found it better to retopo in MAX where I had total control of the geomotry. Slow, but it got the results i was satisfied with.
The road to sculpting has certainly been a long and windy one for me
and, on a final thought, Once this sculpt is done, it will serve as good base mesh for future sculpts, which will save tons of time (IF i can nail this one!)
Next step I plan is to project the details onto a reworked base mesh and begin high sub div work, polishing it up.
Fingers crossed I'll start work on clothes, hair and accessories with a character concept goal.
Looking for any crits, advice very very much, please and thanks
I think it's an improvement, but would love some anatomy peeps to point out if i can push it more or if it needs more tweaking...
Thanks
[EDIT]
Incoming wall of text.
I think you're dealing with perhaps one major issue at the moment, but it's something that is resulting (and will continue to cause you) some additional problems. Right from the outset I can tell that you've jumped to too high of a resolution before really nailing down some of the fundamental anatomy anchor points (I'm guessing you're likely landing above 600k+ polys here?) Dealing with too high of a poly count before you're really ready for those higher levels of detail can result in mushy sculpts - It becomes very difficult to make any significant anatomy or structural changes when your sphere of control is too fine. I think your grasp of anatomy and where things are suppose to go is definitely getting there, but it appears as if you were just really excited to get to those fun musclely bits n' creases and rushed ahead to quickly. That can be a nasty trap to fall into where you end up constantly pushing around clay, but it can feel like you're not really fixing anything, just noodling.
I suggest jumping back down a little bit and really hammering out her figure a bit more.
And to do that, I would highly suggest you take another look into the Dynamesh-to-subdivision process. One of the key strengths of of using Dynamesh is how free form it can be - you can add and subtract from the model rapidly. However as you discovered, what it's NOT great at is transitioning to any kind of serious detail work. But that's kind of the point, your Dynamesh sculpt usually shouldn't be where you want to detail anything out. You block in, re-dynamesh, block in, re-dynamesh, etc. until you're happy with your rough shapes. You can slowly creep up in resolution slowly to eventually start locking down a few key landmarks, but it just takes learning and experience to determine when it's the appropriate time to project everything onto a duplicated and re-topo'd (or ZRemeshed) model. If you're trying to hash out specific nipples, muscle groupings, and creases in dynamesh, you've likely gone too far - leave that for your sub-d model.
Once you have a firmer grasp of Dynamesh, you can get away with a tiny bit more detail to re-project onto a proper model later, but take it too far and you lose the ability to make any large changes should they be necessary (and you lose half of it when you re-dynamesh). I'm actually at a similar stage in my current project, but it's a decent example of what you can achieve with even just using dynamesh. I think she's likely using an even lower resolution than your sculpt (her body is only about 94k polys), but by being conservative about up-rezzing, I'm not losing massive amounts of detail. At this point, I won't take her any further in dynamesh - a higher fidelity is going to require projecting onto a new mesh.
I will add a two key tips I picked up along my own path though:
I hope some of that makes sense. I'm actually interested in putting together a little mini guide on this exact topic to specifically show my process on when/why I move to each stage of the dynamesh as it's not a topic often covered, but that'll have to wait until after this project.
One last bit..
vavavoom said: NEGATORY, ABORT MISSION!
I was actually just discussing this with another artist recently, but I HIGHLY recommend against this. Jumping to "base meshes" too soon is a really fast way of crippling your own growth as an artist. A key aspect of the learning process is dedicated repetition and practice - using shortcuts, such as base meshes, can actually short-change your own efforts to practice and hone your craft. This is doubly true if perhaps you didn't absolutely 100% nail your original base mesh - any future project based off it will inherit any mistakes you made the first time around. Even at higher levels, you'll pretty consistently find professional character modelers will start from scratch every time for just this very reason. It may sound tedious to redo all that work, but I promise you'll improve and learn much more quickly if you force yourself to resculpt basic anatomy. It's a little like life-drawing that way.
The real exception to this is when an artist is in a studio and in a full production setting with deadlines that need to be met. That's where shortcuts you develop for yourself come in handy and are actively encouraged. Outside of that though, in your own personal work, doing it the hard way will pay dividends in the end.
Firstly, Wow! and Thank you so much much for taking the time and effort for this great advice and insight. Secondly, having read your reply I can see exactly how your advice makes perfect sense.
If I had the time and means, I would like very much like to step back. Unfortunately I lost all lower sub-divisions along the way somewhere. I think it was when I had to join the head to the body (I started out with just the head in Zbrush then imported my old low poly body from MAX) didn't know how to join/merge properly and ended up losing lower sub division levels in the process.
I told myself, push on, you can make the best of it. Large harsh strokes would be used to create the basic forms, and smaller softer strokes could refine the details more afterwards, was my thinking.
Also, I was/am very happy with how the head turned out and don't want to lose any of the detail on that by dynameshing to get back to a lower division level for the purpose of the body.
I've told myself now, that once i've got the stomach/pelvic area finally looking good enough (I'm far too stubborn) It'll be about time to retopo at at low base and continue on with mistakes learnt and (hopefully!) not repeated.
Aside from the stomach/pelvic area, I am very happy with where it's at right now in terms of shape/style/forms/overall look. The hands and feet and rest are looking just as I'd hoped. I do still need to shape shoulder blades and tone down the forearms, but if i can fix the stomach, i'm quietly confident these will be far more straightforward as they are not as complex detailed areas.
I suffer from a severe lack of knowledge and experience in workflows and have been going about it in a real haphazard, overly complicated and time-consuming way. So I really appreciate and value this feedback immensely.
I hope my reply doesn't come across as excuse making. I completely take your advice and thank you again so much for your great help.
Your work is indeed a really good example of what you are talking about establishing forms/shapes early at lower detail and i'm actually using to help me push forward. Thanks!
I stubbornly redid the stomach/pelvic one more time though. I used @RocketBrian example to push the forms I was missing before.
before/after
Not sure I want to throw it out. It took me so so long to get this far. hours referencing game character screen grabs, concept art, anatomy pics to get the feel and shape.
I mean, i totally agree to start from scratch for learning purposes. just, i so stubbornly want to see this one through first.
i'll post my base mesh so you can see where the basic form came from, in fact, if you search my older posts I think it's there somewhere still. Low poly, blocky, but got a nice overall shape going on i think.
The basemesh was really good for the overall form, but it lacked any detail for the stomach, hence my floundering around as I was tackling this area of anatomy for the first time in detail.
Hence, I feel, the feet, hands, legs all showed improvement with each edit. ONLY the stomach/pelvic area was my issue in edits, i feel.
All that remains is shoulder blades defined, and a tone down of the foreams, and i was ready to take it to the next step, polish it up, smooth things out. I was thinking I just have to get over this hill...
gaaah, the thought of scrapping it now is heart breaking, boo hoo!
As mentioned, the head was done separately which led to me losing the lower sub divisions when I joined them (totally messed that process up). I can post that also, again, reworked into quads and to fit the density of the body.
This is also the basemesh I plan to rework slightly to fit the current high poly shape better and then and re-project the detail onto.
Great work so far! There is a few fundamental errors with the anatomy, although it's hard to judge due to the pose. Try sculpting in an A/T pose as apposed to a star jump! On the left side i did a quick paint over of anatomy errors, The pectoral runs beneath the breast and tucks under your deltoid, and the inside breast is a bit high risen, think of boobs like a tear drop! The protruding ribs make more of an upside U shape in women (I would presume to make room for pregnancy, ergo wider hips also.) along with where the illiac crest and hip point protrude.
After that, just fix a few proportion issues, the elbow should ideally line up with navel, it's a bit low down due to the torso being a bit longer then it should. the shoulders are a bit wide also
I would recommend Andrew Loomis, figure drawing, for all it's worth. Great material.
It was good to step back away from it a while.
I spent a while studying anatomy and focused on torso sculpting.
I played about with moving the legs into a different pose, but I kept coming across problems getting to details in and around the lady parts when the legs where closed.
Still, I feel i've got a better understanding of anatomy now and overcome that hurdle (I hope).
Shoulders/back next, then she's almost there!
Toned down the hips somewhat as i think i over defined them in my quest to define the forms...
more subtle now.
worked the feet some more to make them more pretty. (ignore the messy underboobs, they will be tidied up).
defined the skull shape a bit more, sorry don't know the anatomical name, the bit where the top of the ear and the cheek are.
I swear i will do the shoulders/back for next post update...
It's be great for any critique or feedback if i'm overlooking something or suggestions on if any areas need need pushing more.
Thanks.
That aside, i'm not sure why you're using this faceted look so much, it distracts a lot from the forms you should be looking for. The only time you should really facet, is to block in the major planes.
The faceted look comes from my lack of modeling techniques. I basically use only a handful of brushes, clay buildup, flatten, move and a few others here and there.
I kinda thought that It would be ok to do it that way and then smooth/polish, refine everything after i do a retopo/reproject to clean up the geo, and then sub d and polish it all up.
I'm gonna go ahead and retopo/reproject to see what i can pull off. If it fails miserably, then yes, I'll go back to scratch. On a positive note, I really like the style and shape I got going on though, it's exactly the style I was trying to achieve fr@almighty_gir
Make or break time
Got some time recently to have another crack at this...
Fixed up the awful underlying topology, gave her some temporary 'anime' style hair placeholder to give her more character whilst i'm working on the body.
Currently at the yellow line, working down. Smoothing, refining etc. My plan is to work down, then work back up and repeat until i'm happy, so that I don't get too fixated on one area too long.
Gonna smooth and refine, then move on further down. Studied a ton of anatomy pics and game characters.
I found that there are many many subtle (and some not subtle) differences in anatomy detail from artist to artist and tried to pick out the forms that match the overall style i'm trying to achieve the best.
I hope it's looking more like an anatomically correct torso now... crits, pointers greatly appreciated as always
p.s. I wanted to include a reference picture I used for the torso, I got it from Artstation but I didn't note the artist to credit and can't find the artist profile now... what's the rules on using reference pics without crediting the artist?
oh, here it is anyways, I really like this art style.
https://www.artstation.com/namgwon
Based on your series of screenshots, you seem to be following a very logical series of steps : finding some good looking references, and carefully trying to translate all the small subtleties and details of the paintings into your sculpted model, also incorporating what you learned from real life anatomy.
But the thing is : these references and photos are all posed, like museum statues would be. Whereas your cg character is supposed to be built in tpose, and posed later. That means that every little sculpted surface detail you lay in might end up being detrimental to the final posed version, or even contradicting it altogether (that is to say : every muscle that you accentuate in your sculpt as it was in a flexion state, will look out of place when the limb is later posed in extension). Another way to think of it is to keep in mind that at this time you are fighting with an irreconcilable equation : placing "cool little sculpted landmarks" on something that is, by nature, in a different pose than your refs.
You may believe that the sculpting phase is important, but think about it : you are obsessing about surface details that only contribute to a mere 1% of your overall final character. My advice for you would be to just stop doing all that, spend your time on creating a clean retopo similar in density to this https://us.v-cdn.net/5021068/uploads/editor/5n/fb1uyar6rjfr.jpg , and move ahead. You'll have all the time in the world to re-sculpt the important parts later (face, hands ...).
What you are doing at the moment is only slowing you down. Think of the big picture, and works towards that instead.
Here's another way to think of it. Look at CG movies from this era :
No face scanning, no Zbrush - just straight up clean modeling. You might think that playing around in Zbrush is faster (and in some cases it is) but in your specific case you've crossed over to the other side - it is slowing you down to a crawl.
If you ask me you shouldn't use other people work to learn anatomy
(if they make mistake you are going to learn this mistake) maybe except master's work
One major issue with your model - abdominal part of pectoralis major doesn't connect to the right spot also your breast doesn't have axillary tail
Best