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Texture composing soft ?

gnoop
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gnoop polycounter
Do somebody know a good, convenient  soft to compose multiple rendered fragments?  mostly from Zbrush into tileable textures ?      The one able to combine Z depth in a way,   fragments  would intersect to each other properly , according to their depth.     Rock pieces/stones for example . 


Many programs can do so to some extent  but all they are pretty inconvenient.

Zbrush 2,5d layers  - totally destructive and have  only color and depth channels .

Substance designer - capable to work with two or three  things  to combine their depth  but  you can't really select a separate piece / stone  to tweak / scale /move or it would require tremendous amount  of time  and efforts  and a huge node network.   Imo the ability to  tweak any given piece easily  is a key thing to make things less repetitive   and it's kind of hard to do in the soft too focused on procedural stuff exclusively. 

Fusion - better and more elegant node structure , still same drawbacks  - too many nodes if you need to re-compose a couple dozen of stones/rocks into a new cliff.    No convenient support of texture  specific channels .
 Depth combine is always  aliased. 

Blender  -  best Z combine  feature,  no transform gizmo , same drawbacks of node based systems .  Every subtle move/scale  requires its own node.

Photoshop - possible in its last version but depth combine done with layer blending requires so complicated stack of layers  it works only with 2 objects really.


Anything else I missed?       Do somebody have any suggestions?







  


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  • 2bytes
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    2bytes polycounter lvl 2
    Look into Deep Compositing using Nuke.  Its designed to do exactly this, but probably more involved and not for a games pipeline.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    if your problem with compositing apps is that the node networks grow large and hard to read then look for functionality to organize nodes within groups to condense a bunch of nodes into a single, expandable icon. the old shake has that, for starters. probably a standard feature everywhere. then just group your transforms so you can easily isolate them?
  • LiquidHelix
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    I know Blender and Fusion, and they both have options to save groups that can be imported into new projects. I think Nuke and Natron(OSS alternative to Nuke) can too.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    Problem with thomasp said
    thomasp said:
    if your problem with compositing apps is that the node networks grow large and hard to read then look for functionality to organize nodes within groups to condense a bunch of nodes into a single, expandable icon. the old shake has that, for starters. probably a standard feature everywhere. then just group your transforms so you can easily isolate them?

     Problem is that   for cutting off or masking  and  then  re-arranging  a dozen or more fragments so they wouldn't  be  so repetitive like Substance Designer often do ,  you have to do a lot of  redundant  separating, masking , edge blurring and  transform/scale nodes  and the grouping wouldn't change it a lot.    

    I just want something like usual  layers / vector objects with convenient instant  transform gizmo + feathered edges   being at the same time true multi channel like exr files  +  depth aware blending .  

        Grouping helps to simplify node network visually but not necessarily make  your life easier when you only want to just select a thing , move and scale it .    Even for just selecting necessary image piece you have to recall in what exactly node group it's hiding . There is no Photoshop styled auto-select tool.      And a month after you barely able to recall anything in your own files. 

    I love  a vector soft - Xara .  It's not multi channel  but  after very convenient  composing  all  the image pieces into final composition you could replace all of them into  roughness and normal channels just in a couple clicks  due  to very handy inheritable  tags  and everything being vector.    Too bad it can't work with 16bit  depth .

    Wonder if After Effect could help with that since it's still layer based?  
    Never tried Nuke. Does it allow to work with image pieces in a kind of Photoshop style?  With  on screen  select tool  and then move and scale without extra nodes?




        


  • thomasp
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    thomasp hero character
    I know Blender and Fusion, and they both have options to save groups that can be imported into new projects. I think Nuke and Natron(OSS alternative to Nuke) can too.
    thanks for reminding me of natron's existence! added to the toolchest. and yes, it has a grouping feature in the context menu.

    as for the OP: i think you just have to choose between a layers or node-based approach. the only blend between those i have ever dealt with is (autodesk) flame's action module. and i think that may be a bit of a stretch to use for your purpose. ;)


  • 2bytes
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    2bytes polycounter lvl 2
    What Nuke has with Deep compositing is being able to rearrange layers without holdout passes because everything gets rendered...literally.  This introduces new tricks with volume masks and depth slicing.

    But thomas is right...either you choose a layered solution or node solution.  No holy grail and both have caveats.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    Does Nuke differ  a lot from Fusion?   Curious if it's able to make anti-alised mask when combining depth ?  ( like a check box in  Blender Z combine node)  
     For some uncertain reason video composers don't find it necessary  while for textures it's imo a key thing.   In Photoshop at least you could set some blur in fixed pixel values .  In Substance designer you have to adjust same kind of blur manually  for every fragment each time you rescale something .  In Fusion  for getting nice anti -aliased  masks you have to work with  huge  source resolution  making everything too slow. 
  • 2bytes
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    2bytes polycounter lvl 2
    Nuke and Fusion are direct competitors...so they will have a very similar feature set.  Also similar workflow.

    Z Depth with anti aliasing is handled by the render app actually.  Compositing apps just work with 2d images.  Deep EXR images will be multi channel and floating point. 



  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter
    2bytes said:
     Compositing apps just work with 2d images.  
     Blender Z combine node has  an  "Anti-Alias Z"    checkbox   (on  by default)   in its 2d compositing mode.    It makes resulting mask for color channels antialiased .  Very handy feature texture wise especially for small, few pixels details, hairs etc.        

    I wasn't able to recreate same behavior in Fusion.      Wonder if Nuke has a workaround or perhaps just same feature?
  • 2bytes
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    2bytes polycounter lvl 2
    I cannot answer that directly, normally Zdepth AA is handled by the renderer.  For combing different Depth channels you can try the Nuke Non commercial versiom
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