Mirror's edge 2 focussing on combat.

polycounter lvl 8
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Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/06/24/mirrors-edge-2-will-be-focussing-on-first-person-combat-says-dice-general-manager/#null

So you are taking the worst element of a great game, and making it the focus of the sequel.

Wow guys...

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  • thomasp
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    thomasp interpolator
    "What I can say is that if the last game focussed on first-person movement, it was definitely shown in the movie here that the DICE team will be focussing on first-person combat as well, to really nail and refine that"

    unless my english language sensor is broken it does sound to me like he's saying that they are looking to improve the (admittedly rather dodgy) fisting that was in part one, not focus the entire game around it.
    but hey, nothing wrong with a little nerd rage long before a release. please, do get worked up. ;)
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    Eh, Combat misses the point completely as to why Mirrors Edge was amazing. It is a speed running game at it's heart and unless you treat enemies as moving walls to further decrease run times they are a distraction from the elegant game mechanics.

    Can't we just have one fucking AAA action game without a focus on beating up dudes?
  • synicalx
    thomasp wrote: »
    unless my english language sensor is broken it does sound to me like he's saying that they are looking to improve the (admittedly rather dodgy) fisting that was in part one, not focus the entire game around it.

    I'm inclined to agree. The first game definitely had the potential for combat to occur, but the combat itself was easily the weakest mechanic of the whole game.

    If they mean they're improving combat rather than refocusing the whole game around it, I'm all for that. But only time will tell I guess
  • ambershee
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    ambershee polycounter lvl 11
    I've no aversion to combat, but the combat should be something that is desirable to be avoided. The odd flourish to disarm an opponent is no problem, but I'd be a little concerned if combat becomes a more viable option than running.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    I'll say this, as a major fan this is more of a disappointment than anything else. And not even on the level of if it enhances gameplay or not.

    It's simply that the first one seemed to be a sign of the games industry growing up with the themes it chose to use.
  • Paznos
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    Paznos triangle
    Yeah i gotta agree, its pretty disappointing really. Completely expected though given the E3 trailers focus on combat.

    If i remember back when the original came out it was panned in reviews for having shitty combat. It seemed more indicative of the kill everything culture in games and i guess they're just responding to that critique. When i played it the first time round i went for the zero combat route it gave the whole escape / running gravitas which is kinda lost if you're competent at just murdering everyone.
  • Brygelsmack
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    Brygelsmack polycounter lvl 6
    Eh, that's not how I interpret that at all. They're taking a shitty part of the first game and improving upon it. Doubt it means they're forcing you to go in guns blazing, but rather just making it a better option for the select few who want to play that way.

    http://youtu.be/TYtlSqIPO7k

    If the video is any indicator of how the game is going to play, I think it's gonna be great. Looks fast, the takedowns look cool and the movement very much like in first game.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 8
    Muzz wrote: »
    http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/06/24/mirrors-edge-2-will-be-focussing-on-first-person-combat-says-dice-general-manager/#null

    So you are taking the worst element of a great game, and making it the focus of the sequel.

    Wow guys...

    Man, way to give a negative spin to everything.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    Yeah admittedly, I shouldn't have put such a provocative title. It's a bit late to change that, Though i was paraphrasing the linked article.

    I have a lot of respect for the people making this. (didn't realise you were at DICE man, that's awesome.)

    Combat in a speed running game is a bizarre idea. To make realistic AI you need to have some element of fuzzy logic, meaning that things aren't predictable as such, of course you can make the AI deterministic but that defeats the point of AI.

    What it means is that you have random variables affecting each playthrough. It looks like DICE isn't developing the game i want and i respect that and I'll reiterate mostly that I'm just disappointed.
  • gsokol
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    gsokol Polycount Sponsor
    It looks like DICE isn't developing the game i want

    Maybe its the game you don't know that you actually do want?

    Sorry to jump on the hatorade bandwagon, but you are jumping to conclusions about an article written by somebody who was told some things from somebody. Hardly a reason to be "dissapointed."

    I'll go with what other people are saying...lets wait and see what the game actually is before pulling out the pitchforks.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 8
    from KM in the article you linked
    "What I can say is that if the last game focussed on first-person movement, it was definitely shown in the movie here that the DICE team will be focussing on first-person combat as well, to really nail and refine that,"

    from the video:
    "Mirrors edge is a game focused on movement"
    "Everything is based on traversing the environment quickly"
    "We're building combat with the moveset in mind"
    "whenever she does hit, she hits quick fast and hard and then moves on"
    (Also take not there was no first person gun to be seen in the video)

    I fail to see how any of this can be interpreted as "we're focusing our entire game around shitty combat" ?

    And just as a side note; as developers we all know how frustrating the hate, rage and vitriol is that we can get from gamers on sites like Reddit, Kotaku and others, especially since they like to exaggerate things and jump to uninformed conclusions.
    It really gets to me when in a place like polycount, where we are among peers, this kind of thing happens too. I'd think we're above that, no?
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    "we're focusing our entire game around shitty combat" ?

    Where the hell did i say that? I didn't say that the combat was shitty, nor that it couldn't be done well. I am not spreading hate and vitriol. I honestly think you miss what I am trying to say.


    I'm honestly curious. What do you feel that combat adds to the game design?
  • dempolys
    Muzz, chill.

    You seem to be really Reactive and it's coming across the wrong way.
  • Beinahruga
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    Beinahruga polycounter lvl 3
    Their approach makes total sense to me, with the first game many reviews and players criticized that the combat didn't feel as well developed as general movement and traversing the environment, to me it sounds like they're just giving that aspect of the game the attention it requires to feel snappy and satisfying.
  • Xoliul
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    Xoliul polycounter lvl 8
    Muzz wrote: »
    "we're focusing our entire game around shitty combat" ?

    Where the hell did i say that? I didn't say that the combat was shitty, nor that it couldn't be done well. I am not spreading hate and vitriol. I honestly think you miss what I am trying to say.


    I'm honestly curious. What do you feel that combat adds to the game design?

    I'm extrapolating from 'making the worst part the focus', maybe that's not what you meant but it came across as that.

    So to clarify a bit with what I'm allowed to say:
    We really listened to feedback from players on the last game, and are working from that to determine where to focus and improve the latest version.
    For combat, the main goal is to have it flow together with movement, make it feel as if you're never interrupted. Honestly the quotes from the video are pretty accurate. Also the part where she goes around taking out some guys consecutively without stopping shows what we're going for pretty clearly I think. Just in general the video is pretty honest, so if you really hate what you see there, then that's unfortunate.
  • marks
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    marks polycounter lvl 9
    When I saw that article my first reaction was like ... tableflip.gif too. It's a knee-jerk reaction though, I don't think it's a horrible thing to focus on it just depends how much it ties into the rest of the game really
  • Clark Coots
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    Clark Coots polycounter lvl 6
    from the video it just looked like they made combat more fluid with the movement throughout the level, not necessarily stopping your momentum to fight several bad guys.
  • Pancakes
    His avatar is so very appropriate for what he's saying in the thread =DDD
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 6
    They are just improving the weakest aspect of the game, the few times in ME1 where combat was forced was frustrating as hell. Like the bosses.

    Also the way they said they are improving it sounds interesting. Since they are saying they want to improve the combat system with movement in mind. Which in my head that would translate into being able to do things such as boost or wall jump off a unsuspecting opponent to proceed. Instead of having to go around him or get in a fight with him.

    Really don't toss the baby out with the bath water yet, they changes could be positive and innovative like using enemies as things you can jump from for more height. Or it could be what you fear.

    Either way you should wait to figure out.

    P.S.
    The tinfoil hat of yours us very stylish.
  • Darth Tomi
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    Darth Tomi polycounter lvl 9
    When the combat came up the game came to a dead stop. Otherwise it was an awesome game.
  • stevston89
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    stevston89 polycounter lvl 5
    I don't see the problem. They are focusing on improving the worst part of Mirror's Edge. They never said that means the game will revolve around combat. If anything it seems they want to integrate combat into the movement making everything flow better. At least that is my interpretation from the footage and interviews.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    I'm just lamenting the use of violence in a game that i didn't see as needing it to stand up.

    But I'm just going to say that I'm stepping out of this thread. Feel free to continue and talk about how awesome the game looks. as it does look rad.
  • NegevPro
    Combat was pretty weak in the first game so I'm glad they're making an effort to improve on it. From the gameplay shown already it looks great.

    I do hope there is an "endless run" mode where you could just run around in a randomly generated environment. Although I doubt we'll see anything like that in the game unfortunately.
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 6
    NegevPro wrote: »
    Combat was pretty weak in the first game so I'm glad they're making an effort to improve on it. From the gameplay shown already it looks great.

    I do hope there is an "endless run" mode where you could just run around in a randomly generated environment. Although I doubt we'll see anything like that in the game unfortunately.

    This would be pretty cool. If it was like a temple run deal where you start running faster and faster as the jumps get harder.
  • Pancakes
    Muzz wrote: »
    I'm just lamenting the use of violence in a game that i didn't see as needing it to stand up.

    But I'm just going to say that I'm stepping out of this thread. Feel free to continue and talk about how awesome the game looks. as it does look rad.

    Violence in videogames isn't real. It's just a representation of conflicting interests between the player intelligence and/or the AI. If over coming an environmental puzzle is legitimate then I don't see why overcoming enemies in said environment should be seen as some sort of cop out.

    Certain things are popular for a reason. And some wise man? once said that "things that work within nature repeat themselves". Even your avatar is a meme.
  • kneedeepinthedoomed
    I didn't find the combat in the first game to be horrible. I actually liked the takedown moves since I have a martial arts background. I thought those were very well done.

    The shooting was generally bland compared to most first person shooters, but I thought that was because the game really didn't mean for you to shoot everybody. And Faith is obviously not a soldier, she is a runner. Perhaps other people mistook the game for a shooter and tried to kill everyone, that might be where a lot of the complaints came from :-s

    The effect was that I generally avoided combat and tossed weapons away pretty quickly after disarming someone, which I thought was the intention. But perhaps I'm not the typical gamer.

    Anyway, I just hope DICE doesn't make the combat in ME2 so attractive that people start playing it like a shooter. It would be really sad if Mirror's Edge got turned into a FPS with some running just because typical gamers are expecting to solve situations with combat...

    I would like the disarm and takedown moves to stay realistic, like the ones in the first game were. I hope DICE is working with martial artists for this aspect of the game instead of just inventing flashy stuff. It is really, really hard to take someone down without changing your direction of movement, actually, because mass is involved. You have to put some force into the opponent to take them down - that will affect your own force. Energy cannot come out of nowhere. Contact with the opponent's mass will slow your own mass down and affect your trajectory, there is practically no way around that without altering the laws of physics. And I really hope they won't do that.

    The one thing I would like from a Mirror's Edge 2 is less linear levels. Just a few additional, optional routes to take. And new types of obstacles, and new platforming moves. That's what I would enjoy. Increase the feeling of freedom by giving Faith more options. After all, the freedom of the runner and the oppressive system was the main juxtaposition of the first game.

    I would also like more story. I think the story is potentially great. How to convey story while running is another tough nut to crack, I guess. Faith can't just stop to read a letter.
  • Isaiah Sherman
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    Isaiah Sherman polycounter lvl 9
    thomasp wrote: »
    ...looking to improve the fisting that was in part one...

    Dear god, don't do anything with the fisting.
  • skyline5gtr
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    skyline5gtr polycounter lvl 4
    this is a shame i really like the puzzle aspect more
  • ZacD
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    ZacD greentooth
    I'd like to see combat in terms of running through, over,and under enemies. Maybe running from police with melee weapons, doing some hit and runs, etc. I'd love to see moves to push enemies off ledges and a disarm move that was a tackle, roll, and run. As long as your character doesn't stop moving, combat works. I'd love to see a boss fight where you have to do a hit and run attack from above, behind, and below, while he destroys the environment.

    The stop to disarm in the last game did not work, and enemies should be used as part of the platforming as puzzle pieces.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 8
    ZacD wrote: »
    The stop to disarm in the last game did not work, and enemies should be used as part of the platforming as puzzle pieces.
    That would be so nice. The last few levels with all the guards was a pain, wish you could attack and keep the flow. Either way, I am buying this game.
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    You know what i actually want to see.

    Dustforce style replays with a global leaderboard.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp interpolator
    Dear god, don't do anything with the fisting.

    you saw what i did there... ;)
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 13
    Lamont wrote: »
    That would be so nice. The last few levels with all the guards was a pain, wish you could attack and keep the flow. Either way, I am buying this game.
    If you take a look at the E3 video, this looks pretty much like what they're going for - a quick jump or slide kick without going into a canned animation or breaking the flow.
    I'm pretty sure I saw somewheres that they were also eliminating Faith's ability to wield a gun entirely, though I may have imagined that.

    I'm still inclined to think maybe they would have been better to go with a more Tony Hawke styled game and stripped out the combat entirely, but as long as they've still got the speed run feature and keep the multiple paths through the levels, I'm down.

    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYtlSqIPO7k[/ame]
    (I think thats the video. I'm stuck on my parents' crippled internet so can't actually check it at the moment)
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 12
    Love it! I can't wait to see what else they can pull off. So far, they look like they've done a fantastic job with the flow & combat tatics.
  • Mask_Salesman
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    Mask_Salesman polycounter lvl 8
    This is a game sequel I'm actually looking forward to... I'd be content if the improvement of combat is only to not distract from the movement as much, but I know we all fear combat becoming a more prominent part of the game.

    I've heard alot of complaints about the combat being weak previously, true it was abit clumsy but it also became slightly overpowered later on. You could simply sidestep turn to the enemy's back and KO them with the ninjas.

    I did like that the game tried to avert you from combat in general as it wasn't what the concept of the game was about. As long as that remains the focus ratio then I have no worries about the sequel.
  • Suba
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    Suba polycounter lvl 4
    Well even if there is more fights, it still can be fun.

    I just hope they won't make us endure another clumsy story with awful cutscenes. To me, THAT was the worse part of the game. Pretty weird when you know they hired a writer to work on the story. Hell...
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