Ok, seriously though (Biped curves?)
polycounter lvl 6
G'day!
I finally got hired, dream job and all that.
I have to learn 3d studio max - BIPED :poly127:
I have a ton of questions, but the one that bother me the most is:
Curves
I've googled this, asked the one 3d studio max user on my skype about this and I've come to the conclusion myself that - there is no way in hell that I'll be able to edit curves using tangents in the curve editor / workbench when using Biped?
I am stuck with the TCB crap?
So how do you make animations loop?
I think I dug up something here on pc a while back where somebody mentioned copying keys to before 0 and after the end of the loop and then working with the curve you get there...
But that doesn't seem pro to me.. just an ugly hack to get something to almost work
How can one get tangent handles to work with?
Bonus question!!
Is there any way in heaven to loop an animation like you can in Maya/Motion Builder as shown in the picture above.. Where the program just copies the animation without actually putting keyframes all over the place.. so you can see the in and out curves of your loop and adjust the handles acordingly...
I am going to assume - no
So, how do people make loops in Biped?
How do people work with this to make AAA titles?
I need to know! :poly142:
Thanks!
I finally got hired, dream job and all that.
I have to learn 3d studio max - BIPED :poly127:
I have a ton of questions, but the one that bother me the most is:
Curves
I've googled this, asked the one 3d studio max user on my skype about this and I've come to the conclusion myself that - there is no way in hell that I'll be able to edit curves using tangents in the curve editor / workbench when using Biped?
I am stuck with the TCB crap?
So how do you make animations loop?
I think I dug up something here on pc a while back where somebody mentioned copying keys to before 0 and after the end of the loop and then working with the curve you get there...
But that doesn't seem pro to me.. just an ugly hack to get something to almost work
How can one get tangent handles to work with?
Bonus question!!
Is there any way in heaven to loop an animation like you can in Maya/Motion Builder as shown in the picture above.. Where the program just copies the animation without actually putting keyframes all over the place.. so you can see the in and out curves of your loop and adjust the handles acordingly...
I am going to assume - no
So, how do people make loops in Biped?
How do people work with this to make AAA titles?
I need to know! :poly142:
Thanks!
Replies
http://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2015/ENU/?guid=GUID-8D3FF404-082E-44D5-99B1-68F960A45D0D
Autodesk bolted on a curve editor for Biped. IIRC it wasn't the greatest thing, but it's better than it used to be in TCB-only land.
http://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2015/ENU/?guid=GUID-1ED3E68B-8E39-4370-B038-C0177F7E9FEA
1. It's dead easy to setup. Just size it to your character.
2. The copy/paste tool is very robust.
3. Posing freely FK or IK style becomes very natural.
4. One click to mirror an animation.
5. Layer system is only second to Motion Builder.
6. MassFX has a one click Biped to ragdoll tool that I use to make death animations.
7. You can set IK objects for hands and feet.
8. The animated pivot for the hands and feet is very useful.
9. Saving and loading BIP between different size Biped works amazingly well. This makes it an awesome mocap tool
10. Once you are used to Biped, traditional rigs with hundreds of controls will frustrate you, since Biped stores all keys in just 8 tracks.
All that said, you have alternatives.
1. Create your own custom rigs. (As you would for Maya/Modo.) This will give you access to all of 3ds Max's animation tools. Nearly all Maya tools have a parallel operation in Max.
2. CAT is an alternative to Biped. It's more flexible in the type of rigs you can create, and it supports the Curve Editor and Out-of-Range types.
with that, maaaaaaybe one could work with the TCB numerics and get a smooth loop
they told me to play around with Bip and to get used to it..
I can work with it if I have auto key on - the deal with 3-4 different ik keys just confuses me.. and max seems confused as well
but I guess hopefully they have some other objects that might drive the Bip, which then would have proper curves.......I guess they would loose too many Bip features doing that though..
I asked them during the skype interview, when they told me to get used to max.. I asked them, "would that be Bip or CAT?" hoping to hell that he'd say CAT, but he said Bip so..... I guess any CAT stuff is out of the question
I use Motion Builder for everything I do..
Bip feels like an early version of the idea that Motion Builder refined, the whole one global rig that has a bunch of features that you rig your characters with... it just feels like Bip stayed in the 90-ies with its workflow and features
Thanks for the aswers though!
I take it there is no way to make a proper loop (what with TCB and all) and I guess that's why the sprint in their latest game isn't looping properly........
You can get used to the TCB stuff, it's not a huge deal. I had numbers in my head for a bunch of kinds of curves but forgot since it's been maybe 6 months since I last used it.
This is quite helpful:
http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/bipedkeyer-v1-4
There has been some really good info so far, I'll add a little bit and hope it helps.
You can set your biped pieces to use Euler (on a per piece basis) and you will get tangents with handles. Select the biped pieces, in the biped menu under Quaterion/Euler set it to Euler. I've run into some problems with this, mostly when loading and saving animations sometimes the curves reset. Or the curve editor gets a little buggy and won't let me select keys or adjust the handles.
The standard curve (the one you use for regular max objects) can work with biped "pretty well" but you will want to add the "Biped: Track View" toolbar to your editor. right click a blank spot in the curve editor toolbar and choose "Show Toolbars, Biped Track View". I keep mine docked at the top. I suggest saving over the default layout.
This will give you access to the position and rotation tracks on the COM which are hard to get to otherwise. Or you could use workbench (found in Biped Menu, Biped Apps) it has a drop down that lets you switch between position and rotation. Sometimes I end up using the workbench to switch it because it gets stuck on position if I deselect the COM without setting back to rotation.
Also you can edit the TCB values if you want to work in Quaternion, just right click the key in the curve editor. It's not as friendly as handles but it can get the job done.
Also "BipedKeyer" is a pretty good script for quickly setting Quaternion values.
http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/bipedkeyer-v1-4
If the biped is hard to select you can add an edit poly to the biped object, delete the original mesh element and attach new meshes to it to change the way it looks. I personally like to set my biped's to "display as box" with a few custom mesh objects replacing the hips and COM, making them easier to select.
They still pivot and rotate from the same places, its just the look of the mesh object that has changed.
"I am stuck with the TCB crap?" - Yes and No. You can switch to Euler but it'll only allow you to use tangents on non limb/IK parts (spine, pelvis, neck and head). You can use Euler tangents on the limbs but only when you're not in IK.
Some great tools you should be using :
BIPED SELECTION (anything by Jim Jagger is great - especially his buttons for free,lock,sliding keys)
- http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/biped-tools
QUICK TCB CONTROLS
- http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/bipedkeyer-v1-4
I don't feel that the praise Biped is given is deserved, as the Motion Builder rig clearly is the better alternative..
I guess I'll have to hope for the other animators at the company to show me how they loop stuff and generally work with curves.. I'd like to stay away from 3rd party plugins as long as I can, I've never used them even in Maya (not even for modeling!) since I'm weird like that..
thanks again for all the info, it was just about what I was expecting (other than a magic button that makes stuff make sense) !
I'll give all your suggestions a go (I've already tried the "Parameter Curve Out-of-Range Types" which didn't work on biped) - and yeah, I get that I'm supposed to use Workbench rather than the curve editor .. but I've heard both actually do the same stuff....
I do feel your pain though; it's been begging for updates for ages now and I heard rumours that Autodesk aren't developing it anymore.
Yes Mobo is great at clean up, re-targeting and blending, but it mostly leaves the hand keying to other applications like Max and Maya.
HumanIK (motionbuilder stuffed into Maya) is finally Maya's answer to biped, after all these years. I think its why Maya had to include quaternion calculations, otherwise all that re-targeting and blending is REALLY hard to do pull off, which is why Maya never really did it.
The biped method of using Quaternion made its way into a stand alone app. Once that heavy lifting was done it was in a format that could be stuffed into Maya. If it meant doing it from scratch they didn't want to put the time in and they never did. But the Mobo guys put in that time because they saw how flexible it can be.
So the thing you hate about biped, is MotionBuilders biggest strength. When you're praising MotionBuilder you're tipping your hat to biped. If you're complaining about biped, those problems also exist in MotionBuilder/HumanIK. You give up a little to gain something else. If what you're giving up is important to your workflow then you shouldn't give it up, especially if what you gain isn't important to you.
Either way I wouldn't assume there is a better way to handle it and that everyone you're about to work with is doing it wrong. More than likely they've put a lot of thought into what they are doing and come up with an efficient way that works for them. Your job is to learn that first and make suggestions second. If you walk in firing off suggestions for everyone else to change so you don't have to, then it's not going to be well received. It happens quite often, don't be that guy.
As for looping, that is one area that biped doesn't do well. I personally wouldn't want to give up everything it does just to get out of range types style looping. I don't do a lot of cycles so it doesn't bother me but when I do need it to loop I'll get it as close as I can but then use motion flow to make the curves at the beginning and end match. It's not as friendly as editing in the editor but like I said I'm not going to give up everything else and invent my own rig just to get that.
I also find the in-place mode to be helpful because I like to animate walk and run cycles with the character moving through the scene but then preview it with in place mode. It's important because a walk looks different when moving and when it doesn't. Animating in-place makes that difference more profound. Give that up to get out of range curves? Maybe you're cool with it, I'm not so hot on the idea.
As for curves, just click a biped piece and set it from Quaternion to Euler, it's been included in max for 3-4 releases. Quaternion does have it's advantages, it will never gimbal lock, but Euler will. Luckily you can still use all of the great blending and clean up tools while set to Euler.
Don't underestimate the importance of one click rig generation. It can easily take weeks to create a rig from scratch. Even then there might be minor issues with it that don't crop up until much later. Recreating all of that functionality is kind of pointless when it's sitting right there, so a lot of people never bother to go down that route.
While that is kind of a noble pursuit, I find it deeply flawed. IF it speeds you up or gets rid of headaches, you should go for it.
Max and Maya are generalized tools that do a lot of things marginally well but rarely do they get specific enough for certain jobs. When you start to get into certain tasks it helps to have specific tools. Waiting for Autodesk to get off their rears and cook up tools they really don't understand, is a painful exercise in futility. Even if they see a burning need they often "generalize" the implementation.
yes probably. when I got an internship at my previous employer some years ago, I had never touched motionbuilder, only animated in maya.
I was very vocal about it for about a week or so.
but that's the difference I guess - which I'm also hoping I'll experience at this new place
that if I am in a team of animators who show me a proper workflow, then I'll come around
good thing animation is the same in all programs
just need to find the buttons that make it look the way I want it to
I handkey in motionbuilder all day!
even at work we used it for handkeying, I think it's great.. I mean you have your keyboard hotkeys (I hate autokey, have to use it in max because of the 3-4-5 different IK set key buttons) and a million tools, Move Keys for example is amazing..
and it stinks! :poly118:
oh yeah I'm sure of that.
and I can't wait for them to tell me what the heck that could be!
that the rest of the Maya/Motion builder using world is missing! :poly142:
yeah I was - to some minor extent, during my internship as I mentioned
believe me, I am sooooooo thrilled to get this job that I am going to shut my trap and do whatever they ask of me, however they want it done!
just the chance to work with those people - in that country never the less!
sound like a plan!
I'm not saying that I'm looking for a super smooth sollution to looping, doesn't need to be friendly or anything at all!
I am usually quite quick at working with any workflow.. be it having to open up some sort of motion flow, loading clips and blending them around to get a loop, I can do that!
mtion builder already did it!!!
I remember doing that at first.. got some weeeeeeeeird funky curves from it though..
I'll give it another go!
thank again for throwing around ideas!
very fun!
(even if you're all wrong!! MOBUILDER FO LYFE SON!)
edit:
changing to Euler helped the loop a bit
Pos Curve is still TCB though, can't seem to get any handles there
ooooooooh well, we'll see what they can show me at the job!