Math is needed!
polycounter lvl 17
Saw this gif, and it is so true! Even tho I studied a lot of math when i was growing I don't think I've studied enough as I should. Now i suffer.
I actually think that companies are doing a good job putting their efforts to teach kids and people how to code and simply show how important it is to do so...
http://code.org/
I actually think that companies are doing a good job putting their efforts to teach kids and people how to code and simply show how important it is to do so...
http://code.org/
Replies
Personally i don`t have a very deep understanding of math but i can use vectors, matrices and their operations etc just fine when theres a visual result tied to what i`m doing with them (nodebased shaders are a good example of this).
Also for a lot of coding you won`t really be using advanced math so i wouldn`t just tie the two of them together as if they`re one and the same.
People sometimes feel as if they couldn`t start learning to code because they didn`t learn any math so i `m just saying that they shouldn`t feel crippled by this.
that being said , math is very important and i also regret being lazy during my teen years but nothing is stopping me from learning it now
also khan academy is a great resource for those who are interested in learning more
https://www.khanacademy.org/
An artist using Maya needs to just know simple arithmetic, whereas a low-level graphics/rendering programmer needs to know a shitload more.
What is true on other hand, you should be able to learn and understand new things as you go, because you will never know what you will need in future. That is why you need basics and some math-logical-order mind set.
I really believe that most school do not teach math in proper way. They learn how to solve equations (which at some point is mindless process, where you just put numbers in right places), but they do not teach real applications of math, or it used to solve various problems. In other words they do no teach kids how to think.
I personally recommend Khan Academy. It's good for learning new things, or to check on old ones. I never never really completely understood concept of matrices, until I watched Khan videos. (that said I again forgotten some things, because I rarely used them, but I'm confident that after quick check on things I could make some matrix math again).
In the U.S., the biggest issue with Math education, imo, is that too many teachers rely on straight memorization to get their students through the material. "Times Tables" are a perfect example: they teach you to refer to a chart rather than perform the operation. In high school we were flooded with anecdotes about how an equation worked rather than why. The result was great test scores without the students actually comprehending the material.
I've been modeling and coding for years now and I have yet to use anything more complicated than the most basic concepts of trigonometry yet I just bombed a math final in my university.
Schools (at least in the U.S.) do nothing but teach theoretical knowledge and this is almost always useless in the real world. If schools wanted to actually increase interest in mathematics, they'd make everything more hands on and try to give an actual example of how the concept could be used outside of class. Most students think "Why the fuck should I care about math when it is completely useless?"
That being said, I think learning calculus is a good way to expand one's brain, but you still have to remember that it's no different from learning a new programming language, if you don't use it you lose it.
These two statements are conflicting. Your average person's grasp of mathematics usually doesn't extend much farther than rudimentary algebra; addition, multiplication etc - and even then it gets hairy when order of operation comes into account. If you're working with vectors and matrices, you already have that 'deeper understanding of math' that the majority of people do not have and forget a soon as they leave high school (if they progressed that far to start with).
If you're messing with Physics for just ragdolls and falling characters, which largely has been conquered by engine developers, you'll STILL need maths. You'll need to set up actor hit reactions based on projectile speed and force. Otherwise, you get Skyrim RC1.0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-hKxOhOQ3U SPAAAAAACE!
Overgrowth's new animation system uses physics calculations not just for Havok ragdolls, but in the actual lifting of limbs transferring force into their soft body targets. That's a huge nerd boner for me, something I've always wanted to play with, especially since making mods for Oni back in the early 2000s: http://www.wolfire.com/overgrowth
TLDR - Learn Calculus, pay attention in Physics class!
Now a better thread: What role does SCIENCE play in games? Geology class for Environment Artists in Desert Biomes with Dr.Thaiauxn anyone? Ah, no, okay.
I think teaching people the theory is much better than how to so something, and schools could do well teaching some Java or python or something even in high school.
I never learned about vectors or matrices in highschool, i only got the theory in university and i was really lost since they assumed i did learn it before.
I had real problems trying to learn the theoretical parts, but once i started using them in scripting it wasn`t a problem since you don`t need to really know how to multiply matrices or vectors for example, you just do it without knowing whats going on in the background.
for example rotation controllers in 3d packages. you might be using those rotational values in scripting without even realizing if its euler or quaternions values you`re working with. All you`re doing is multiplying them while the conversions and operations often are all done in the background.
I`m not saying not knowing whats going on in the background is a good thing but it shouldn`t keep you from coding and using mathematical operations if that makes any sense at all :P
and if you don't apply it in your art (which is possible I guess) you can at least apply it in your budgeting, if you can budget and plan your money goes much much further.
There is an additional benefit for studying math, physics, and programming. When I was in college the vast majority of students majoring in sociology, education, etc. did not have to spend nearly as much time doing homework as those few of us majoring in mathematics, physics, and programming did. You learn how to organize, focus, problem-solve, and persevere. You also must produce results. Those skills and habits benefit any future endeavors.
The best game artists may not need to know much practical mathematics, but they got good by paying their dues in a similar fashion. The same goes for good riggers and technical artists.
Too many students cannot master the necessary discipline to see a task through to the end. They seek the path of least resistance or give up in frustration. There is a reason that good programmers, technical artists, and artists get paid as much as they do. Good programmers and artists wear their skill on their sleeves and finish what they start.
Pure maths gets a bit weird IMO.
http://video.app.msn.com/watch/video/aptitude-test-cheater/17w08siva
It is not that much about math, and more about right mind set.
Math is just one of the ways of attaining it.
Also when you learned a lot of math you change the way you think about stuff. Simple equations become something more than just number or letters. You start to see sense in it and attach a 'story' to those numbers and letters... I grew up with math though. I imagine that when you are 20 something and you lack proper math background it may seem hard. Math requires imagination. Polycount seems to be a full of imaginative people :P
If you want to create a model, a shader, animate and code their animation and create movement on that character, you already need math... What if you want to understand what Euler and Quaternion means, what if you want to create a rim light shader with world direction fog on that character, what if you want to create an IK/FK rig for it.
All I'm trying to say is if developers that are willing to go ahead of their selves instead of ONLY doing art or coding, what if they want to script their own melscripts, what if they want to create their own shaders.
For begginners it's really hard to achieve that by asking someone else. Usually because they can't explain a programmer what they want on their shader to achieve. Or because the programmer doesn't understand what kind of tool you need. And believe me, most of artists/programmers are not willing to listen to what you need unless you are clear.
I don't in the near future want to depend on someone else to do what I need at the moment I need. It's a choice I guess...
This thread is for the ones that want to go further. And that's why I think for ME math is needed.
I've been meaning to give my 2 cents here. This gif is kind of wrong because for one; Many Autodesk products require a fair amount of maths, and second "make video games," unless you specify, this conveys an understanding of you doing everything on your own to make a video game, which requires you to have an extensive amount of knowledge in maths, even when using Unity and Autodesk Maya.
Every part of art is based on maths; For example: Remember the lines you draw or block out a character using cubes and circles or square, that is an untold math.
You play with numbers while using the Node editors and move an object in a space of maya on XYZ location thats math as well.
you code and use a float for the bullets of the gun you are holding.
Populating AI using conditions and maths.
Hell even a dumbest guessing game you code requires maths.
EDIT: What you should worry about is AFTER MATH..
now you have my 2 cents. Enjoy
And Target_Renegade, we use math not maths in the US
Math is needed, but learning it is as soon as possible is not as important as learning to be self-driven and the _logics_ of programming games.
And not to forget, there's a bunch of non-complex games that has even been released on steam such as dear esther or to the moon.
As an artist I think linear algebra comes in handy when creating shaders, but with node based editors it's easy enough to just fiddle around until things look right.
Stanford's Machine Learning and AI courses really opened my eyes to the real magic, power, and possibility of advanced math. I wish I had been exposed to those ideas and concepts or even just the existence of such things when I was a kid. It probably would've altered the path I chose to take in life.
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This course seems somewhat relevant to the discussion:
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I absolutly agree!
Codin some math stuff is in my opinion a good way to train coding and math skills because it goes hand in hand.
I work as a tech artist in the military simulation field, so when I'm not making tanks and such my job often involves scripting tools. Today I needed to write a script which required a certain amount of knowledge in trigonometry to complete. It took me, an engineer, and another programmer about 3 hours to completely solve. I consider it a very good day because problems like it are not only useful for single purpose applications, but can often be re-applied to other tools in the future (and I've already got another use for this specific formula in mind).
Anyone who wants to be a tech artist or programmer should learn as much as they can about math. Learning to code isn't hard, anyone can do it, but without math some things just wont be possible.