Winter Sonja

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Swizzle polycounter lvl 10
Warning: Boobs ahead
So don't read it if you work in a preschool or seminary or whatever.

Since Red Sonja is pretty much the only character I've never seen an interesting reinterpretation of, I've decided to try my hand at making one.

Also, because I'm irritated at the tendency for every single female character in video games to look like the same goddamn character with a different hair color, I want to play around with proportions and stuff.

Enough talk! Pictures!

A few of the refs I'm pulling from:
BfB2Euf.jpg

The pretty shitacular concept sketch I'm loosely basing the model on:
VQNzS.jpg

El Zebrusho:
2Fedwfa.jpg

iN4u6gq.jpg

This is still extremely unfinished and unrefined, but that's super okay.

I have a few specific goals with this character.

1. Make a female character that doesn't completely suck. Heh.
2. Push some pretty unorthodox proportions and shape language.
3. Make a reinterpretation of Red Sonja in actual clothing that's still readable as the classic character.
4. Avoid things like high heels, metal bikinis, and other equally useless bullshit.

Regarding 1:
I've started and abandoned tons of female characters in the past, though mainly because I felt like I lacked the skills to really approach making an appealing and attractive female character. I recently stopped giving a fuck about whether or not I could at the moment and decided that I'm going to teach myself how to do it instead of being a wimp.

2:
I'm a big fan of Lokman Lam's Kingdom Death concepts; they have a lot more mass and meat on them than most concept art of female characters do, and that's fuckin' peachy-keen. I want to throw a little of that style into this by giving her some thickness in her limbs and really exaggerated hip proportions. In addition to that, I really want to push for a different face shape than people are used to seeing in female game models. There's a vast number of facial shapes that people completely ignore because they aren't "ideal," and that's just goofy as shit.

3:
It still boggles my mind, but the closest I've seen to a reinterpretation of the Red Sonja character is the one with the blue fur in my reference image above. And that was just in a few comics, not in some sort of fan art. I'm frankly astonished that somebody hasn't taken the initiative to blast out an awesome fully clothed yet still sexy Red Sonja.

4:
Metal bikinis are stupid.




More stuff to come. I'm going to go pretty in-depth with some analysis of stuff like proportions and how I can improve in my next few posts.

I'd also like to provide the WIPs as downloads just like I did with my Showdown entry, though this is so unfinished at the moment that something along those lines seems silly right now.

Replies

  • Hayden Zammit
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    Hayden Zammit polycounter lvl 8
    Looking sweet already. Looking forward to more.

    I like the idea of more thickness, like in that concept you linked to. I think Frazetta's females were always so much more interesting because of their thickness.
  • butt_sahib
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    butt_sahib polycounter
    dayum!
    +1 for the thicker proportions! Looking hot
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    This shit gonna get real good ! Can't wait to see that.


    Ps. love your style of writing. Kinda like Cracked.com :)
  • Muzzoid
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    Muzzoid polycounter lvl 8
    Swizzle Swizzle he's our man if he can't do it, no-one can!
  • afisher
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    afisher polycounter lvl 6
    I'm liking this thread already. Great start man
  • SimonT
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    SimonT polycounter lvl 11
  • Johan3043
    Subs for boobs. Nah but great work man, looking forward to see the progress! :)
  • SsSandu_C
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    SsSandu_C polycounter lvl 7
    Quite hard to get past the first image in the thread but I got to the sculpt images eventually. Really nice proportions and shapes. A good starting point.
  • Di$array
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    Di$array polycounter lvl 5
    Swizzle man! This is going to be great and I'm loving the new "realistic" approach to the armour/custom design you're taking with this character.

    Plus those proportions will be super sexy close and far away! Keep at it bud. Looking forward to more.
  • Tits
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    Tits mod
    I'm loving what I see so far, following the thread :)
  • I Like Feet
    Very nice. Can't wait to see the finish product.

    I like 'em thick! /tosh.0
  • A-Train
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    A-Train polycounter lvl 8
    Swizzle! You're dope man. I can't wait to see it. I'm following the thread.
  • barnesy
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    barnesy polycounter lvl 7
    I really like your concept and the exaggerated proportions, especially the thighs.

    At the moment is seems like her hips are too wide for her legs which makes her crotch massive. I think if you gave the upper inner thighs a bit more meat and add some more junk to her trunk to balance the lower half out.

    Just look at KK's legs, there is barely space between the legs.

    kim-kardashian-bathing-suit-e1284989568241.jpg

    Keep it up :)
  • EiGHT
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    EiGHT polycounter lvl 7
    This shits gettin' SUBB'D!!
    Great job so far!
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 6
    This is gonna be great!
    Subscribed!
    One thing that has helped me sculpt thicker females, maybe it'll work for you, instead of sculpting "anatomy details" like the muscle landmarks,etc,etc...just think of them altogether(muscle and fat) as a big shape with attention to the contour. If that makes sense.

    Gonna keep my eyes on this!
  • electricsheep
    Swizzle wrote: »
    DIS THREAD GOTS BOOBS, YO.
    So don't read it if you work in a preschool or seminary or whatever.

    Hahah... could've done with that advice in the thread title (like NSFW), before I opened it.... which I did, in work!

    You might wanna check out the Heavy Metal comics for some inspiration maybe, although that might prove to be a little cliche.

    Anyway, dude I'm certainly looking forward to how this turns out.
  • Der Hollander
    Hey Swizz, can I ask how you're pulling out the forms of the body, did you start with the head and just pull the body out using Dynamesh, or something different?
  • ScudzAlmighty
    Extra props for Tiffani Amber Thiessen in your ref :poly121:

    Good start so far, the face has a nice "toughness" to it without being overly masculine. I think Barnsey is right about the thighs too. Full figured women don't tend to have much if any gap between the legs and aside from just looking odd, right now your's feels like the source of every "yo momma's huge vibrator" joke ever told.

    If you haven't seen it already this figure has some pretty solid shapes in the proportions I think you're looking for.
  • Illusionart
  • bounchfx
    so ready for this, looking forward to seeing your interpretation man!
  • Jigsaw
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    Jigsaw polycounter lvl 10
    This'll be awesome. Loving that rough sculpt already!
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 10
    butt_sahib, PyrZern, Muzz, afisher, SimonT, Johan3043, SsSandu_C, Tits, I Like Feet, A-Train, EiGHT, bounchfx, Jigsaw:
    Thanks a ton!

    Hayden Zammit:
    I agree! Frazetta's women are wonderfully proportioned and have a ton of style.

    Di$array:
    I think you're right about the proportions looking good both close and far away; I'm going to be trying to really exaggerate a ton of things so it all reads well, so hopefully that will mean the character reads nicely from a distance.

    barnesy, ScudzAlmighty:
    You're definitely right about the gap between her thighs, though I'm going to be addressing this soon. I'm not aiming for something extremely realistic, but this is still something that I'm keeping well in mind.

    spiderDude:
    That's a really useful tip! I've been trying to think of things in general, overall shapes, though I don't have a lot of experience making female models and I may be focusing on details too much.

    electricsheep:
    Yikes. I did toss around the idea of putting NSFW in the thread title, but that always just comes across as kind of attention whore-ish. Maybe I'll get some helpful mod to change the thread title for me.

    Der Hollander:
    The head was started from the base Mudbox head mesh. I sculpted a bunch and then used Zsketch to add hair shapes. After that, I did a super simple Zsphere body and just kind of mushed it around until it had good general shapes. After that, I Dynameshed the whole body and continued pulling stuff around. The head and body are currently separate pieces.










    Let's talk about proportions!

    Tons of representations of women these days are based on a very specific body shape. If you look at comics, video games, or any other related art field, you're going to see women who are super skinny with gigantic boobs and almond-shaped heads. It's sexy, it sells, and it's not super challenging because a bunch of work is done for you already. You just need to copy some comic illustration and you're good to go. In addition to comics for reference, you can also use that handy-dandy resource known as porn! Porn's full of skinny chicks with gigantic knockers.

    Okay, so why does this matter? Because using porn and other artists' representations of women has had a homogenizing effect on how women are portrayed in games and other related stuff. Porn and comics are unrealistic representations of what people look like, so they don't give the variety of proportion and just general weirdness that comes from using real people or different styles as reference points.

    There are two specific things I want to mention regarding proportions and shapes. These are height and head shape.



    Height

    Height of characters is a big sticking point for a lot of artists. Typical Western "heroic" proportions for a human character dictate that they be in the neighborhood of 8-8.75 heads high, as illustrated in the ever-so-popular How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way:

    Md223Gf.jpg

    [Note: The same vertical proportions are given for both male and female characters in this book, and these guidelines are also visible in other artists' work.]

    That's just great if you want to make superheroes, gods, and bad caricatures of Greek statues. If you want a character that's going to look unique, though, you're going to need to look at some of the weirdness that comes along with using real people as a reference.

    [Side note: I'm not putting Marvel comics or How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way down by any means. The book is a great resource for learning some very basic and fundamental drawing skills, and it's a good place to look if you want to brush up on some basic perspective and gesture.]

    Check out this chick:

    D5OMN5k.jpg

    She's super skinny and she looks like she's pretty close to female superhero proportions until you actually start measuring things. Not only is she shorter than a typical superhero, but she's a FULL HEAD LENGTH shorter. Just judging from the scale of her head in reference to the rest of her body, she appears to be a tall woman, yet she's nowhere near superhero height.

    Here are a couple of girls from the 360° Nude References thread:

    1v8MIv5.jpg

    YV0u4Et.jpg

    One's only about six and a half heads high, the other's just barely over seven. In addition, there are noticeable differences in the locations of the belly buttons, the bottom of the crotch, the locations of the knees, and the size of their heads in comparison to the rest of their bodies.

    Here we have Alessandra Ambrosio, a Victoria's Secret model:

    xY9LKI2.jpg

    Even supermodels don't come close to that idealized superhero proportion; the long, thin lines of this woman are still contained in a body that's barely seven heads high.

    Finally, let's take a look at Tricia Helfer:

    qffDdrZ.jpg

    Here's an actress who's above-average height for a woman and easily as tall as - or taller than - a good number of the male cast of Battlestar Galactica, and she's still only about seven heads tall. Granted, there are film tricks you can use to make people appear larger onscreen, but she's obviously very tall judging from other available sources.

    What's to be learned from looking at all this? Simple; there's at least a full head's height you can play with when adjusting the height and overall proportions of a character to fit with whatever style you're trying to create a character in. Obviously there's even more than that if you're doing work that's highly stylized.



    Head Shape

    Character head shape in popular media is another area in which less and less variation can be seen, at least where representation of female characters is concerned. This is a problem because it becomes very difficult to tell female characters apart using only their facial features, so secondary characteristics like the color of their hair or the various jewelry they might be wearing become the identifying factors used to differentiate them.

    The characters in this image, while pretty cool, all fall into the same problem I've described:

    XrAyv0E.jpg

    If you shaved their heads and stood them next to each other, chances are they'd be indistinguishable. Frank Cho is a really good artist, but in this image he's just played dress-up three times with the same character.

    What can be done to avoid falling into making the same characters over and over again? Here's an example I whipped up to lead to a possible solution:

    AhywMaE.jpg

    The photos in this image have all been resized and aligned so their eyes are roughly the same distance apart and rotated to the same angle. I've traced the outlines of their jaws and put markers where their eyes, mouth, bottoms of noses, and approximate tips of noses are. Look at how much variation there is in the placement of their noses and mouths, the shape of their jaws, and the overall shapes of their heads. Given that representing things in art often leads to exaggeration of features so that things like silhouette read better, it should be a no-brainer that variation in head shapes and proportions should be one of the first stops when trying to make a unique-looking character. Given that all, or at least most, of the women in the above image are generally considered attractive, there's zero reason that female characters' faces shouldn't look just as unique and interesting as their male counterparts.



    Let's talk about what I'm doing, and see if I can find some ways to improve.


    My model has some issues at the moment:

    SHKa0SJ.jpg

    The proportions don't match either the heroic stylized or the real human measurements at the moment. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, given how much variation is possible in body shapes, but it's not quite what I'd like for a number of reasons. Foremost among them is basic error checking; it becomes very difficult to check if you're completely fucking up if you don't have a good basis to work from. I want my model a little closer to heroic proportions because, well, she's goddamn Red Sonja. At the same time, I'm also referring back to a number of references with proportional and shape cues I'd like to hit.

    One of my main influences for this model is Lokman Lam's Kingdom Death drawings, as I mentioned in my first post. My model isn't currently hitting those kinds of proprtions, so I need to make some changes to try and bring my stuff closer to those drawings. One of the most prominent and cool things about the Kingdom Death stuff is how big the legs are, especially in relation to the width of the waist and shoulders. On several of the KD illustrations, the characters' thighs are actually thicker than their waists and their hips/thighs are much wider than their shoulders. Those are really cool features, but they also lead to some problems:
    1. What shape does the overall pelvic region take?
    2. What shape and size is her butt in relation to the rest of her body?
    3. If I do use very similar proportions, how can I make sure that her butt and thighs don't just look like big blobs of fat?
    4. Because Red Sonja is supposed to be a warrior, it'd make sense for her to have muscle definition. How does that affect the proportional problems, and how can I incorporate musculature?
    There are other problems I'm running into as well, though more practical problems regarding some of the Kingdom Death stuff and how it could in general translate to 3D:

    npw3Cpz.jpg
    1. Real women with any sort of comparable measurements do not have a gap between their thighs.
    2. There are no back views of the characters, so things like back musculature, existence of Venus dimples, along with size and shape of the butt are open to interpretation.
    3. How do you make a 3D character with such extreme proportions while still keeping things appealing and believably constructed?
    Luckily, better artists than I have tackled this set of problems. I now get to shamelessly rip off people like Hazardous!



    There'll be a little less analysis and a little more WIP junk in my next post.
  • LRoy
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    LRoy polycounter lvl 6
    this is a really great breakdown dude. will help me a lot personally. thanks for doing your homework!
  • Marshal Banana
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    Marshal Banana polycounter lvl 11
    Don't forget about Chun-Li when you're thinking about the musculature.
  • spiderDude
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    spiderDude polycounter lvl 6
    Swizzle you are 100% right about female characters faces in comics, games, etc.
    The pinup sculpts I have been doing I've noticed that problem regarding the faces.

    As far as the KD style goes, maybe a happy medium between real proportions and that style is ideal.

    Also I didn't know we had a 360 thread, I'm not sure if this is on there but I have gathered 360 refs of Brazilian Samba dancers. They all have thick thighs and have that meaty feeling I think you're looking for, might be useful to you.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zzt35g4pe6577zi/SambaDivas360.rar
  • amile duan
    It seems that you are really good at making female characters,they are so hot!
  • Der Hollander
    Swizzle, you may be interested in the gallery of the 35mm Kingdom Death figures, as well as Hazardous' sculpts he did for them in order to get a 360 view of the proportions.

    I'm loving the analysis and thought processes you're putting into the posts and your characters, keep up the good work!
  • BTolputt
    That post regarding the lack differences between comic characters was, whilst not new, nicely detailed enough it has hit my bookmarks. Subscribing to thread now :)
  • BTolputt
    Damn it - subscribed THIS time. Sorry for the noise folks :(
  • Sebeuroc
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    Sebeuroc polycounter lvl 7
    Luckily, better artists than I have tackled this set of problems. I now get to shamelessly rip off people like Hazardous!

    Haha, learning from one if the best is the way to go.
  • WDewel
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    WDewel polycounter lvl 5
    This thread makes me very happy, and great work so far. Thank you for being one of the few to challenge the idea of this all-inclusive, physically impossible, perfectly ideal woman. There are so many body types and proportions that can be attractive. It reminds me of Sailor Moon, where you can change almost any character into another by a couple of quick color swaps. Real people have strengths and flaws. No one has a low body fat percentage, gigantic breasts, toned legs, AND a big ass (well, maybe with surgery?) It's like the "Perfect Woman" diagram. The face on the bottom is gorgeous, no doubt, but so are the women on the top row. They are beautiful, but flawed; and more memorable because of it. Thanks for sharing your research with us, and I'm definitely subscribing!
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 10
    LRoy:
    I figure that the more research I do, the more I can improve my own work. If I share everything I learn, then maybe I can improve a bunch of other people's work as well. Hopefully that's the case!

    Marshal Banana:
    Oh, definitely. Chun-Li's general proportions and attitude are a really great reference point for something like this.

    spiderDude:
    You've actually nailed the sort of style I'm aiming for; I certainly want to get some exaggeration from KD, but with a touch of real-world flavor. I think that link of yours was posted in the reference thread, but I'd have to double check.

    amile duan:
    That's a pretty huge compliment considering how few I've done!

    Der Hollander:
    I've actually looked through the gallery and through Haz's work repeatedly and I have a bunch of stuff in my reference folder that's directly related.

    BTolputt:
    Thanks!

    Sebeuroc:
    Oh, absolutely. Haz has some done absolutely fantastic work and I'm a huge admirer of how well he can nail some really tricky forms with such apparent ease. He seems to apply the Bob Ross "happy little trees" methodology to sculpting the female form, and I've no idea how the hell he does it.

    WDewel:
    Thanks! This is really one area of computer graphics in general that's really been bugging me for the past few years, and I felt like a lot of people were talking about doing something weird or different without actually making anything. Granted, I'm still going to be making a somewhat generic hot chick by the time this is all over, especially considering that it's freakin' Red Sonja, but I'm hoping that I can at least make something that's pretty interesting.




    I've been extremely busy with a bunch of work for Neverwinter (which you guys should totally play when it comes out, because it's hilariously fun), so I haven't had a ton of time to work on this, but I do have a couple of things I've been wanting to talk about.

    I want to expand a little on my last post and really get into the how and why of the choices I've made regarding the facial structure of this character. I know that the face is really the first thing that people look at when assessing another person, so this is actually the area I wanted to focus on the longest when creating this character.

    There are a lot of artists right now who are making absolutely beautiful female characters for both high-end cinematic CG and video games, but I feel like they're all falling into the same sort of style, as I mentioned in my last post. While there are various aspects of this, a lot of it really just comes down to the silhouette and just general larger shapes of the head.

    Because female characters, aside from maybe a few in the Mass Effect series, are almost always depicted with long hair, it's very difficult to get a read on their overall head shape in the same way you can with a lot of the short-haired male characters in video games. This leads to the major differences only being in the structure of individual facial features instead of large proportional changes in the head like you might see in something like Team Fortress 2's character lineup. In addition, these artists are limited in that they need to make their characters very attractive, and the easiest way to do this is to have soft, round features and very subtle shape changes.

    Because these artists are restricted by these two criteria - long hair and subtle features - a lot of the characters end up looking very similar, especially in a particular area that really defines the overall shape of the head no matter the sex of the character: The jawline.

    Here are a few examples of really well-done characters that nevertheless have similar jaw structure:

    dn7w2lb.jpg

    These are all pieces by popular and highly skilled artists, and I think every one of these is a strong piece, yet I feel that these characters could easily have been differentiated by using the same techniques those artists might use to define a unique male face. Large scale shape and proportion changes are one of the hallmarks of creating stylized characters, yet even the most popular artists still avoid this in a lot of their female characters because it's extremely difficult to manage both attractiveness and distinctive features.

    I've decided to take a different approach and use the previous restriction of long hair to support the facial features of my character:

    HtbHohU.jpg

    My character's jawline is almost comically square. I knew going into this project that I wanted my character's face to be different, but we're getting dangerously close to manly territory here. To combat the manly look my character tends to have with such a strong jawline, I've used the shapes of the hair to counteract this effect. By having shapes and angles that go in the opposite direction as the jaw, I can draw the eye away and use the optical illusion the hair creates to make it seem as if the jawline is much softer. Combining long hair with shapes that counteract the shape of the jaw lets me make the jawline and overall facial shape distinctive while retaining a feminine feel. Hopefully. I may just be pulling stuff out of my ass, but I like to think I'm not full of shit.

    Here are a couple more shots of the full character. Still needs a bunch of work. Also hands.
    uUmXH07.jpg




    In my next post, I'm going to be talking about everybody's favorite topic: BOOBIES!
  • ZacD
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    ZacD interpolator
    I feel like her thighs could crush my skull. I really like the strong and wide jaw, people often avoid that in women because "soft features and pretty and feminine".
  • Abrvpt
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    Abrvpt polycounter lvl 4
    Relly great progress Swizzle ! I share your ideas about female models, they fall in stereotypes too easily. As you said, it's more difficult to make an attractive woman while choosing strong facial features. And from what I'm seeing, you're doing well ! She really looks like a woman at the first glimpse, not a transvestite.
    You're also doing very well on the body, I especially like the fact that you didn't fall in the trap of doing the knees too thin.
    Keep up the excellent job mate !
  • JohnnyRaptor
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    JohnnyRaptor polycounter lvl 9
    i forsee this thread will be full of win and covered in hot fresh awesomesauce!
  • Malus
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    Malus polycounter lvl 11
    I love the direction you are going with the face man.
    There is a strong caricatured resemblance to Minnie Driver and Nadia Bjorlin. :)

    http://www.moviepilot.de/files/images/0486/5914/Minnie_Driver.jpg
    http://www.womenlargejaw.com/sites/www.womenlargejaw.com/files/women/Nadia%20bjorlin%205_1348741866.jpg

    I hope you don't mind but I did a pretty crap paint-over.

    ...disclaimer:
    I know you are going for a more pushed style but my brain got stuck. lol
    Also, the bewbs are bigger only because I was trying to fill the ribcage out and it was easier. :poly108:


    48uUfOF.gif
  • CactusFantastico
    Yeah I would definitely agree with Malus on this, especially when it comes to the gap between the legs. With a waist that wide there would be no gap between the legs which is good because it looks way better :P
  • Eric Chadwick
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 10
    ZacD:
    What can I say? I likes me some thighs.

    Abrvpt, JohnnyRaptor:
    Thanks!

    Malus:
    Even though I've never found Minnie Driver terribly attractive, she certainly was influential in getting a stronger jawline for this character. I don't know if I've ever heard of Nadia Bjorlin, though she's very attractive!
    As for the paintover, it's actually super awesome! As you mentioned, I'm going for a more stylized look, but that paintover's actually very useful because it shows where I can push proportions further.

    CactusFantastico:
    While I definitely agree that no woman with proportions even close to these would have such a pronounced gap between her thighs, I really do want to push for some extreme stylization and a sexy look. I know that a lot of people don't find the gap as attractive, but I like it when it's combined with some extreme proportions. I think the problem right now is that it doesn't look fitting for the proportions of the model, so I'm definitely going to have to adjust the width and height of the gap until it feels right. This may just involve inflating the insides of the thighs a touch, or it could require a little more careful restructuring. I'm very well aware of the problem, though.

    Eric Chadwick:
    Super awesome! Thanks!






    Now it's time to talk about...

    reVjzY4.jpg

    Breasts are difficult. There are a ton of reasons why, but I think one of them is simply that there are so many personal preferences involved in how people depict them. Some people really like breasts to be small, others like them large. Lots of people like natural breasts, while a smaller portion actually enjoy the look of implants. People like all kinds of different breast shapes. Round, flat, big, small, perky, saggy, soft, firm, pointed, sloped, light nipples, dark nipples, big nipples, small nipples, flat nipples, puffy nipples. There's an entire spectrum of breast position preferences. Breasts come in a rainbow of colors, a variety of shapes and sizes. There's something for everybody.

    5evpQrE.gif

    Red Sonja is a highly sexualized character, and that usually leads to large, perky breasts in depictions of her because it's the easiest target to hit when aiming for sexy for a large slice of the population. This leads me to some problems. I don't want to tread the same ground that every artist before me has covered, but I also do want to make something that does fit the general Red Sonja mold simply for the sake of recognizability. So I've decided that yes, she'll have large breasts. However, what would Sonja's breasts actually look like? Let's look at who she is for this depiction:
    1. Clothed. Leather and furs are going to make an appearance here.
    2. Stylized. I'm exaggerating proportions for the fun of it.
    3. A warrior. She's going to be swinging a sword around and killing dudes.
    1 means that I don't have a ton of leeway when it comes to showing off her breasts, so the way I make the clothing is going to play a large part in how I create these breasts. 2 means I can get away with some cheating as far as how clothing fits, but it still has to have some sort of verisimilitude; I can't completely break the laws of physics just to show off some tits. 3 means she's probably not going to be showing off all her vital organs for anybody to see, but she also exists in the same universe as Conan, so something like a tight shirt or jacket would probably work well.

    Also, Red Sonja would never wear a bra. This means a certain amount of perkiness is going out the window.

    Where does this leave me? Here:

    ytdLoIM.jpg

    Women who wear bras and women who don't (or who wear bras that don't push up and out) both tend to have a very specific look to their breasts. Breasts in a bra are a bit more controlled and they often have a bit of push from the bottom to either make the breasts perkier or to even out size differences between the two breasts, which is very common. Breasts that aren't constrained by a bra seem a little more free and bouncy, and the shape of the breast along with the presentation of cleavage are very different from breasts in a bra. This is especially evident with large breasts as women's shirts tend to bunch up underneath the breast. This is the look I want to go for with Sonja.

    How can I do this? Open up my porn bookmar--

    Er...

    "Do research."

    The internet is a vast treasure trove of boobies and related anatomical wonders. I went looking for examples of breasts that fit the profile of what I'm looking for. And what I'm looking for is large, natural(ish)-looking breasts that would fit well on a character who is braless and whose shirt accentuates the shape of the breast. Here's a sample of some I'm using for reference:

    b76aMNH.jpg

    When looking at these references, it's obvious that large breasts have a specific shape and a strong consistent behavior. They are very affected by gravity, so they tend to flatten and conform to the shape of the ribcage. They are not just domes on the surface of the chest, but a more elongated, flattened teardrop shape that follows the contour of the ribs and pectoral muscles. The nipples tend to pount slightly up and out from the chest, there's often a strong overlap where the bottom of the breast meets the lower ribcage, and more of the breast tends to roll across to the side of the chest. There's also often a much more pronounced divide between the breasts at the center than there is with smaller, flatter breasts.

    This leads me to my model. I'd been trying to nail the large, braless breast shape for a while, but it really helped to look very carefully at what makes breasts do the things they do before I could get a good feel for how the model's breasts should look. They're still not as refined as I want and they still need a lot of tweaking and massaging before I'll be completely satisfied with them, but some fairly subtle changes made a very big difference in the impression you get when looking at them:

    qNzSYAr.jpg

    Here's an animation to get a better idea of the differences between the old breast shape and the new:

    gVd8zsu.gif

    Once again, the differences are subtle, but those small changes hopefully help to add a lot more weight and flexibility to some previously gravity-defying breasts.



    In my next post, I'm going to (hopefully) have at least most of the retopologized high-poly model, and a download link so you can take a look at my work without having to rely on screenshots I post. 3D models for everybody!
  • WDewel
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    WDewel polycounter lvl 5
    So many boobs! :D Looking good so far. She would definitely have big ones with those thighs, I think you could get away with even larger.
    they still need a lot of tweaking and massaging before I'll be completely satisfied

    aaahahahaha
  • Swizzle
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    Swizzle polycounter lvl 10
    I'm going to pretend that was intentional and just move on.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 11
    are you going for natural breasts (lot of your references have implants as far as i can tell)?

    for breasts with that size and shape the nipples would never ever point upward that high unless they are implants. nipples would either point almost horizontal and located below center of gravity of breasts.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    When collecting .. ahem, references, I find it hard to realize which are natural and which are implant... >_>"

    I like your research, and your presentation :P
    Keep it up !!
  • crazyfool
    Looking good, I think shes looking slightly off from the side though, where her sternocleidomastoids meet her collar bone comes out too far and her ribs are too wide in profile, if you hide her arms it may be clearer. At the moment she looks like shes arching her back and pushing the boobs out and up slightly but still with a neutral back pose. If you follow her rib cage down to her abs you will see its quite far out.

    keep going though dude :)
  • SA_22
  • Sk0LLiE
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    Sk0LLiE polycounter lvl 5
    Thanks so much for looking into this.
    I am also getting so very tired of how all female models in games are homogenizing down to one central character with big boobs, long legs, huge hips, flat stomach and the same teardrop face with doey eyes. It really switches me off when I see these characters now.
    Looking forward to more, great stuff!
  • Iciban
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    Iciban polycounter lvl 6
    what an interesting thread! Cool how you explain every detail and what to look for. And all those ref pics....hahah had to scroll down fast cause i'm at work. Dont' want people to get the wrong idea. XD
    I totally get where ur going at. A lot of female characters tend to have that face shape. Big fan of Lam's character concepts. Totally following this!
  • nyx702
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    nyx702 Polycount Sponsor
    I liked the part where you posted pictures of boobs.
  • daphz
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    daphz polycounter lvl 7
    This is a great thread man. Lot's of good ref and discussion! I'm digging the wide jaw. I think the hair frames her face well though so it works.

    I agree with crazyfool about how she looks in profile though. Also I think malus is right about the ribcage, maybe it could be a little wider from the front.

    Keep goin man! you gonna do a low poly/texture too?
  • n88tr
    I know I'm gonna get dumped on but isn't this just an excuse to look at softcore porn? I mean really when do u need to model a fully nude woman for a video game?
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