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3D Environment artst: I could really use some help on a "path"

Hi everyone.. I could really use some help. This may be a lengthy post but I'd like to try to provide as much info as possible to narrow down questions I might get,and save people the trouble of having to ask them.. skip down to the bold starting text for what I'm hoping to learn/get specifically without all the mumbo jumbo in case someone doesn't feel like reading through it all. (though i'd really appreciate it if it were read first)

I really want to be a 3D Environment Artist for video games, more specifically MMORPGS, with my favorite style being World of Warcraft. For the last week I've been trying to get to get into 3ds max (2013 version) but I feel as if I'm barely making any progress handling the program. From what I understand, MMO's and most games in general tend to stay low-poly (typically assets and such may be around 100-1500 tris with characters may be getting a bit more?).. as an environment artist, I haven't really cared about trying to learn how to model/texture characters since that wouldn't be my "field"..however, it seems every tutorial, article, or help file I read I'm easily finding a ton of content for next-gen character creation, animation, rigging and all that..but when it comes to my department (environments) i feel like it's hugely lacking...am i not looking in the right place?.. I've tried some Digital-Tutors videos, some 3DBuzz and scattered youtube videos, and an ebook called 3D Modeling for Games: Second Edition...but one of the biggest problems i keep running into is that differing versions or huge lacks of explanation (sometimes, and almost always at the most crucial points) keep leaving me scratching my head, because when they say to do something I can't find it anywhere, or they never go into detail enough what it is i'm supposed to do, or why it's being done..

1:) it's hard to find low poly modeling for environment models tuts, it seems just about every low-poly tut is for characters

2:) a lot (and boy do i mean a lot) of the tuts seem to just get you from point a to b, or start to finish, with not much explanation in between. yes, I can copy you but I feel as if i'm not really learning..

3:) My biggest complaint, is that a lot of the stuff I read/watch will tell me what to do next, and that's fine, but there's never a "why"... why am i using this tool? what else can it be used for? is there a reason I'm doing what i'm about to be told? Sure I could follow you, but is that the most effecient way to do something?

I know this sounds like a lot of complaining but I feel so lost, as if I can't find help for my specific needs..

main points and what/who im looking for:

3D Environment artists of this forum, specfically the ones that do a lot of low-poly modeling, I need your help the most.. As mentioned earlier I really love the style of World of Warcraft and would really like to model/texture my assets to be that sort of style, which from what I understand is low poly. I guess what I'm asking for is how do I go about learning to become a 3d environment artist for that style? should i learn all there is to about texturing first and stop touching 3ds max for now? should I get low poly modeling down first before worrying about texturing/uv mapping? Where can i learn in great, great detail what I need to know about environment modeling/texturing? What steps did you take to get to your current skill level, if you also do the same thing as im looking to do? I'm really hoping someone, anyone will read this and will understand what i mean, and get that sense of "ah...i've been there before" feeling, and will know exactly how I can go about approaching this. Again I know I'm complaining a lot but for the last week my head has been pounding since whenever I feel I'm starting to get an understanding, and ready to start making my own models, I almost instantly feel lost.

Thank you in advance everyone :(

Replies

  • Bek
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    Bek interpolator
    You need to start experimenting on your own. Pick something you think you know how to do, then try and do it. Question every step you take. If you don't have any idea how to get started on even simple things, then you're going to have to watch more tutorials.

    Try something really simple like making a crate or a cardboard box, do the UV's, and diffuse texture.

    Low poly tuts for characters can still help you. The principles are transferable. And a lot of the techniques will be. Look at the low poly thread here and see what others have made, and if they have wireframes, try and replicate their model. Then compare results.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    eat3d.com
    3dmotive.com
    cg.tutsplus.com
  • Gwee
    thank you both for the help, i guess i've just feeling a bit overwhelmed. I guess I've been looking too much for the "here's how you get to here from here" routes, but it's beginning to become apparent that everyone has their own unique workflow.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    I'll post up some tips when I have some free time, maybe in a day or two.

    In the mean time try making a small wow-like prop, like a crate or a barrel, post it up and ask for critiques.
  • Mr Whippy
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    Mr Whippy polycounter lvl 7
    Isn't it worth looking into the Zbrush pipeline if you are 'new' to things?

    Make a rough crate shape in 3ds max but don't worry too much about topology, just make it with pro boolean maybe... give it the appropriate 'style' you feel you need (ie, not perfect cube/square sides for the WoW style?)

    Then get to Zbrush, detail it up.

    Then do retopo work in Zbrush and bake out everything from there.



    There are tons of good threads on here that go through that workflow... and if anything it works even better for the WoW type MMPOWRHHGH style because you'll be tending to bake more into textures which is something that will make more sense again via Zbrush than Max.




    It won't come together easily. I'd try get a good book on game art design. Get one on props/environments/characters and appreciate the WHOLE workflow as it'll all be helpful in my view.


    This book looks good:

    [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0240815823/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE"]3ds Max Modeling for Games: Insider's Guide to Game Character, Vehicle, and Environment Modeling: Volume I: 1: Amazon.co.uk: Andrew Gahan: Books[/ame]


    If you 'look inside' it covers some sensible why and why nots, and works from concept through to a final piece which is very valuable.
    It covers sensible practice for not making resource hog assets and considerations around that etc.


    Generally I'd say almost all video tutorials I've seen are annoying and not good for learning.

    Stuff people write down is often better, along with pictures. You can skim increasingly as you learn more, so a tutorial can be 'read' in minutes rather than watching 60 mins in case you miss the key 30s of information at a few points in the video that explain the technique.


    So books and reading, and setting personal challenges.


    I quite like the idea of 1hr a day and set yourself mini-challenges. Draw a crate today, an oil drum tomorrow, challenge yourself, do something you don't necessarily want to do and come at it with fresh eyes rather than preconceptions on style etc.




    Also, do you want to be an artist who kinda takes concepts and works them up, or more the concept artist who has the initial ideas?

    If it's the latter then developing painting/drawing skills and refining ideas is probably more important than any 3D skills.

    Dave
  • Gwee
    Thank you Justin, before reading your suggestion I was already working on a model before I got back here but I will do that next. I also look forward to hearing your tips

    Dave, thank you for the lengthly and informative post. The only reason I'm currently trying to stick with 3DS Max and Photoshop is because on blizzard's page for 3d environment artist the preferred software is those two, but if there's software that is more geared towards this style and easier to use I wouldn't mind trying a different program either.

    As for the crate as I mentioned to Justin I went ahead earlier and already began modeling a pillar. it's in the tech talk forum, as I've already run into a snag. By the way, in terms of learning my understanding is you model a model, then you unwrap it, and then create the textures to be painted onto those templates. Would the best learning approach right now be mastering one thing at a time, as in get my modeling to where it's second-nature? or try to learn bits of each so they may come together for cleaner workflow while still in the modeling stage

    Thanks again everyone I really appreciate the help. It really does help
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 18
    work on your modeling but texturing is the most important skill. I would not recommend sculpting & baking, I don't know about Blizzard but you would get an F on your art test if you tried it where I'm at.
  • Gwee
    Thanks Justin, I'll start focusing on texturing. I have the ebook found here: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Game-Textures-Second-Professional-Photoshop/dp/B0086QJ2NQ/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347929220&sr=1-6&keywords=3d+game+textures"]3D Game Textures,Second Edition: Create Professional Game Art Using Photoshop 2nd Edition ( Paperback ) by Ahearn,Luke pulished by Focal Press: Luke Ahearn: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

    It looks good, I'm through chapter 1 and I'm currently enjoying reading it. My only worry is that this was published in 2009, and as it's currently 2012 I'm not sure what might be or if anything in this book is outdated, which I would assume so. He's released a third book, "third edition" released in 2011 found here: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Game-Textures-Third-Professional-Photoshop/dp/0240820770/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347929314&sr=1-1&keywords=3d+game+textures+third"]3D Game Textures,Third Edition: Create Professional Game Art Using Photoshop: Luke Ahearn: 9780240820774: Amazon.com: Books [/ame]

    Which I'm not sure if I should get
    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Game-Textures-Third-Professional-Photoshop/dp/0240820770/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347929314&sr=1-1&keywords=3d+game+textures+third"][/ame]
  • Eric Chadwick
    I would say focus on free tutorials. There are so many out there, especially for learning to paint textures.
    http://wiki.polycount.com/TexturingTutorials#Painting_Stylistic_Textures

    But the biggest thing is just work hard. It will take a lot of time and effort to become good. if you keep at it, you will get better.
  • Mr Whippy
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    Mr Whippy polycounter lvl 7
    work on your modeling but texturing is the most important skill. I would not recommend sculpting & baking, I don't know about Blizzard but you would get an F on your art test if you tried it where I'm at.

    I thought sculpting and baking was in vogue these days for plenty of environment art assets, at least where budgets are higher?

    I guess depending on the studio size you may do more or less of certain tasks too. Ie, concept artists might do blocking out and some level design, while in bigger studios each part is more split up... hmmmm...

    Do you have any work that you have done on environment artwork to show your process as I'm quite interested in what other methods are current :D


    We see loads of sculpting on here and baking down to final assets with a 6-8 channel texture lookup for fancy renderers, but it would be nice to see what other people are doing too.


    I generally do lots of baking from Max, so do low-poly and high poly together in Max and bake out normals, diffuse and AO etc from there... then I suppose tools like ndo2 can add in further normal detailing too without a full sculpt (i'll often draw my own height map and then generate normal map from that for example)


    But as said, I think if anyone is serious about this then books are a great resource... if people put stuff into actual print and it's getting good reviews it's pretty well guaranteed to be good material!

    Video tutorials can be very steady. I feel like I spend 1hr learning about 1 minutes worth of actual usable info with video tutorials. People telling me in a video for the millionth time how to draw a box or assign a material... you can't skim watch this stuff but you *can* skim read it :D

    Dave
  • WarrenM
    Video tutorials can be very steady. I feel like I spend 1hr learning about 1 minutes worth of actual usable info with video tutorials.
    I don't view that as a negative thing. If the guy is talking about something you already know, ALT+TAB away and keep listening to it in the background - switch back when your ears tell you that part is over with and he's doing something new. It's rare that I don't watch a tutorial and NOT learn something. Every little thing I learn makes me a little better and a little faster and that's well worth the time investment for me.

    Hell, even when they ARE doing something I already know I will often pick up a new shortcut key or a new way of using the UI that I didn't know about before.
  • Mr Whippy
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    Mr Whippy polycounter lvl 7
    I agree if I have the time to watch AND I know the author is a quality source. Video is an excellent format but the risk is that if they present badly it's worse than just writing it down with pictures!

    Videos like those by Andrew Cramer for After Effects are fantastic for example, some comedy, a really good format, a nice intro, assuming you have knowledge of the basics etc. He just gets on with it and does a nice 25min tutorial.


    If you can find good videos then use them, but each person will respond differently I think. Some video authors are really horrible and annoying :D

    Generally written/book content that is actually published to paper is generally always good and seems to work well for everyone.



    Dave
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